.38 Special in 4” Service Guns?

[JCooperfan1911]

This question is mainly geared towards the lawmen here who were issued or used .38 Specials in their service revolvers with barrels of 4” or 6”, but is more than welcome from others as well.

Do you consider good hollow point ammunition, such as the 158 grain LSWCHP +P “FBI” load or Speer Gold Dot 135 grain etc. to be an effective enough cartridge for the purposes of police work and by extension self-defense?



I recently purchased a .38 Special only chambered Ruger GP100 with 4” barrel and personally am okay with that since in my experience, .357 magnum has a bit more snap than I care for and is deafeningly noisy.

Interested in your replies. Thank you!

 

[RealGun]

I think the complaint for moving away from 38 Special is that it was not effective for penetrating a vehicle, perhaps someone using a vehicle door for cover. It apparently penetrates flesh or the like rather well. I thought my GP100 in 38 Special was rather heavy for that cartridge and carrying it, so I had it converted to 41 Special (6 shots) and believe that is an ideal application of the gun with the longer throats than 357 Magnum. That requires being a reloader, but brass and suitable bullets are available. The gun you have is a great candidate for shooting heavy +p.

 

[UncleEd]

First off, never was a LEO.

Perhaps refer to the thread in
the General Handgun category
titled"Ammo? Maybe I'm Wrong"

ln it, the Greg Ellifritz study is
cited and discusses "handgun
myths." I believe, and don't
quote me, that the FBi has
basically endorsed this study
of late.

The .38 LSWCHP is probably
as good as any in just about
any handgun caliber when
considered within the Ellifritz
study. (The only handgun
calibers discounted are the
.22, .25 and .32.)

 

[MedWheeler]

My first agency issued the 95-grain Winchester Silvertip HP round in +P. I believed it to be far too light for law enforcement, and its light weight made it hit low in any gun with fixed sights (our Model 67 revolvers had adjustables, but it was hard to sight these for the zippy little peas we were shooting.)

I stoke my revolvers that have either three-inch or four-inch barrels with a +P SJHP load running 125 grains. It's readily-available, usually pretty affordable, and shoots well in these guns. This was a popular configuration with other agencies near where I worked, though at least one was issuing the 125-grain SJHP in .357 Magnum.

The Speer GD 135-grain gets (and deserves) a lot of respect. I just never saw much of it around here. If I saw the "short barrel" version of it around here for a decent price, I might have considered it for my 2" barreled guns. Those are currently loaded with either a standard-velocity 130-grain HP load (which probably won't expand) or a flat-tipped FMJ, also in 130 grains.

Two of my service-class revolvers are in .357 Magnum. The only times either is loaded with such is for a cylinder or two at the range, or when hiking in NC bear country. Like you, I don't see enjoying shooting it in anything shorter than four inches, and would dread the effects of shooting it indoors, at night, and without hearing or eye protection.

 

[wcwhitey]

Yes and Yes! Used the Winchester FBI load, Federal Nyclad 158 SWC, Federal Nyclad 158 SWC-HP and the Speer Gold Dot 135 Short Barrel. The 158 Grain loads were always respected in a 4” revolver, they never performed from a 2” gun. The .38’s were retired for capacity reasons, the rounds were performing well. This is why the Speer Gold Dot was invented. NYPD had moved to semi autos and settled on the 9mm Gold Dot 124 Grain after a few years. After the semi’s started finding its way to most holsters in uniform there were still primarily 2” revolvers used in the Detective Squads, by Desk Officers and Administrative folks not to mention everyone still utilized a 2” revolver for back-up and off duty use. The 158 Nyclad’s were just not the best choice in the snubbies. NYPD and Speer designed the 135 Grsin load specifically for the use of the 2” revolver. I still use it myself. NYPD provides a huge ammo market for makers. The 135 Grain bullet (Short Barrel) was designed to open up from a 2” gun and still able to meet penetration and expansions thresholds from 3 and 4” guns. I still load all my .38 revolvers with the Speer Product. If you can find some FBI type loads don’t overlook them though, a great round in a 4” revolver.

