.38 Special in 4” Service Guns?

[earplug]

I trust that manufactures of firearms would regulate their weapons for effective ammunition. The study of jacketed and hollow point smokeless projectiles is over a hundred years mature. Fire off a fancy 90-110 grain 38 SPL in a low light condition at a vital size target and do the same with a 158 grain load.
Bullet weights outside the norm tend to fill a small perceived market or need.

That would only be because that is the most common weight in 38 Special ammo. It does not mean that weight will provide the best terminal ballistics. Ammo performance is completely different than what weight the sights might be tuned to.

 

[MedWheeler]

I mentioned (post 4) my old agency having issued the 95-grain Winchester +P Silvertip, and having felt that it was far too light for police duty. I forgot to mention that I actually used the round to fell a rogue boar that was acting aggressively in a residential neighborhood. I fired three rounds into it from above it (it had jumped into a narrow waterway and I was standing in a small boat a resident had taken me aboard.) The rounds didn't perform that well, expanding quite a bit, but not getting in very deep.

Of course, boar hogs are pretty thick.

 

[MedWheeler]

Incidentally, here's from a prior post of mine in an old thread regarding lightweight bullets vs heavier ones, and an experience of mine..

>>>I leaned this in LE training. Thousands of rounds of training ammo was used (back in the day of .38 caliber wheelguns.) It was all commercially-sourced 158-grain LSWC reloads.

When qualification day came, we were to shoot our actual "for-the-money" qualification scores with our agency-issued ammo, but would first shoot a couple of "practice runs" with the training stuff. I had become very adept at shooting this stuff, besting 36 of the other 43 recruits in my class in an informal score run the day before.

My agency-issued duty ammo was Winchester 95-grain Silvertip +P HP rounds, and I noticed I had enough of it to shoot the last practice run with it, so I did.

My score tanked. My shots grouped horribly low. I had expected the "+P" stuff to have some kick, but the ultra-light bullet was just too quick in getting out of the muzzle to flip it back or up.

I was very glad that I had done that. While I did not have time to raise my rear sight on my issued S&W M67, I was able to aim higher to compensate, and my "real" scores got right back where they belonged (we shot the qual-course five times, dropped the lowest score, and averaged the remaining four for final score.)<<<

 

[Sistema1927]

I have been carrying the Federal HST 130 gr. in 2", 3", and 4" .38 revolvers. The only downside, to me at least, is the fact that you need a different reload (Speer 135 GD) because the HST has the same profile as a wadcutter.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/tested-federal-hst-38-special-p/

 

[velocette]

Best 158 LSWC HP I've found have been the Buffalo Bore rounds. Swaged of soft lead with a gas check. They meet or exceed their advertised velocities in 2" snubbies
In the expansion tests I've seen, they performed very well and better than any other .38 spl defensive load. The standard velocity rounds are hot and their +P ammo have recoil in my 640 that is punishing. (but nowhere near as bad a .357 Mag in a snubbie.)

 

[fastbolt]

I carried .357MAG in my early LE days. However, after our then-new 4" 686's were being issued to replace the 66's, we were told to temporarily stop carrying Magnum ammo until the guns could be retrofitted with the revised FP's and FP bushings (factory revision due to some reported primer flow issues with Magnum loads). I switched out my Magnum loads for some 158gr Federal Nyclad +P I was carrying in a snub at the time. The only thing I had to use it for was to dispatch a gravely injured deer that kept dragging itself back onto a roadway. The bullet completely expanded after passing through the skull. I used the W-W 158rg LSWCHP +P for other deer, but I have no idea whether they expanded or not.

As time went on and more testing was being done with the various 158gr LSWCHP/LHP +P loads, it seemed the softer Remington version became pretty popular and did well in some various gel/ballistic testing. The W-W version seemed to use a harder lead. I didn't see or hear much of the Federal 158's, except for the Nyclad line. I went with the 125gr & 158gr Nyclads for my off-duty snubs, hoping their softer, nylon-clad lead might deform and expand more consistently at the lower velocities realized in the shorter barrels.

The 110gr +P+ load was favored by some agencies, including the CHP here in CA, for those field offices where officers didn't qualify with Magnum. A friend of mine working for the CHP in those days carried either Magnum or .38SPL +P+, depending on the field office where he worked. He said both calibers seemed to work well enough in various OIS incidents.

I didn't hear much firsthand about the 125gr +P's used in those days, although a former partner of mine had come from another agency who issued 125gr +P for use in their 4" .38SPL service revolvers, and he said it hadn't exactly enjoyed a great reputation among the officers after being used in OIS incidents. He said he was much happier being able to carry .357MAG when he came over to us ... but then he had to transition over to the new 9's that replaced our service revolvers after only a couple of years following his arrival.

