Bear defense pistols: .357 or .45acp. Pick one!
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BLACKHAWKNJ
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Jeff Cooper answered a reader "As much as I favor the .45, I wear a 44 in bear country."
trackskippy
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This is one of those things where you need to look at the big picture and not get tunnel vision on any one part of it.
A heavier caliber might be a better choice if youre hunting, have time, and what youre shooting isnt really a threat to you. But if you cant in an instant, shoot it on demand quickly, repetitively, and accurately under stress, its probably not what you should be using.
A heavier caliber might be a better choice if youre hunting, have time, and what youre shooting isnt really a threat to you. But if you cant in an instant, shoot it on demand quickly, repetitively, and accurately under stress, its probably not what you should be using.
WisBorn
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Back to the original question!
During a upcoming vacation to the Smokies I plan on carrying my XDM compact 3.8" 45acp. While hiking it will be loaded with Underwood 255 grain +p hardcast. On the nightstand it will have 230 JHPs. Different loads for different purposes. The biggest threat is still two legged, but over penetration is more of a concern in the condo than on a hiking trail. The hardcast will work fine on some crackhead. I have thousands of rounds through the pistol and I'm faster with it than my XDM 10mm. If I was going to Yellowstone instead of GSMNP I would be spending more range time with the 10mm before the trip.
If I bring a second handgun it will be my j frame 442 with 110 grain Hornady Critical Defense and Underwood 158 grain hardcast +p. Some people will question a 38 special? The Underwood 158 +p is still traveling 1100 fps from the 2" barrel with 420# of energy.
During a upcoming vacation to the Smokies I plan on carrying my XDM compact 3.8" 45acp. While hiking it will be loaded with Underwood 255 grain +p hardcast. On the nightstand it will have 230 JHPs. Different loads for different purposes. The biggest threat is still two legged, but over penetration is more of a concern in the condo than on a hiking trail. The hardcast will work fine on some crackhead. I have thousands of rounds through the pistol and I'm faster with it than my XDM 10mm. If I was going to Yellowstone instead of GSMNP I would be spending more range time with the 10mm before the trip.
If I bring a second handgun it will be my j frame 442 with 110 grain Hornady Critical Defense and Underwood 158 grain hardcast +p. Some people will question a 38 special? The Underwood 158 +p is still traveling 1100 fps from the 2" barrel with 420# of energy.
Armored farmer
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Being from the Midwest, my bear experience is limited. I do frequent black bear territory often. I visit grizzly country occasionally.
I was at a hunting lodge that had a grizzly skull on the coffee table. It surprised me how thick the skull was....it looked like it was ¾ thick.
I regularly shoot .357, .45acp, and 9mm.
I would be comfortable with any of the three Calibers in black bear country. In Grizzly country I would simply choose the one that I shoot the quickest and most accurate with. I would have it easily and quickly accessible and avoid grizzlies like they were a tornado.
I have fly-fished the Yellowstone area and been deep in the backcountry on the Madison. I can tell you that I carried a .357mag and been where signs were posted GRIZZLY AREA.
Take care, make noise, plan to avoid.
I was at a hunting lodge that had a grizzly skull on the coffee table. It surprised me how thick the skull was....it looked like it was ¾ thick.
I regularly shoot .357, .45acp, and 9mm.
I would be comfortable with any of the three Calibers in black bear country. In Grizzly country I would simply choose the one that I shoot the quickest and most accurate with. I would have it easily and quickly accessible and avoid grizzlies like they were a tornado.
I have fly-fished the Yellowstone area and been deep in the backcountry on the Madison. I can tell you that I carried a .357mag and been where signs were posted GRIZZLY AREA.
Take care, make noise, plan to avoid.
Since this is your second thread posting of a similar question, here is the answer you do not want to hear and this forum being full of facilitators I will oblige, neither of the guns you have are adequate. You need another in .44 magnum, .454C or maybe .45 Colt or 10mm, those may be barely adequate for brown bear country.
I am of a mind that these days homo sapiens is more of a threat to me than are brown bears or bears in general, thus favoring a 10mm for your new pistol
.
OP
OP
American_Fusilier
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You're right. Bad people are definitely more likely to attack me than a bear. Mostly because I don't spend a lot of time in bear country.
A Glock 20 SF will be my next pistol, whenever I can afford that!
shanep0017
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Personally I'd go with the 357 no question, in fact a 4 inch 357 is my woods pistol and I'm in the Midwest too. I'm in Ohio, we don't have a ton of black bears but they are around. I have no doubt a good hardcast bullet will take care of anything I need it to.