I had posted earlier in your new revolver thread that I thought the Buffalo Bore FBI type load would be perfect in your revolver due to its abundance of heft for the caliber. It’s basically a 158 SWC-HP Gas Check but hard cast not swagged. It is moving at over 1000 FPS in a 4” gun and would do nicely bridging the gap of a .357 without the felt recoil one would get from a snub. That being said, neither the Speer nor the Federal FBI load will disappoint.

 

[CDW4ME]

Ammo pictured in OP Federal 158+P SWHP doesn't expand in test even from a 4'' barrel:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
There are other 38 special loads that perform well (12''+ penetration and consistent expansion) and I'd carry one of those if limited to that revolver.
Fortunately I'm not limited to a revolver, Glock 19 minimum, everywhere.

 

[UncleEd]

MedWheeler,

Your comments about the Silvertip ammo
reminded me of the once popular "+P+ .38
Treasury load." It was a 110 grain round
with pressures pushing well beyond any
.38 levels. I believe it was designed
for Treasury's use of the Smith Model 19
with 2.5-inch barrel.

 

[wcwhitey]

Ammo pictured in OP Federal 158+P SWHP doesn't expand in test even from a 4'' barrel:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
There are other 38 special loads that perform well (12''+ penetration and consistent expansion) and I'd carry one of those if limited to that revolver.
Fortunately I'm not limited to a revolver, Glock 19 minimum, everywhere.

That is a good catch, Winchester was the brand of 158-SWC HP that was sought after back in the day. The Federal NYCLAD was made for LE originally in the 158 SWC then the SWC-HP and was a LE loading. The NY in NYCLAD was for New York and a range called Rodman’s Neck that overlooked the Hudson River and lead dust was a concern for the wild life and the range staff. It worked as designed but no way to know if it was loaded at different levels over today’s commercial loading. I would also question the new Winchester Train and Defense version of the 158 bullet. Apparently the Defense version is decent but the Training is a bit slower. I will say this about the SWC’s though, they were greatly superior to the old RNL because of the bullet design and +P velocity. It took quite a while (mid to late 90’s) before the NYC politics got comfortable with a hollow point in the first place. So the SWC not HP was what we had, it worked and worked well though. So one would draw the conclusion that the shape of the bullet helped that, so and non expanding SWC-HP is still a SWC and has some advantages over rounded jacketed bullets that fail to open.

 

[Tallball]

Why not? It shoots a bullet whose weight, width, and velocity are about the same as 9mm (the world's most popular service caliber).

Find the bullet type that works best with your revolver, and you're good.

 

[StrawHat]

The dept for which I worked (and was the Assistant Range Officer) issued 4” revolvers and the Winchester 38 Special +P, 125 Jacketed Silver Tip. I was not and am still not a fan. My thoughts on SD ammunition? If you would not use it to kill a deer, why do you think it would work on a human adversary? I know, somewhere, someone has killed a deer with a 22 Short from a barreled revolver, but that still doesn’t mean it is enough.

Kevin

 

[trackskippy]

I think if you put more emphasis on shooting the gun and hitting what you were aiming at, you'll be better off, than worrying about what the ammo in the gun is. I seem to remember that most of the reports on police shootings when revolvers were being carried, showed hits in shootouts at around 25%, which apparently went up significantly when they switched over to autos. If you arent shooting your revolver at a level of at least what the police training and qualifications were back in say the 70's or 80's, will you do much better? Id worry more about working on that than what I was stuffing in the gun.

Just from personal experience, Ive always found that the heavier 158 grain bullets shoot and penetrate better and the sights on the fixed sight guns seem to be regulated to them and they shoot POA/POI.

While I do have a couple of boxes of factory SD type ammo for them, I dont carry my revolvers anymore, and all my practice with them is with my full power 158 grain LSWC reloads which shoot well in all of them. I wouldnt have an issue using them for SD if necessary either.

 

[Thomas Traddles]

Not an LEO. But is it a fixed sight revolver? Fixed sight revolvers, as I understand, are calibrated for the stanard 158 grn bullet. and that is what I would use. I cast and reload, so my 38s pack a 158 grn rnfp or 160 grains DEWC running at +P levels.

