38 special equals 9mm?

[Propforce]

But in either case the point is clear even with the heaviest loads for both 9mm does the same thing as 38 and with lighter more common SD bullet weights there's simply no comparison. The fact that the 38 is so special fans keep going back to one Buffalo Bore loading instead of citing the plethora of real world chrony reports is quite telling.

I have revolvers in both cartridges and a Chronograph. I KNOW wich is more powerful. Its you guys without the equipment nor the desire to find out for yourselves who want to convince yourselves of an outcome that runs contrary to the numbers

I concede that what's advertised on the box is not the same as what you tested in your gun. But at the lack of one-to-one comparison, at least the 'advertised' ballistic info can be used as a ballpark number to categorized these info, at least for newbies like me.

Just for fun I also checked the 124/ 125 grain ballistic comparison between the 9mm and the 38 spcl, both +P's. My reason for doing so is an attempt to compare both caliber to as much of apple-to-apple as possible.

The .38 specl with 125 grain +P

Remington UMC Ammunition 38 Special +P 125 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
Ballistic Information
•Muzzle Velocity: 945 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 248 ft. lbs.

Remington Golden Saber Ammunition 38 Special +P 125 Grain Brass Jacketed Hollow Point
Muzzle velocity: 975 fps
Muzzle energy: 264 ft/lb

Buffalo Bore Ammunition 38 Special +P 125 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
•Muzzle Velocity: 1050 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 306 ft. lbs.

The 9mm with 124 grain +P

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 124 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
•Muzzle Velocity: 1150 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 364 ft. lbs

Black Hills Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 124 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
•Muzzle Velocity: 1250 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 430 ft. lbs.

So it is true that, at lower bullet weight, the 9mm performs better (in terms of velocity, since mass is ~ equal) at the muzzle.

So it would seem, if one has 9mm he/she would want to use lighter bullet. For a .38 spcl, he/she would want to use heavier bullet. The question is, can a bad guy tell the difference when hit?

This is not to start a caliber war. As a newbie I am still processing these infromation as to what is better to use on which caliber, etc.

I also recognize that energy discharged (at muzzle) is NOT the same as energy absorbed by the target (human flesh, paper, etc.). There are a lot more factors that go into that equation.

The other consideration is also the felt-recoil by each gun/ caliber, and that is not categorize by the muzzle energy, but is by muzzle momentum (bullet mass * velocity) minus the momentum absorbed by the gun (weight, slide movements, etc.) and finally what is felt by the shooter (width of the grip, the wider the grip the lower the felt recoil, and shock absorbing materials).

Ultimately regardless of caliber, it is shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement.

 

[Tcruse]

The weight and speed of the bullet is only one factor. .38Spl, .357Mag, .357Sig, and 9mm all have overlap on weight and speed (depending on load and gun). Now, the bigger question is bullet design. If we look at only the best bullets available then the manufactures have done a really fine job of making the service level calibers match the FBI "specifications". Now, I am not sure that the .38 spl provides the same level of compensation to the ammo manufactures to put the design work on these. The market place seems to have choosen 9mm (with .40S&W and .45ACP second)

Some interesting links:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#9mm
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/WebData/Winchester_LE_Catalog.pdf

 

[R.W.Dale]

Ultimately regardless of caliber, it is shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement.

On that we are in absolute agreement with the caveat that you have the penatration to make that shot count.

That's why my 32 h&r snubby is stoked with 98g hardcast wadcutters.

 

[murf]

post #11 tells the story: 9mm is better with 124 grain bullets; both equal with 158 grain bullets; 38 special better with heavier (180 grain) bullets.

am limiting this to internal ballistics only. platform, bullet type/construction, and terminal ballistics are a different story.

murf

 

[Propforce]

Hi Murf,

Yes post 11 summarized well. I guess my brain process information differently. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[ljnowell]

I'm fully convinced that in 1901 the German high command invented the perfect handgun cartridge that's only gotten better with more modern bullets as evidenced by the fact that even today most even new pistol cartridges run similar pressure envelopes.

I think that says it all right there. You are a fanboy. Nothing wrong with that. I am a 45 colt fanboy.

Also, Just to mention, pressure really isnt always everything about ballistics. You do understand how case capacity can measure into this as well, right?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Also, Just to mention, pressure really isnt always everything about ballistics. You do understand how case capacity can measure into this as well, right?

Its not so much I'm a fanboi its just that I have rifles and revolvers in both cartridges and the 9mm clearly and resoundingly out paces 38spl every time. If you had both platforms in both cartridges you'd be in agreement with me on this.

Yes and I also know that in short 3 inch or less handgun barrels its almost completely a function of pressure.