FWIW, nowadays there are some more modern good choices available in the 125gr, 130gr & 135gr +P JHP's. I tend to favor the 125gr Rem Golden Sabre +P, because I've seen it do well in gel testing (at a hosted gel event) fired out of a short barreled J-frame in the 4LD test, but I have more remaining loads of the older Speer 125gr +P Gold Dot. Since I've put back a supply of both Winchester RA38B (PDX1) 130gr +P and Speer's 135gr GDHP for my 5-shot snubs, I'd not be averse to them in my 3" & 4" .38's & .357's.

BTW, in the older days of the 95gr SilverTip, it was often reported that the light 95gr bullet weight resulted in a low point of impact. The slightly heavier 110gr loads seemed to enjoy a better reputation in that regard. I have a M37 built on the older Airweight frame, so it's only seen standard pressure loads, and the 110gr Winchester, Federal and Hornady loads have all provided good POA/POI out of the short barrels in my snub. The standard pressure Hornady 110gr Critical Defense/FTX is especially a tack-driver out of my various snubs.

 

[golden]

When I started in law enforcement, my first issued revolver was a S&W model 13 with a 3 inch barrel and round butt grips. They were supposed to be the FBI guns that were refused after the disaster in MIAMI. The Bureau decided to go with the 10m.m. which became another disaster. My agency had switched from 110 grain +P+ .38 Special to 110 grain .357 magnum ammo after a number of failure to stop. With the magnum ammo, the problem went away.

That said, I keep a .38 Special in my home, as a backup house gun. It is a 4 inch S&W model 15. In my car, I keep a CHARTER ARMS .38 Special Undercover with a 2 inch barrel.in my car when I travel as well. I use FEDERAL 130 grain +P HST ammo exclusively for my carry load in the gun. Because of the wadcutter profile, I use DOUBLE TAP 110 grain ammo for reloads in my speedloaders.

I think that the FEDERAL 130 grain HST is the best defensive load for a revolver. It slow reloading speed is the only real negative. The positives are great expansion and mild recoil for the power level. I think it works better than the 158 grain Semi Wadcutter rounds as well.
I just wish they would use the HST technology to develop .44 Special, .45 Auto Rim and .45 Long Colt. That would be really spectacular. Even a .32 S&W Long version be interesting. It might make the round a useful defense round.

Jim

 

[buck460XVR]

I think if you put more emphasis on shooting the gun and hitting what you were aiming at, you'll be better off, than worrying about what the ammo in the gun is.

^^^This is my opinion also. Yet......one does need to consider the terminal performance of ammo also, whether it be expansion, penetration or likeliness of a pass-thru and thus the of endangering others. I've found the old Remington 158gr SJHPs loaded just to the cusp of +p, shoot to point of aim out of my 637 with moderate recoil. Probably better performing bullets out there, but odds are the amount is minimal. Same can be said for the old "FBI" load. Within the parameters of a .38 special, it's performance is going to be very close to even the most modern and touted SD bullet/load out there. Just how it is. Humans are thin skinned for the most part and easy to put down as compared to game animals. Even a FMJ .38 is going to make a good size hole and leak a lot of blood if placed in COM. So, it's just a matter of putting the rounds in COM.

 

[chicharrones]

I carried .357MAG in my early LE days. However, after our then-new 4" 686's were being issued to replace the 66's, we were told to temporarily stop carrying Magnum ammo until the guns could be retrofitted with the revised FP's and FP bushings (factory revision due to some reported primer flow issues with Magnum loads).

Damn, I was unaware that was a thing back then. My 66-2 has that exact problem with some .357 magnum ammo. I can't advance the cylinder with the trigger or hammer when it happens. I have to open the cylinder and clear out the spent brass.

 

[fastbolt]

Damn, I was unaware that was a thing back then. My 66-2 has that exact problem with some .357 magnum ammo. I can't advance the cylinder with the trigger or hammer when it happens. I have to open the cylinder and clear out the spent brass.

From what we were told, it was only a potential problem when some Magnum ammunition might be used. The inference seemed to be that it happened with some imported brand of Magnum ammo back then. Supposedly some brand with really soft primers that might flow into the FP bushing hole and capture the FP nose. That factory revision was only for the early L-frames, and wasn't for the other models, although primer flow is something of which to be aware if soft primers are being used.

Agencies were offered the option of returning the guns to the factory for the retrofit, or agency armorer's would be sent a retrofit field kit (tools & instructions) to do it themselves. My agency opted for the field kit to do it. I wasn't an armorer at the time, but I later inherited the field tool kit & instructions many years after revolvers had stopped being used as our service weapons. The only thing I couldn't find among the kit's tools was the "M" punch stamp used to mark the frame in the yoke area when the guns were modified.

