lloveless
Member
Charter arms has 9mm and .40 in a snub revolver. Neither uses moon clips.
http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_Pitbull_79920.asp
ll
http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_Pitbull_79920.asp
ll
38 special equals 9mm?
- Thread starter Martel
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R.W.Dale
Member
I guess the marketing weenies have won. They have convinced a large portion of the buyers they need a super fast round to do a good job and that round comes at a premium price. Marketing Weenies one, buyers nothing but the higher prices!
Well, if that were true, how do you explain rounds like the 45-70 just to mention one. The .45-70 will push a 405gr lead bullet clear through a Buffalo and at only 1400 fps from the muzzle. Heavy and slow works and works well. Sure a 9mm 124gr bullet @1200 fps will hit hard but a .38 Special 158gr bullet @950 fps will hit harder. It will also create a larger permanent wound cavity and that's important. Don't let the marketing weenies win, velocity alone isn't everything. Carry what you shoot best, both will stop the bad guy but the .38 Spl will do it better.
so 45-70 = 38spl I'll remember that next time I plan to go out and shoot through a buffalo
In the meantime getting an unsuspecting buffalo to die somewhere within eyeshot of where shot on the great plains and preventing a methhead from stabbing you in the face with a screwdriver in a wal mart parking lot require very diffrent things from a bullet.9mm from a snubby will do this (124 GD +P @1150fps) I assure you your 158g 38 load ISN'T hitting harder than this.
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ArchAngelCD
Member.
Don't be a wise guy and talk down to me! You know darn well I did not say a 45-70 = .38 Special. I was making a point that is a slow and big rifle round works well on very tough game a slightly slower and heavier handgun round will work well on a soft target like a man. Besides, most of my post was aimed at not letting marketing push your decision making in one direction or another but you you didn't mention those parts of my thread.so 45-70 = 38spl I'll remember that next time I plan to go out and shoot through a buffalo
9mm from a snubby will do this (124 GD +P @1150fps) I assure you your 158g 38 load ISN'T hitting harder than this.
You trying to make me sound like a fool was uncalled for and not very High Road!
jad0110
Member
IMHO, there is no appreciable difference in quality loadings of either. Heck, you can say the same for most medium and big bore handgun calibers. Pick the platform and chambering that work for you and don't worry about it.
jad0110
Member
These make over 450 from a 4" barrel:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108
But, like others here, I'm not as concerned as much with energy. As long as the projectile has enough of it to do what I want it to (namely, penetrate adequately and offer expansion as a bonus), I'm happy. The advertised ft-lbs don't mean a lot if a crummy bullet is being pushed.
Very nice Taurus BTW
! The bluing on that one looks much better than many of the newer Smiths I've seen in the last few years.R.W.Dale
Member
Buffalo bore ballistics are quick and easy to quote from various bbl lengths.
The problem is that in lower pressure rounds I don't believe for a second they're loaded within saami specifications. Especially when they come with a cleverly worded warning stating that they're not recommended in all guns so chambered
"These 38SPL+P loads are generating low-end 357 magnum, ballistics. If you have an older or more fragile 38SPL, or if you are recoil sensitive, consider using our HVY Standard Pressure 38SPL ammunition. It is safe to be fired in any 38SPL revolver and it still packs much more punch than ordinary 38SPL ammo."
Now does anyone who knows anything about ammunition or reloading actually believe that almost 1200fps from a 4" 38spl w 158 grain bullets is going to happen at only 18,500 psi?
Or is this another instance of "magic powders" we can't get
The problem is that in lower pressure rounds I don't believe for a second they're loaded within saami specifications. Especially when they come with a cleverly worded warning stating that they're not recommended in all guns so chambered
"These 38SPL+P loads are generating low-end 357 magnum, ballistics. If you have an older or more fragile 38SPL, or if you are recoil sensitive, consider using our HVY Standard Pressure 38SPL ammunition. It is safe to be fired in any 38SPL revolver and it still packs much more punch than ordinary 38SPL ammo."
Now does anyone who knows anything about ammunition or reloading actually believe that almost 1200fps from a 4" 38spl w 158 grain bullets is going to happen at only 18,500 psi?
Or is this another instance of "magic powders" we can't get
ljnowell
Member
Thats typical in any 9mm vs ? thread. The super fanboys come out and try every analogy to put anything they can into the other sides mouth. I noticed earlier when someone said "If 38 is so great, why is there a 357?" I posted back, "if 9mm is so great why is there a 357 sig and a 9x23?" No answer there.
Fact is, I will take my 158gr LSWC-HP that expands just as well as any 9mm hollowpoint. Its heavier, expands just as well, and packs a wallop. 9mm is going to kill something any better than dead.
R.W.Dale
Member
Spare me the contrived sanctimony
So its high road to imply that if you understand ballistics and basic physics that you're merely a simple mind falling for marketing hype.
But its not high road to explain how what the Buffalo hunters on the plains need from a bullet is vastly different than what the average ccw'er needs. Even though you did ask "how do you explain"
38 has only been around a few years longer than 9x19. Both were designed when Victoria was still queen. You're hardly falling for the "marketing Weenies hype" by selecting the latter.
This is the only thing that matters and explains everything said so far
38spl +p 18,500 psi saami Max
9mm +p 38,000 psi saami Max
Loaded with the same bullets in the same length barrels to their respective pressure limits NO 38 spl load WILL EVER match the ballistics of 9mm
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R.W.Dale
Member
Are 357 sig-9x23 as popular in comparison to 9mm as 357 is relative to 38 spl?
How many 9x23 or 357 sig cases do you pick up on the range compared to 9mm?