Get the barrel length up there to 5" + or even in a carbine and the higher expansion ratio really has legs.

But with a low pressure rating even in a long barrel 38 just doesn't really gain much. It all comes down to how much propellant (think fuel) you can burn and stay within saami pressures. Look at 9mm and 38 charge weights for given powders and this will become readily evident. 17k psi effectively keeps you from being able to use 38's greater capacity.

As a 45 colt fan you of all folks know what it takes to get long barrelled performance from the round. It involves raising pressures.

 

[ljnowell]

As a 45 colt fan you of all folks know what it takes to get long barrelled performance from the round. It involves raising pressures.

Pressures are only half the equation, burn rate of powder and case volume are just as important. I can load a max pressure load of Bullseye and a max pressure load of 2400 and I can guarantee you they will NOT be the same muzzle velocity. Pressure alone does not dictate performance.

My opinion is this, I can load a 158gr LSWC-HP in my 38 and be just as effective as a 9mm. There is no real difference as far as impact and effectiveness.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Pressures are only half the equation, burn rate of powder and case volume are just as important. I can load a max pressure load of Bullseye and a max pressure load of 2400 and I can guarantee you they will NOT be the same muzzle velocity. Pressure alone does not dictate performance.

My opinion is this, I can load a 158gr LSWC-HP in my 38 and be just as effective as a 9mm. There is no real difference as far as impact and effectiveness.

Can you get that kind of performance from 2400 UNDER 17K psi?

No you can't.

Case capacity and pressure rating dictate what propellants will be suitable.

I'm sorry there's no barrel length that will make a 17k psi cartridge outperform a 35k psi round firing THE SAME BULLETS

One only need to compare cartridges like 7mm-08 to 7x57 within saami pressures to see that case capacity almost never makes up enough to offset lower pressures

 

[ljnowell]

Can you get that kind of performance from 2400 UNDER 17K psi?

No you can't.

Case capacity and pressure rating dictate what propellants will be suitable.

I'm sorry there's no barrel length that will make a 17k psi cartridge outperform a 35k psi round firing THE SAME BULLETS

NO one says there is. Im not sure why you feel the need to argue with everyones statements no matter what is said. What I said above is fact, why argue with it? I never said that I would make it outperform. BTW, I have owned both in a similar platform. I now only own one of those. Im not the one arguing that 38 is better than 9mm, argue with someone else.

 

[Propforce]

Pressures are only half the equation, burn rate of powder and case volume are just as important.

Can someone tell me the difference in the powders between 9mm and 38 spcl catridges? I know .38 spcl uses black powder so presumable a slower burn rate than the 9 mm who probably use smokeless powder?

Do they load the same amount of powder in each catridge? If not, which one has more powder in them?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Can someone tell me the difference in the powders between 9mm and 38 spcl catridges? I know .38 spcl uses black powder so presumable a slower burn rate than the 9 mm who probably use smokeless powder?

Do they load the same amount of powder in each catridge? If not, which one has more powder in them?

With the exclusion of CAS shooters loading 38 with black for cowboy action games for all intents and purposes 9mm and 38 not only use the same powders but use them in similar quantities.

 

[R.W.Dale]

NO one says there is. Im not sure why you feel the need to argue with everyones statements no matter what is said. What I said above is fact, why argue with it? I never said that I would make it outperform. BTW, I have owned both in a similar platform. I now only own one of those. Im not the one arguing that 38 is better than 9mm, argue with someone else.

I apologize if I come across argumentative. I don't mean to at all I just really enjoy these more "nerdy" caliber wars where the internal ballistics come up for debate as with this one.

 

[ljnowell]

I apologize if I come across argumentative. I don't mean to at all I just really enjoy these more "nerdy" caliber wars where the internal ballistics come up for debate as with this one.

I can appreciate that. I think that this is right up there with the 40 S&W vs 45 acp debate. There is a lot to be said for either. In my opinion, I like my 38 special and my 45 acp.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I can appreciate that. I think that this is right up there with the 40 S&W vs 45 acp debate. There is a lot to be said for either. In my opinion, I like my 38 special and my 45 acp.

I really like both 38/357 and 9mm I recently moved away from the larger bore stuff purely because the $$ per shot equation wasn't coming out as I liked.

 

[Propforce]

With the exclusion of CAS shooters loading 38 with black for cowboy action games for all intents and purposes 9mm and 38 not only use the same powders but use them in similar quantities.

Thanks.

So with the same powders and similar quantities, yet the 9mm has 200% of chamber pressure. This must has to do with the case volume.

I also imagine that the 9mm need the pressure to cycle the slide whereas the .38 spcl does not. But the .38 spcl loses a bit of pressure in the gap between the cyclinder and the barrel.