I had the EAA a while back and the cylinder is shorter than most 357s. I'd go with a hardcast in 158 grain, 173-180 would be better but I don't think they'd fit the cylinder. If you reload it opens up your options a little more but if you have to go with factory I'd go with a 158. A good JSP bullet wouldn't be too bad either, I carried the PMC soft point as my woods load until I started reloading.
The only factory hardcast in 158 that I know of is the Buffalo bore and Underwood but those are technically 38+p, however they're going around 1200 fps which is what most factory 158 grain 357 loads are running at so those would be a good option as well.
I had the EAA a while back and the cylinder is shorter than most 357s. I'd go with a hardcast in 158 grain, 173-180 would be better but I don't think they'd fit the cylinder. If you reload it opens up your options a little more but if you have to go with factory I'd go with a 158. A good JSP bullet wouldn't be too bad either, I carried the PMC soft point as my woods load until I started reloading.
The only factory hardcast in 158 that I know of is the Buffalo bore and Underwood but those are technically 38+p, however they're going around 1200 fps which is what most factory 158 grain 357 loads are running at so those would be a good option as well.
LimaCharlie
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In your scenario, I would go with a five or six-inch 357 magnum with large for caliber hard-cast bullets.
I carry a 44 magnum in rural areas of Oregon with potential black bear encounters. Before I retired, I often worked alone in remote wilderness areas with potential brown bear or moose encounters. I carried a five-inch S&W X-frame in 460 S&W magnum.
I carry a 44 magnum in rural areas of Oregon with potential black bear encounters. Before I retired, I often worked alone in remote wilderness areas with potential brown bear or moose encounters. I carried a five-inch S&W X-frame in 460 S&W magnum.
StrykerByte.45
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255gr hardcast in 45acp+P specifically is going to be better than anything, even 357magnum. If you can do 45super, it will be a bit better.
Some wild cards to think about, inadvertently finding oneself between sow and cubs,
Walking one's dogs, bears see dogs as threats, and they can/do attack dogs...same for mountain lions, javelina and wild hawgs.
This time of year, as the weather cools, both mountain lions and bears migrate from the mountains down to our valley. I'm frequently outside on the ranch with my GSDs and my carry transitions to the .357mag and 10mm, typically with WFNs because these types of bullets tend to have straight trajectory through brush when said brush is an intermediate barrier.
For handloaders who own 45 ACP revolvers, but some 45 auto rim brass from Starline and load those 255gr SWC (Rimrock bullet supplier to Buffalo Bore IIRC) up a notch...
Walking one's dogs, bears see dogs as threats, and they can/do attack dogs...same for mountain lions, javelina and wild hawgs.
This time of year, as the weather cools, both mountain lions and bears migrate from the mountains down to our valley. I'm frequently outside on the ranch with my GSDs and my carry transitions to the .357mag and 10mm, typically with WFNs because these types of bullets tend to have straight trajectory through brush when said brush is an intermediate barrier.
For handloaders who own 45 ACP revolvers, but some 45 auto rim brass from Starline and load those 255gr SWC (Rimrock bullet supplier to Buffalo Bore IIRC) up a notch...
StrykerByte.45
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I can load the 255gr hotter than the 1090fps the Underwoods do from my 4.5" barrel, but that 1090 is more than enough. I dont want the hardcast losing it's shape on the fat before hitting bone. Hardcasts should not be pushed over 1100fps. For bear, the rule is to go heavy as you can, caliber makes little difference because bleeding out the bear is not going to save your life. You also cannot have so much weight that sectional density is so high that the bullet tumbles upon impact and reduces penetration. That's why I think 45auto is better, you get the most weight with low SD to prevent tumbling. Velocity is not going to stop a bear at all. 357magnum can be enough, but a 45auto will always be more with heavier bullets. They just have to be wadcutter style hardcasts or solid copper for bear.
StrykerByte.45
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Bears are common up to 600lbs where I am. I varry for bear everyday. I use my G30S in a brace for faster follow up shots with 255gr 45super.
Typically I use 10 or 17 round mags with the 255gr. 10 is more than enough. 2 or 3 will do.
Like Elmer Keith said, a 250-260 45colt(.452) at 1000fps will take down anything in North America with 1 or 2 shots. He proved that by shooting a charging 900lbs Grizzly that came tumbling to a stop at his feet.
Typically I use 10 or 17 round mags with the 255gr. 10 is more than enough. 2 or 3 will do.
Like Elmer Keith said, a 250-260 45colt(.452) at 1000fps will take down anything in North America with 1 or 2 shots. He proved that by shooting a charging 900lbs Grizzly that came tumbling to a stop at his feet.
WisBorn
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StrykerByte.45
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No this is much smaller and lighter than a shotgun. It has a paddle holster as well and is easy to draw. It can be shot with the brace folded still.That pistol has a lot going on!