 

[fastbolt]

... My agency had switched from 110 grain +P+ .38 Special to 110 grain .357 magnum ammo after a number of failure to stop. With the magnum ammo, the problem went away....

The .38SPL +P+ Treasury Load got some mixed reviews, granted, but so did the 110gr .357MAG load. I remember in the 70's when the 110gr Magnum load was predicted to be highly effective in the LEAA computer modeling (3D computer projection of predicted anatomical trauma measured down to 1 sq inch sections in a computer modeled person), but then some larger agencies experienced some less than satisfactory results after adopting and using it in actual OIS incidents. My friend's agency, the CHP, inventoried it for some years. They also inventoried Magnum loads, but I was told that varied among the field offices. The officers were required to carry only ammunition provided for duty and off-duty use, meaning it had to be issued by their field offices, and it had to be used for all range practice and quals.

Then again, while the 110gr JHP might've lacked a bit on the 'penetration' side of things when boosted to Magnum velocities, I always suspected that the results reported in OIS incidents might be just as much the result of shot placement, as the caliber & bullet weight being used.

The 110 Magnum loads were said to offer more flame cutting potential (top strap and cylinder face erosion), due to the powders used for the light bullets, but they were also reported by shooters to be more controllable. Pick your poison.

 

[Haywood]

Yes and Yes! Used the Winchester FBI load, Federal Nyclad 158 SWC, Federal Nyclad 158 SWC-HP and the Speer Gold Dot 135 Short Barrel. The 158 Grain loads were always respected in a 4” revolver, they never performed from a 2” gun. The .38’s were retired for capacity reasons, the rounds were performing well. This is why the Speer Gold Dot was invented. NYPD had moved to semi autos and settled on the 9mm Gold Dot 124 Grain after a few years. After the semi’s started finding its way to most holsters in uniform there were still primarily 2” revolvers used in the Detective Squads, by Desk Officers and Administrative folks not to mention everyone still utilized a 2” revolver for back-up and off duty use. The 158 Nyclad’s were just not the best choice in the snubbies. NYPD and Speer designed the 135 Grsin load specifically for the use of the 2” revolver. I still use it myself. NYPD provides a huge ammo market for makers. The 135 Grain bullet (Short Barrel) was designed to open up from a 2” gun and still able to meet penetration and expansions thresholds from 3 and 4” guns. I still load all my .38 revolvers with the Speer Product. If you can find some FBI type loads don’t overlook them though, a great round in a 4” revolver.

I had posted earlier in your new revolver thread that I thought the Buffalo Bore FBI type load would be perfect in your revolver due to its abundance of heft for the caliber. It’s basically a 158 SWC-HP Gas Check but hard cast not swagged. It is moving at over 1000 FPS in a 4” gun and would do nicely bridging the gap of a .357 without the felt recoil one would get from a snub. That being said, neither the Speer nor the Federal FBI load will disappoint.

Massad Ayoob reported that the NYPD had good results with 135gr Speer Gold Dot 38+P. They were pleased with how it stoped Bad Guys. There report lead to other PDs allowing there Officers to carry it.

 

[Jonesy814]

Follow up shots should be pretty quick and accurate with 38's in a GP100, regardless of the load, and that's important.

 

[Monster Zero]

When I started in law enforcement, my first issued revolver was a S&W model 13 with a 3 inch barrel and round butt grips. They were supposed to be the FBI guns that were refused after the disaster in MIAMI. The Bureau decided to go with the 10m.m. which became another disaster. My agency had switched from 110 grain +P+ .38 Special to 110 grain .357 magnum ammo after a number of failure to stop. With the magnum ammo, the problem went away.

That said, I keep a .38 Special in my home, as a backup house gun. It is a 4 inch S&W model 15. In my car, I keep a CHARTER ARMS .38 Special Undercover with a 2 inch barrel.in my car when I travel as well. I use FEDERAL 130 grain +P HST ammo exclusively for my carry load in the gun. Because of the wadcutter profile, I use DOUBLE TAP 110 grain ammo for reloads in my speedloaders.

I think that the FEDERAL 130 grain HST is the best defensive load for a revolver. It slow reloading speed is the only real negative. The positives are great expansion and mild recoil for the power level. I think it works better than the 158 grain Semi Wadcutter rounds as well.
I just wish they would use the HST technology to develop .44 Special, .45 Auto Rim and .45 Long Colt. That would be really spectacular. Even a .32 S&W Long version be interesting. It might make the round a useful defense round.

