.38 Special in 4” Service Guns?

[kevincallahan]

Went on the job in 1981. You could carry any 4 or 6 inch barrel revolver as long as it had smith or colt on it and it was a 38 special or 357. We were issued 158 swc rounds back then . Later on we went to 125 grain hollow points plus p. I carried a model 15 with a set of hogue grips from 1981 till 1989 when we started transitioning to smith 9mm autos. I never felt under gunned with my 15 and two speed loaders. It was a tough tool, and now with some holster wear, I am still keeping the old girl around next to the bed.

 

[Paul7]

The dept for which I worked (and was the Assistant Range Officer) issued 4” revolvers and the Winchester 38 Special +P, 125 Jacketed Silver Tip. I was not and am still not a fan. My thoughts on SD ammunition? If you would not use it to kill a deer, why do you think it would work on a human adversary? I know, somewhere, someone has killed a deer with a 22 Short from a barreled revolver, but that still doesn’t mean it is enough.

Kevin

I'm not sure why some think the .38 isn't enough, cops carried them for decades. According to this chart the .38 does just fine: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

John Lennon was killed by a 2" .38 firing hollow points, and doctors said Lennon could have been shot on an operating table in the hospital and they wouldn't have been able to save his life.

 

[wvfarrier]

I have been carrying the Federal HST 130 gr. in 2", 3", and 4" .38 revolvers. The only downside, to me at least, is the fact that you need a different reload (Speer 135 GD) because the HST has the same profile as a wadcutter.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/tested-federal-hst-38-special-p/

My wife carries the same load but her reloads are heavy hard cast, figuring that the threat will be trying to get behind some type of cover.

 

[StrawHat]

I'm not sure why some think the .38 isn't enough, cops carried them for decades. According to this chart the .38 does just fine: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

John Lennon was killed by a 2" .38 firing hollow points, and doctors said Lennon could have been shot on an operating table in the hospital and they wouldn't have been able to save his life.

I believe you have misread or misunderstood my post. I disliked the specific load we carried. The 38 Special is, in my opinion, the best cartridge in 36 caliber that is available.

Kevin

 

[Toros]

Was a cop in NJ. Our State issued sidearm was the M66 with Pachmyr Presentation grips...no exceptions. Graduated NJSP Academy. As has been mentioned, we shot thousands of rounds of LSWC but issued and qualifying ammo was Winchester 145 grn. Silvertip .357 with twin speed strip drop pouches quickly replaced by speed loaders.
I was always confident in my issued gear.

 

[Beck]

Two good friends of mine in another department carried 4" stainless 38 Spl S&W Model 64 and two HKS speed loaders on the belt.

One carried the M64 his entire time as a patrolman through 1999. The other was still carry his until the early 2000s. The department issue load was 158 grain LSWCHP +P. This was not a small department. It was a time when LEOs were transitioning to semi-autos, so some officers had already done that, but many still had the 64s.

I still have plenty of respect for the +p 158 grain LSWCHP. I have a few boxes in the safe I can use in my K-Frame 357, and my "J-Frame" Taurus M85 38 Spl, which is rated for +P.

 

[wvfarrier]

I learned to shoot on an old S&W 357, we always shot 38s until I was big enough for magnums. I was a terror for squirrels, rabbits and raccoons. My wife and I both still practice with and carry 38 +p's in one flavor or another. I generally only carry magnums when Im in the woods. I figure a hard cast 125 grain 38+p moving at 1000fps (longshot powder ) will handle anything in these WV mountains. It also bumps up to magnum power in a levergun which is a bonus

 

[jdavis123]

This is my S&W model 10-6 with six Winchester 158gr LSWCHP +P. As others have stated, this is the loading chosen by the FBI for it’s penetration and effectiveness. I sometimes carry this gun and load when taking walks wearing a cover garment and feel well armed against two or four legged critters.

 

[Hondo 60]

Strapped around my waist as I type this is a Charter Arms Model 73820.
It's filled with home rolled .38 Special +P
For those who reload, it's a 125gr SJHP, from Zero bullets, over 5.0 grains of TiteGroup (+ or - .1)

 

[amd6547]

Was a cop in NJ. Our State issued sidearm was the M66 with Pachmyr Presentation grips...no exceptions. Graduated NJSP Academy. As has been mentioned, we shot thousands of rounds of LSWC but issued and qualifying ammo was Winchester 145 grn. Silvertip .357 with twin speed strip drop pouches quickly replaced by speed loaders.
I was always confident in my issued gear.

What’s your impression of the 145gn 357 Silvertip?

 

[sgt127]

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108

I’d load it with these and not worry about it.

 

[35 Whelen]

I like my 158 gr. cast SWC's. These were fired into water baskets from one of my .38 Specials.



35W

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Never an LEO, the version I have heard was the 38 Special went out of fashion as drug use became more wide spread, the old RNL supposedly "weighed in the balance and found wanting." As Bill Jordan put it "Speed's fine but accuracy is final."