Do any major police forces or military branches still issue 38? Many did including our USAF just a few years ago. Do they now? If not what did they replace it with?
I'm fully convinced that in 1901 the German high command invented the perfect handgun cartridge that's only gotten better with more modern bullets as evidenced by the fact that even today most even new pistol cartridges run similar pressure envelopes.
300 years from now after we've perfected FTL travel and are buzzing around the galaxy in spaceships those spaceships will still have a 9mm handgun in their escape pod emergency survival kits.
ljnowell
Member
Sounds like I touched a nerve. Doeswnt matter how common, they were created after the 9mm, same as 357 and 38.
9mm isnt as popular as it is because of its terrific manstopping abilities. If you think that you are lost.
R.W.Dale
Member
OK then why is it if its largely ineffective? And what does that say about the significantly weaker 38spl?
Any way shape or form of derision against 9mm applies even more so to 38spl. Its the same diameter bullet at even less velocity from the same lenght barrel. I'm sorry physics always apply even if you are a fanboi of the less powerful chambering
I got news for ya 38 is not exactly a manstopping caliber either
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Here.is.the.apples.to.apples,comparison......great.site...great.info.and.very.accurate
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/
I.know.one.of.the.testers.and.they.did.good.work
sorry.about.the.formatting...broken.spacebar....
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/
I.know.one.of.the.testers.and.they.did.good.work
sorry.about.the.formatting...broken.spacebar....
R.W.Dale
Member
It bears stressing though that a 2" barrel as tested by BBTI is NOT the same as a 2" barrel on a revolver where the cylinders length is not factored in.
The BBTI encore data is apples to apples. The actual handgun data however isn't.
R.W.Dale said:
Hi guys, a newbie here. I have a geniune question and not meant to stir the pot.
If the 9mm has 200% of chamber pressure than the .38, then why doesn't one load the 9mm with 158 grain bullet?
I think this will settle "velocity" vs. "mass" argument.
X-Rap
Member
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The 9mm shines in its ability to carry 2-3 x the rounds of a compact revolver in a similar package and faster reloads.
I'm betting the data reporting the potency of either cartridge in actual shootings would be quite inconclusive given the various bullet style, weights, and velocities in use.
I'm betting the data reporting the potency of either cartridge in actual shootings would be quite inconclusive given the various bullet style, weights, and velocities in use.
R.W.Dale
Member
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R.W.Dale
Member
What kind of four legged critters?
If up north with either round the "grind the front sight off" quip seems appropriate to describe the situation
__________________R.W.Dale said:
Thanks for the link. I did not realize they do sell 158 grain subsonic in 9mm
From your links
Also from the same website
So it would seem, given the same bullet diameter & weight, the 9mm can only go subsonic. As such the performance are on-par with each other, depending on manufacturers.
It maybe a better comparison if the 9mm has the 158 grn with +P?
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R.W.Dale
Member
On the box ballistics are usually so far off base as to make such comparisons pointless. And we've discussed ad nauseaum how Buffalo bore overloads are just that overloads.
147g+ 9mm is loaded subsonic on purpose for use in suppressed weapons
But in either case the point is clear even with the heaviest loads for both 9mm does the same thing as 38 and with lighter more common SD bullet weights there's simply no comparison. The fact that the 38 is so special fans keep going back to one Buffalo Bore loading instead of citing the plethora of real world chrony reports is quite telling.
I have revolvers in both cartridges and a Chronograph. I KNOW wich is more powerful. Its you guys without the equipment nor the desire to find out for yourselves who want to convince yourselves of an outcome that runs contrary to the numbers
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R.W.Dale
Member
No you grind the front sight off so when a bear takes that 38/9mm away from you and sticks it where the sun don't shine it wont hurt as much
Actually, velocity and energy are exactly the fuel that cause bullets to expand.
However, these days, the bullet designers can achieve reliable expansion with lower energy/velocity numbers than in the past--with less fuel than before, if you will.
I agree that while there are reasons to choose either the 9mm or the .38spl over the other, terminal performance isn't really one of them.
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R.W.Dale
Member
I don't agree.
I've been studying gel test after gel test for defense loads in short revolvers. I see a common theme. If the velocity is under 1000fps you are either going to get expansion with very shallow penatration or no expansion with very deep penatration. Being a firm believer in the forged in blood 12" min FBI penatration requirements I feel this is very important.
I think a common mistake folks make when selecting a load is they assume a load tested in a 4" 686 will do the same thing in their 2" m60. If you look at brassfetchers testing on the round and sort out the BB overloads it reads like a what's what list of ammunition that doesn't make 12"
Here's some more recent numbers from my 2" 9mm revolver.
124g hornady custom XTP
1076-1085-1090-1088
124g Speer gold dot +p
1178-1166-1143-1140-1139
These compare VERY favorably to brassfetchers 38 tests even allowing for the use of BB ammo
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Library Guy
Member
Thirty years ago the results of this debate would have beeen very different. Back then, a 9mm was a belt holster pistol firing FMJ ammunition. At this same time, the .38 (revolver & ammunition) came in all sizes and performance levels.
If you wanted a concealable auto you were confined to the .380 ACP- again in mostly FMJ loadings.
Since then, development of the .38 (revolver & ammunition) has remained mostly static. While the 9mm has been around all our lives, the changes in these pistols and ammunition in the last two decades have been dramatic. The 9mm is now a highly refined and potent CCW option.
If you wanted a concealable auto you were confined to the .380 ACP- again in mostly FMJ loadings.
Since then, development of the .38 (revolver & ammunition) has remained mostly static. While the 9mm has been around all our lives, the changes in these pistols and ammunition in the last two decades have been dramatic. The 9mm is now a highly refined and potent CCW option.
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