Jim

BB makes wadcutters in .32 long and in .44 special. Not sure about .45 Colt or .45 auto rim.

 

[.455_Hunter]

My favorite .38 Special loads are the vintage 200 gr RNL, the various 158 gr LSWC (non-HP) from standard pressure to the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman,158 gr JSP +P, and 158 gr FMJ +P. These are preferred loads in non-urban areas.

For hollow points, I tend to use the 110 gr Silvertip, 135 gr Gold Dot +P, 158 gr XTP, or my stash of 147 gr goodness from the 90's.

 

[Dinomite]

MedWheeler,

Your comments about the Silvertip ammo
reminded me of the once popular "+P+ .38
Treasury load." It was a 110 grain round
with pressures pushing well beyond any
.38 levels. I believe it was designed
for Treasury's use of the Smith Model 19
with 2.5-inch barrel.

I have some of these 110 gr rounds that I use in my snub.

 

[Sistema1927]

BB makes wadcutters in .32 long and in .44 special. Not sure about .45 Colt or .45 auto rim.

The HST is not a wadcutter, but the bullet sits flush like one. It is a "whole 'nother ballgame" when it comes to performance compared to the wadcutter.

Any factory ammo in .32 S&W Long is pretty anemic. It has to be, since there are plenty of old revolvers that are pretty weak. In a good S&W Hand Ejector or Regulation Police, you can hotrod that round considerably without problem, and I have some loads that are just a tad less feisty than the .32 H&R Magnum without showing pressure signs. (But, only do this if you know what you are doing, and are willing to work up.)

 

[JCooperfan1911]

My favorite .38 Special loads are the vintage 200 gr RNL, the various 158 gr LSWC (non-HP) from standard pressure to the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman,158 gr JSP +P, and 158 gr FMJ +P. These are preferred loads in non-urban areas.

For hollow points, I tend to use the 110 gr Silvertip, 135 gr Gold Dot +P, 158 gr XTP, or my stash of 147 gr goodness from the 90's.

Interesting. It seems most test show rhe 158 XTPs as not opening up.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Interesting. It seems most test show rhe 158 XTPs as not opening up.

I guess I don't always rate maximum expansion as being absolutely vital for my needs.

 

[Homerboy]

Strange, they always said it meant NYlon CLAD

I think he meant it was designed for New York. And the purpose was to minimize the lead in the sir at both the outdoor range, and the several indoor ranges throughout the city.
I am retired NYPD also and remember the Nyclads. Still have a few boxes of each of the SWC and the HP version. The off duty 2” guns used the same 158 grain ammo until the late 90’s or early 2000’s. Matter of fact, the two speed loaders in the safe next to the .38 are Nyclads HP’s. I shoot a cylinder every few years or so and they still work fine. After the Amadou Diallo shooting in 1997, where the cops were shooting 115 grain fmj in their 9MM’s, which failed miserably, the job went to hollow point ammo in all weapons, .38 included.

 

[wcwhitey]

I think he meant it was designed for New York. And the purpose was to minimize the lead in the sir at both the outdoor range, and the several indoor ranges throughout the city.
I am retired NYPD also and remember the Nyclads. Still have a few boxes of each of the SWC and the HP version. The off duty 2” guns used the same 158 grain ammo until the late 90’s or early 2000’s. Matter of fact, the two speed loaders in the safe next to the .38 are Nyclads HP’s. I shoot a cylinder every few years or so and they still work fine. After the Amadou Diallo shooting in 1997, where the cops were shooting 115 grain fmj in their 9MM’s, which failed miserably, the job went to hollow point ammo in all weapons, .38 included.

The Diallo shooting is a perfect example of the wrong ammo for the job. For political reasons NYPD started its 9mm evolution with 10 round magazines (in Glock 19’s and Sig 226’s) using the 115 grain FMJ. Housing got the only hollow points at the time being quasi Federally influenced, they used Winchester 147 Sub Sonic. Diallo had multiple hits front an rear, it looked like he was shot from the rear several times. Turned out to be the 115 Grain rounds passed thru and thru only to ricochet off a brick wall behind him making reentry wounds. Like magic, hollow points for everyone. I witnessed and investigated several shooting from that time and past. That was the only time I remember an ammunition failure. The NYCLAD SWC worked well as did the later SWC-HP, the Speer 135 Short barrel .38 just plain works as does the 9mm 124 grain Gold Dots. That’s why to this day my .38’s get the 135 grain short Barrel and the 124 Grain Gold Dot in my nines. Helps to have a few boxes laying around.
An earlier poster pointed out that the Federal 158 SWC-HP was found lacking by Luckygunner, their tests are well done, I would tend to believe them. Other versions of the FBI load did well as did the Speer 135 Grain. My only carry revolvers in .38 are 1 7/8 J frames so the Short Barrel is perfect as it is for my wife’s 2” Model 10. For a 4” gun I would not hesitate to use a working version of the FBI load. In a heavy for caliber revolver like the OP’s Ruger the BB load would take it to the next level comfortably.