 

[d2wing]

I don't know if this helps but years ago I used to cast an Elmer Keith hollow point loaded to plus maybe more handloads. I don't recall the details but you can probably find the molds and data online.

 

[golden]

PAUL7,

The reason that people thought the .38 Special was a poor choice for law enforcement and self defense is because it was.

The original .38 Special 158 grain lead round nose got the nickname, "THE WIDOWMAKER" for reason. There were many documented failures to stop in police shootings. The round also had a history of overpenetration and exiting the target which just made things worse.

The .38 Special also had no good alternatives as the other police load, at the time, there was just as bad or worse, the 200 grain lead round nose. Things began to change when SUPERVEL introduced their fast, hollow point loads. Eventually, the major ammo makers followed and a number loads were developed of which the 158 grain hpswc and .38 Special 110 grain "TREASURY LOAD" which was also known as +P+. Both were hollow point loads which showed an immediate improvement when issued to street officers. Many departments resisted upgrading their ammo because of political concerns over the use of hollow point bullets which some in the media liked to call "DUM-DUMS", but police unions and many public failures of the lead round nose ammo forced them into it.
The 158 grain lead hollow point semi wadcutter design became so popular it picked up nicknames like the FBI load, the MIAMI-DADE load and so on. It worked much better and was chosen as a way to avoid going to a semi-auto or .357 magnum round.

As the ammo improved, the round became more relevant. I think the .38 Special FEDERAL HST 130 grain jhp is the best revolver defensive round in any caliber and load it in my .38 Specials and .357 magnum. Yes, I can always switch to a 110 or 125 grain .357 magnum load, but I will have to put up with more recoil, noise, muzzle blast and a brighter flash.

Jim

 

[golden]

AMD6547,

When my agency still carried revolvers, the WINCHESTER 145 grain Silvertip in .357 magnum was one of the allowed upgrades from our standard issue 110 grain .357 ammo. The other upgrade was the 125 grain jhp .357. If you could qualify with it, you could carry it.
It was tested and found to work well.

It should give good performance with deeper penetration than the lighter bullets.

Jim

 

[.455_Hunter]

PAUL7,

The reason that people thought the .38 Special was a poor choice for law enforcement and self defense is because it was.

The original .38 Special 158 grain lead round nose got the nickname, "THE WIDOWMAKER" for reason. There were many documented failures to stop in police shootings. The round also had a history of overpenetration and exiting the target which just made things worse.

The .38 Special also had no good alternatives as the other police load, at the time, there was just as bad or worse, the 200 grain lead round nose. Things began to change when SUPERVEL introduced their fast, hollow point loads. Eventually, the major ammo makers followed and a number loads were developed of which the 158 grain hpswc and .38 Special 110 grain "TREASURY LOAD" which was also known as +P+. Both were hollow point loads which showed an immediate improvement when issued to street officers. Many departments resisted upgrading their ammo because of political concerns over the use of hollow point bullets which some in the media liked to call "DUM-DUMS", but police unions and many public failures of the lead round nose ammo forced them into it.
The 158 grain lead hollow point semi wadcutter design became so popular it picked up nicknames like the FBI load, the MIAMI-DADE load and so on. It worked much better and was chosen as a way to avoid going to a semi-auto or .357 magnum round.

As the ammo improved, the round became more relevant. I think the .38 Special FEDERAL HST 130 grain jhp is the best revolver defensive round in any caliber and load it in my .38 Specials and .357 magnum. Yes, I can always switch to a 110 or 125 grain .357 magnum load, but I will have to put up with more recoil, noise, muzzle blast and a brighter flash.

Jim

Ah yes, the "widowmaker" line makes another appearance. The wives of the number of criminals it put in the ground would agree. The .38 Special in the 158 gr LRN loading provided adequate performance out of size efficient and controllable duty guns for over 50 years. Its main fault was hard target penetration, and while the 200 gr loading increased soft target performance, it further decreased hard target effects. The three issues that pushed it from duty were:

- Increase in facing criminals operating in well-protected automobiles (heavy doors, thick windshield safety glass, etc).
- Increase in facing criminals on drug induced derangements.
- Increase in criminals who would challenge police with higher firepower weapons versus surrendering.

 

[Skinny Pete]

PAUL7,
There were many documented failures to stop in police shootings.

There are many documented failures to stop in police shootings today with 9mm, 40 and 45

And any "failures" not put into context are largely irrelevant
Placement is far more important than caliber or bullet type

 

[golden]

Actually,

The reasons law enforcement agencies replaced the .38 Special lead round nose was that it did not do the job.
NYPD went out of its way to NOT ADOPT A HOLLOW POINT or a semi auto, but their officers forced the issue. They even tried non-hollow point semi wadcutter ammo and it did no better.

Really, I always thought that a 4000 pound Chevy was better protected than a 2500 pound TOYOTA. I must have missed something.