 

[Propforce]

I really like both 38/357 and 9mm I recently moved away from the larger bore stuff purely because the $$ per shot equation wasn't coming out as I liked.

I have 38/357, 9mm, 40S&W, and .45ACP. I enjoy shooting them all. I am using my "stocked" ammo as the price of ammo these days are quite high, even a .38 spcl is 30+ cents/ round in today's prices.

BTW, if anyone has a good lead on where to buy bulk on .38 spcl 158 gr +P LSWC-HP, please let me know. I like to get them down to 35 cents/round.

 

[ljnowell]

BTW, if anyone has a good lead on where to buy bulk on .38 spcl 158 gr +P LSWC-HP, please let me know. I like to get them down to 35 cents/round.

I reload so I get them much cheaper than that! As far as your earlier comment, I do agree with you, in the 38 special the heavier bullets are the better choice, in my opinion. Everyone wants to base decisions on FT lbs of energy, but the strength of the 38 is being able to get that 158gr lswc-hp up to the velocity it does, it performs great there!

 

[Propforce]

I reload so I get them much cheaper than that! As far as your earlier comment, I do agree with you, in the 38 special the heavier bullets are the better choice, in my opinion. Everyone wants to base decisions on FT lbs of energy, but the strength of the 38 is being able to get that 158gr lswc-hp up to the velocity it does, it performs great there!

Thanks. I'd figure that each caliber has an optimal range where it shines. I just like to figure what range for each caliber. Both the 9mm and the .38 spcl do not kick particularly hard in a right gun, so both can be learned how to shoot well.

I should look into learning about reloading, but that's another ramp on the learning curve. I will get there, just give it time.

 

[C0untZer0]

That's a cool picture of the Taurus 905.

I'm chompin at the bit for that Charter Arms 9mm PITBULL

Should actually be arriving at gun stores any month now...

 

[ljnowell]

I should look into learning about reloading, but that's another ramp on the learning curve. I will get there, just give it time.

We have a great reloading forum here! I would encourage you to come over and read all you can for a while, ask questions, you will be a leg up when you do decide to reload.

 

[orionengnr]

no bad choices...

If you prefer a revolver, there are a number of small, light .38 Spl revolvers. I have owned a bunch of them.

At a certain point I realized that my 9mm (Kahr PM9) was smaller and easier to carry, held +2 rounds compared to the j-frame, and was capable of being reloaded far more quickly. The fact that I shoot the PM9 better did not hurt one bit.

After putting enough rounds through the PM9 to trust it, all six of my j-frames went up for sale.

I miss them, once in a while. But not enough to buy another one.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

My wife doesn't like "guns that shoot back," so semiautomatics in any caliber were pretty much a dead issue for her. Many women (and, to be fair, some men) have issues working the slide on a 9mm semiautomatic of any size, let alone a small one.

My wife's carry gun (yes, concealed) is a 4 inch S&W Model 681 loaded with Speer 135 grain Gold Dot .38 Special +P "Short Barrel" ammunition. It chronos at just a bit over 1000 fps out of that revolver with no flash.

My younger daughter's carry gun is a KelTec P11 9mm that won't feed heavy bullet loads worth a d@&%, but with 115 grain standard pressure Silvertips she's fast and accurate with it.

I just erased a bunch of stuff that was unnecessary to the discussion. The key is to let her pick the gun which should drive the caliber. A .38 Special with modern defensive ammunition (need not be Buffalo Bore) or a 9X19mm with modern defensive ammunition will do the trick. Whatever she can shoot quickly and accurately is what she should carry.

I habitually carry a 3 inch S&W Model 13-3 loaded with Speer 135 grain Gold Dot .357 "Short Barrel" ammunition (the same as my duty load) and a 1⅞ inch S&W Model 37 loaded with Buffalo Bore SAAMI standard pressure 158 grain LSWCHP-GC .38 Special ammo when off duty. I trust them both.

ECS

 

[S&Wfan]

The wimpy .38 Special round is lame . . . ESPECIALLY in the cheap ol' 158gn. lead ROUNDNOSE version, and fired out of a snubby, like this Colt Detective Special!

Heck, the shooter didn't even bother aiming either.

Folks, obscess all your want over velocities, bullet type, "stopping power," but the .38 Special is a fine, fine round for concealed self defense.

Just ask Lee Harvey Oswald how it felt! Oops, I forgot . . . he ain't talkin!

And . . . wasn't it just the day before that when Oswald shot Officer Tippit with a .38, out of the barrel of an old surplus S&W Victory revolver. Tippit ain't talking either.

 

[Certaindeaf]

^
I think they were both trying to fight their way to their rifles.