I think I would just carry a shotgun
Pat Riot
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That depends on one’s experience, training and practice.
Pat Riot
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@American_Fusilier I would carry what you are most comfortable with and shoot most accurately from any position you might be in…Sitting, standing, call of nature, lying down, falling down, etc…
I live where there are a few grizzlies and tons of black bears. I carry a 9mm.
I think that's why he said "most people".
Pat Riot
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Funny thing is, most people I see shooting semiautos can’t hit squat past 7 yards.
Agreed. That's just gun owners in general though. Certainly not exclusive to carriers of semi autos. Regardless, as you pointed out, it depends on what one has experience and training with. Only a tiny minority of people at this point have training or experience with a revolver, therefore, most people should be carrying a semi auto for "bear defense". It should be pointed out that, in the vast majority of black bear country, by far the most dangerous mammal a person might run into in the woods is a human, not a bear. What that means is that, in the vast majority of the country, people should just be carrying whatever they already carry for defense from humans.
dranrab
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Do you think those same people would be better shooting a revolver double action?
trackskippy
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Lucky for some of us then, youve already written us off.
Absolutely! Thats how its meant to be shot, and the only real chance you have here, or anywhere really, with a revolver anyway.
shanep0017
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Probably not, shooting a double action revolver is a lot different than shooting a semi auto. I will say this, if you can learn to shoot a double action you can learn to shoot any pistol. Shooting a double action made me a way better shooter.
RetiredUSNChief
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Between the two cartridges you named, and the purpose you cited, there's no contest...and I don't care who you are on this. (Had to throw that in to stir the pot!)
I'm a big fan of the .45 ACP. But the plain fact of the matter is that what you need in this instance is maximum capability in penetration. Bears have quite a bit of body to penetrate, even for a black bear. And their skulls aren't akin to that of a deer. Bears are and apex predator and ought not to be taken lightly when the need arises to actually shoot one.
For any given hot loading in either round, the .357 is going to give you that needed penetration over the .45 ACP. We can argue this all day by tailoring things to favor one over the other, but that doesn't change this fact. And we can easily demonstrate this by simple comparison of standard rounds of each on a range where you're free to shoot various objects. A standard velocity 115 grain FMJ 9mm will punch holes through things all day long that a standard velocity 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP will only dent or occasionally penetrate. Up the power of each and you'll see that the .357 will retain this edge.
Bullet diameter matters a lot in penetration. So does mass and velocity, obviously. But I would argue that you can get a mass/velocity combination out of a .357 with much greater penetration capacity than you can with a mass/velocity combination out of a .45 ACP. And that smaller cross sectional area of the .357 will help with this...not to mention the case capacity between the .357 and .45 ACP favors the .357 by a small margin. And the revolver doesn't have the limitations required of the 1911 to get it to cycle properly with any given loading.
Remember...I'm limited by your stated choices here. You can only get so much out of a 1911 frame for several reasons, so even having those 2 extra rounds doesn't mean much. If I were allowed to vary outside this, my recommendation would be to get a handgun that would give you distinct advantages in power/penetration over and above either of these.
I'm a big fan of the .45 ACP. But the plain fact of the matter is that what you need in this instance is maximum capability in penetration. Bears have quite a bit of body to penetrate, even for a black bear. And their skulls aren't akin to that of a deer. Bears are and apex predator and ought not to be taken lightly when the need arises to actually shoot one.
For any given hot loading in either round, the .357 is going to give you that needed penetration over the .45 ACP. We can argue this all day by tailoring things to favor one over the other, but that doesn't change this fact. And we can easily demonstrate this by simple comparison of standard rounds of each on a range where you're free to shoot various objects. A standard velocity 115 grain FMJ 9mm will punch holes through things all day long that a standard velocity 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP will only dent or occasionally penetrate. Up the power of each and you'll see that the .357 will retain this edge.
Bullet diameter matters a lot in penetration. So does mass and velocity, obviously. But I would argue that you can get a mass/velocity combination out of a .357 with much greater penetration capacity than you can with a mass/velocity combination out of a .45 ACP. And that smaller cross sectional area of the .357 will help with this...not to mention the case capacity between the .357 and .45 ACP favors the .357 by a small margin. And the revolver doesn't have the limitations required of the 1911 to get it to cycle properly with any given loading.
Remember...I'm limited by your stated choices here. You can only get so much out of a 1911 frame for several reasons, so even having those 2 extra rounds doesn't mean much. If I were allowed to vary outside this, my recommendation would be to get a handgun that would give you distinct advantages in power/penetration over and above either of these.
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