As for drug induced failure to stop. GARBAGE! I never felt more threatened by an illegal drug user than by a common, violent drunk and drunks have been around for centuries. In fact, I worried more about the drunks as they were less predictable, in my experience.

The U.S. Army adopted the .38 Long Colt, a very similar round to the .38 Special and found that it failed to stop the MORO'S in the Philippine with terrible results to the U.S. Army officers using it. Of course, hunter, you only believe what you want to believe, like the English army was so much smarter and more intelligent that it adopted the .38 S&W based round when the U.S. Army running its own tests decided on the .45ACP. Since the .38 fell into disfavor and the .45ACP hung around for another 30 or so years in U.S. service, I can guess which one knew what it was doing.

Jim

 

[UncleEd]

Once again, the old .38 vs. .45 debate is
with us. If any of the new studies have
any validity, it's that no handgun calibers
are really totally adequate and it takes
multiple hits--at least two-- to achieve a stop.

For what it's worth, in the Philippine campaign
against the Moros, even rifle rounds failed.
Or so I have read.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Actually,

The reasons law enforcement agencies replaced the .38 Special lead round nose was that it did not do the job.
NYPD went out of its way to NOT ADOPT A HOLLOW POINT or a semi auto, but their officers forced the issue. They even tried non-hollow point semi wadcutter ammo and it did no better.

Really, I always thought that a 4000 pound Chevy was better protected than a 2500 pound TOYOTA. I must have missed something.

As for drug induced failure to stop. GARBAGE! I never felt more threatened by an illegal drug user than by a common, violent drunk and drunks have been around for centuries. In fact, I worried more about the drunks as they were less predictable, in my experience.

The U.S. Army adopted the .38 Long Colt, a very similar round to the .38 Special and found that it failed to stop the MORO'S in the Philippine with terrible results to the U.S. Army officers using it. Of course, hunter, you only believe what you want to believe, like the English army was so much smarter and more intelligent that it adopted the .38 S&W based round when the U.S. Army running its own tests decided on the .45ACP. Since the .38 fell into disfavor and the .45ACP hung around for another 30 or so years in U.S. service, I can guess which one knew what it was doing.

Jim

???

A lot of disconnected thoughts there, but OK...

Yes- the .38 Special 158 gr LRN was slowly replaced when it's performance was no longer deem acceptable. It was a progressive process, not overnight across the county. Not a huge revelation there.

The 4000 lb Chevy from the late 60's into the 70's is exactly what I was referencing by "better protected", not a later model economized car.

The Moros were known to be doped-up and bound with hemorrhaging reducing ropes before attacking US personnel. The fact that the .38 Long Colt had issues with them just reinforces why the .38 Special 158 gr LRN had issues with individuals on substances such as PCP.

I am not quite sure how the interwar revolver cartridge selection by the British Army has to do with the topic on the .38 Special 158 gr LRN in US police duty, but you are free to write what you want.

 

[StrawHat]

During the 1930s, Police asked for a better cartridge than the 38 Special. Colt responded with the 38 Super and S&W responded with the 38/44 Heavy Duty. Both are still impressive cartridges.

Kevin

 

[ThomasT]

I like my 158 gr. cast SWC's. These were fired into water baskets from one of my .38 Specials.

What bullet mold were those cast from? They look great.

Ah yes, the "widowmaker" line makes another appearance. The wives of the number of criminals it put in the ground would agree. The .38 Special in the 158 gr LRN loading provided adequate performance out of size efficient and controllable duty guns for over 50 years. Its main fault was hard target penetration, and while the 200 gr loading increased soft target performance, it further decreased hard target effects. The three issues that pushed it from duty were:

My uncle was a Ft Worth cop and used a 158gr RNL once while on duty to make a widow of the mans wife he killed with one shot. Gotta love it when these old platitudes keep getting repeated.

As for the Moro's and the 38 long colt round it was initially a good round that worked as needed. According to an article in Guns And Ammo many years ago written by Jack Lott the 38 Colt worked until the fighting moved south and there even the reissued 45 Colt failed to stop the attackers. As did the 30-40 Krag rifle. I suspect the real problem was getting good shots one two or three screaming Meemee's running out of the brush at you with raised machettes. Thats why the 1897 shotgun was a better stopper. Just easier to aim and get a hit with.

I wish I could scan in that old article from the 1980s but I don't think its allowed. I think it was filled with a lot more facts than most of the stories you read about the Philippine war.

 

[35 Whelen]

What bullet mold were those cast from? They look great.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/358/360-172-swc-bc1/360-172-swc-rg4-cavity-gc-keith/

35W

 

[DR505]

I still have about 50 rounds left of 158 grain LSWCHP +P from my time in the Bureau. From a 4" barrel it works great. On a side note, when we qualified on the revolver course it started at 50 yards and moved in. When we switched to semi autos, the pistol course began at 25 yards and moved in. Now it starts at 3 yards and moves out to 25 yards. I always liked starting at the far range as the target got bigger as you advanced through the course of fire.