 

[Zendude]

The Winchester 38 special loads with 130 grain hollow points all tested well.

 

[golden]

FASTBOLT & ZERO & SYSTEMA,

I read that some agencies were not happy with the 110 grain .357, but my agency had very good results. Our choice was based on the guns we were issued. S&W model 13 revolvers with 3 inch barrels. We had an incident where some of the 125 grain ammo that was issued to officers with heavier guns, damaged the gun, so anything but 110 grain was out if we used .357 magnum ammo.
I had a private purchase S&W 681 and when the firearms instructors realized it was not a K-frame, they gave me 6 boxes of 125 grain ammo, so they could get it out of their inventory. Same thing when I qualified the next time.

The real difference between the +P+ .38 Special and the 110 grain .357 ammo was the velocity. The +P+ might hit 1100 feet per second out of our guns, but the 110 grain .357 ammo was just above or below 1300 feet per second, depending on which brand of ammo we were issued. I know that it worked well with several of the officers I worked with.

The HST load is not a wadcutter, but has a profile like one which makes it slow to reload and a real pain with speedloaders. I would like to see this type of bullet sold in other calibers like I mentioned. It gives you excellent results without the extra recoil.

As far as the .32 S&W Long, it is probably to weak a cartridge for effective defence unless something like the HST is developed. If forced to load up my old H&R to defend myself, I would use wadcutters since the sqaured off edge of the bullet might (maybe, but not sure) be more effective than the 98 grain round nose lead which has to be even less effective than the .38 Special round nose lead and that round was known as the widow maker!

Jim

 

[Homerboy]

The Diallo shooting is a perfect example of the wrong ammo for the job. For political reasons NYPD started its 9mm evolution with 10 round magazines (in Glock 19’s and Sig 226’s) using the 115 grain FMJ. Housing got the only hollow points at the time being quasi Federally influenced, they used Winchester 147 Sub Sonic. Diallo had multiple hits front an rear, it looked like he was shot from the rear several times. Turned out to be the 115 Grain rounds passed thru and thru only to ricochet off a brick wall behind him making reentry wounds. Like magic, hollow points for everyone. I witnessed and investigated several shooting from that time and past. That was the only time I remember an ammunition failure. The NYCLAD SWC worked well as did the later SWC-HP, the Speer 135 Short barrel .38 just plain works as does the 9mm 124 grain Gold Dots. That’s why to this day my .38’s get the 135 grain short Barrel and the 124 Grain Gold Dot in my nines. Helps to have a few boxes laying around.
An earlier poster pointed out that the Federal 158 SWC-HP was found lacking by Luckygunner, their tests are well done, I would tend to believe them. Other versions of the FBI load did well as did the Speer 135 Grain. My only carry revolvers in .38 are 1 7/8 J frames so the Short Barrel is perfect as it is for my wife’s 2” Model 10. For a 4” gun I would not hesitate to use a working version of the FBI load. In a heavy for caliber revolver like the OP’s Ruger the BB load would take it to the next level comfortably.

Yep. I seem to recall the reason Housing and Transit had hollow point is because they worked in “concrete and steel rich environments”, as if the rest of NYC wasn’t concrete and steel. Not to mention I spent a lot of my tour in housing projects since housing was never available. Not their fault. 3 cars to cover 4 or 5 precincts and probably 12-15 projects. The job knew fmj were likely to ricochet but didn’t care until after Diallo. I seem to recall the ricochets being a factor in the 41 shots fired. The officers own rounds were coming back at them. 2 of the 19 rounds that hit Diallo were fatal, but not immediately incapacitating. The other 17 rounds fired at maybe 5 yards were all survivable. The abysmal ammo played a huge part in that shooting, and you’re right, new ammo was handed out at the next qualification. No different than allowing speed loaders after Gadell getting killed while fumbling to reload his revolver. Let a tragedy happen rather than ruffle the feathers or the rabble rousers.

 

[HowieG]

I have a Smith model 67 square butt 4 inch I picked up from a Federal agent's wife after he passed. I was working for the agency as a contractor at the time. My plus P load for it is a 110 grain Win HP in front of enough HS6 to reach 1003 fps. Extreme spread during testing was 59 fps. Standard deviation was 18.