 

[fxvr5]

MedWheeler,

Your comments about the Silvertip ammo
reminded me of the once popular "+P+ .38
Treasury load." It was a 110 grain round
with pressures pushing well beyond any
.38 levels. I believe it was designed
for Treasury's use of the Smith Model 19
with 2.5-inch barrel.

Article on the Treasury load, in case anyone is interested:

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/38-special-treasury-load/389102

 

[pairof44sp]

Ammo pictured in OP Federal 158+P SWHP doesn't expand in test even from a 4'' barrel:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
There are other 38 special loads that perform well (12''+ penetration and consistent expansion) and I'd carry one of those if limited to that revolver.
Fortunately I'm not limited to a revolver, Glock 19 minimum, everywhere.

What is a SWHP even for? Rifles?

 

[fxvr5]

What is a SWHP even for? Rifles?

Handguns. The "FBI Load".
https://hipowersandhandguns.com/38 Special 158gr LSWCHP.htm

 

[Speedo66]

The NY in NYCLAD was for New York and a range called Rodman’s Neck that overlooked the Hudson River and lead dust was a concern for the wild life and the range staff.

Rodman's actually overlooks the LI Sound, just before the East River begins under the Throgg's Neck Bridge, part of which is built on Ft. Schuyler. Schuyler, on the Bronx side, and Ft. Totten, on the Queens side, were built to protect the East River from ships coming down to invade Manhattan.

I also trained at Rodman's, plus enjoyed the great seafood restaurants just across the bridge on City Island.

 

[Jim Watson]

The NY in NYCLAD was for New York

Strange, they always said it meant NYlon CLAD

 

[earplug]

Fixed sight revolvers are regulated for 158 grain bullets. I call that a clue. With equal power loadings a heavier bullet is more pleasant to shoot.

 

[fxvr5]

Fixed sight revolvers are regulated for 158 grain bullets. I call that a clue. With equal power loadings a heavier bullet is more pleasant to shoot.

That would only be because that is the most common weight in 38 Special ammo. It does not mean that weight will provide the best terminal ballistics. Ammo performance is completely different than what weight the sights might be tuned to.

 

[wcwhitey]

In essence it was. The old RNL and lightweight 125 HP were the first and yes it stood for Nylon Clad as originally made by Smith and Wesson then Federal as a safer range ammo. At some point NYPD and Federal got together and made the 158 SWC +P and then the SWC-HP for the same reason. This is what I was told was the evolution. They were offered to the LE world but those particular bullets were specifically made for NYC by request. We were at risk of losing our outdoor and indoor ranges due to high lead levels. With a then 28,000 person department you can kind of understand that part. Part of the attraction I am told is that it allowed for softer lead without leading and slightly faster velocity with less resistance.

 

[wcwhitey]

Strange, they always said it meant NYlon CLAD

I meant to quote you Jim on that last post. We called them flying crayons.

 

[wcwhitey]

Rodman's actually overlooks the LI Sound, just before the East River begins under the Throgg's Neck Bridge, part of which is built on Ft. Schuyler. Schuyler, on the Bronx side, and Ft. Totten, on the Queens side, were built to protect the East River from ships coming down to invade Manhattan.

I also trained at Rodman's, plus enjoyed the great seafood restaurants just across the bridge on City Island.[/QUOTE

What is the name of the little tiny island structure in the channel as you pass over the bridge. Was that a Channel Marker or a ranging structure for the gun emplacements.

I know this, I misspoke. Used to make for great meal periods, that all ended also.

 

[John Joseph]

The proof, they say, is in the pudding.
Rather than take anyone's word for it,
take a healthy stack of old magazines(or phone books, remember those?) To the range and see if a 4"er generates enough velocity to 'shroom.

FWIW my preferred round for .38 Spl. is the158 gr LSWC,(not Remington, though) but my only .38 these days is 2" snub and my tests with hollow points is no bueno

 

[Speedo66]

The land of Ft. Schuyler is actually a peninsula, juts out from the mainland Bronx. Perhaps that’s what you’re seeing?

One leg of the bridge sits there, there was actually a Triboro Bridge and Tunnel Auth. police substation there to guard it.

Reason I know a little about the fort is my son attended grad school at NY Maritime College, which is built on the old fort. Great maritime and fort museum there, open to the public, free.

 

[Speedo66]

Double post...