.38 Special in 4” Service Guns?

[.455_Hunter]

On a side note, when we qualified on the revolver course it started at 50 yards and moved in. When we switched to semi autos, the pistol course began at 25 yards and moved in.

Chuckle. Why would ever need to shoot at 50 yards?

 

[DR505]

Chuckle. Why would ever need to shoot at 50 yards?

Not very often, but it is possible. The instances are few but the two I am familiar with were both important; active shooters both, one at a school.

They switched to 25 and in. Initially it was 18 rounds at 25 yards. When I retired it was 4 rounds at 25 yards IIRC, with the majority 7 yards and in. They started training to reflect most agent involved shootings, but still wanted to maintain some distance accuracy.

 

[Toros]

What’s your impression of the 145gn 357 Silvertip?

Seemed to be a good round. Only shot it at semi-annual qualifications.
Early 80s, we trained in The Academy and qualified with what was called the police tactical revolver course. As was mentioned, you started at 50 yards... prone, weak hand and strong hand barricade. Than moved in to 25 yards, 7 yards and ending at 3 yards. Also, at that time, law enforcement ballistics data was compiled into what was called the Relative Incapacitation Index, many types of ammunition from LE agencies throughout the country were listed in it..different calibers of course. I think it was ballistic gelatin or cadaver research and results. The Winchester Silvertips performed very well and that was guidance then.

 

[Toros]

Chuckle. Why would ever need to shoot at 50 yards?

Yeah, I used to wonder that too. But that was what NJSP Academy firearms training was in the early 80s. It was called the Police Tactical Revolver course. 50, 25, 10, 7, 3 yards.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Yeah, I used to wonder that too. But that was what NJSP Academy firearms training was in the early 80s. It was called the Police Tactical Revolver course. 50, 25, 10, 7, 3 yards.

Sounds likes a much better program than current ones that pretend threats at distance can't exist.

 

[Toros]

Sounds likes a much better program than current ones that pretend threats at distance can't exist.

For sure they do...just harder to see and hit from that distance especially with a 4" revolver! Looking back on it, I think the intended purpose was to give hands on practice for shooting from barricade or cover positions i.e.. behind the tire/wheel of a car, over the hood of a car and prone. However you certainly made up your qualifying hits from 25, 10, 7 and 3.

 

[wcwhitey]

Sounds likes a much better program than current ones that pretend threats at distance can't exist.

Problem is our litigious society. Although most here know better it is hard to convince a jury that a threat is really a threat at a 50 yard distance. The new trend in Patrol Carbines also covers that distance a bit better. When it was a .38 and Remington 870 things were a bit different. Police shootings are pretty much self preservation at contact and slightly beyond these days. No more shooting fleeing felons. Returning fire at anything beyond cross the street distance would be frowned upon, down the street is out of the question.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Problem is our litigious society. Although most here know better it is hard to convince a jury that a threat is really a threat at a 50 yard distance. The new trend in Patrol Carbines also covers that distance a bit better. When it was a .38 and Remington 870 things were a bit different. Police shootings are pretty much self preservation at contact and slightly beyond these days. No more shooting fleeing felons. Returning fire at anything beyond cross the street distance would be frowned upon, down the street is out of the question.

My thought was more along the lines of engagement of long-gun armed suspects at distance. Not every scenario gives you the chance to grab your patrol carbine, and its much better to have some training on handgun shooting at distance than trying to learn on the fly in a real situation.

 

[wcwhitey]

My thought was more along the lines of engagement of long-gun armed suspects at distance. Not every scenario gives you the chance to grab your patrol carbine, and its much better to have some training on handgun shooting at distance than trying to learn on the fly in a real situation.

Nothing wrong with training, however, twice a year qualification was never really training. It’s hard enough to get everyone to qualify with 70% at 3, 7 and 15 yards (true story). Not everyone is a gun person, many have never fired a weapon prior to the Academy. We as gun people look at that likes it’s bizarre but it is reality. There are some exceptions, rural Policing it makes sense. Also like the NJSP, solo cars, odd hours and being many miles from help it makes sense to do so. I spent many a day on a metal bowling pin machine at 50 yards to the point where it got fairly easy. Just have to take into consideration our society is now based on the lowest common denominator, basic qualification is not a sure thing with some. Your point is well taken and I wish it was still 1980.

In today’s environment one errant shot on an innocent at distance is enough to make the 24 hour news cycle across the nation, ruin a career and subject an officer to staggering scrutiny. For a private citizen it would be ALMOST impossible to justify a 50 yard shot in a public place. Private land may be the exception.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Nothing wrong with training, however, twice a year qualification was never really training. It’s hard enough to get everyone to qualify with 70% at 3, 7 and 15 yards (true story). Not everyone is a gun person, many have never fired a weapon prior to the Academy. We as gun people look at that likes it’s bizarre but it is reality. There are some exceptions, rural Policing it makes sense. Also like the NJSP, solo cars, odd hours and being many miles from help it makes sense to do so. I spent many a day on a metal bowling pin machine at 50 yards to the point where it got fairly easy. Just have to take into consideration our society is now based on the lowest common denominator, basic qualification is not a sure thing with some. Your point is well taken and I wish it was still 1980.

In today’s environment one errant shot on an innocent at distance is enough to make the 24 hour news cycle across the nation, ruin a career and subject an officer to staggering scrutiny. For a private citizen it would be ALMOST impossible to justify a 50 yard shot in a public place. Private land may be the exception.

In the aftermath of the Los Angeles Bank of America robbery, forensic analysis of the perpetrators body armor recovered way more 125 gr .38 JHPs than should have statistically present based on the number of rounds fired by the LAPD that day. Not that they were any more effective than the 9mm loads or 00 buck, but just that the older officers still shooting the various K-frame S&W's could hit their targets at extended range.

 

[wcwhitey]

In the aftermath of the Los Angeles Bank of America robbery, forensic analysis of the perpetrators body armor recovered way more 125 gr .38 JHPs than should have statistically present based on the number of rounds fired by the LAPD that day. Not that they were any more effective than the 9mm loads or 00 buck, but just that the older officers still shooting the various K-frame S&W's could hit their targets at extended range.

I was just looking that up to see how many civilians were struck or injured, 12 was the number. It does happen and you are 100% correct that it is a skill that is good to have. I have been shooting all my life, casually and competitively so it was never really a skill I had to be taught by an agency. I don’t see any agency returning to that though for the reasons I mentioned earlier. The North Hollywood Shootout was in 1997, a different time and feels like a different planet.

It was also after this that every LA car received a M16A2

 

[Toros]

Nothing wrong with training, however, twice a year qualification was never really training. It’s hard enough to get everyone to qualify with 70% at 3, 7 and 15 yards (true story). Not everyone is a gun person, many have never fired a weapon prior to the Academy. We as gun people look at that likes it’s bizarre but it is reality. There are some exceptions, rural Policing it makes sense. Also like the NJSP, solo cars, odd hours and being many miles from help it makes sense to do so. I spent many a day on a metal bowling pin machine at 50 yards to the point where it got fairly easy. Just have to take into consideration our society is now based on the lowest common denominator, basic qualification is not a sure thing with some. Your point is well taken and I wish it was still 1980.

In today’s environment one errant shot on an innocent at distance is enough to make the 24 hour news cycle across the nation, ruin a career and subject an officer to staggering scrutiny. For a private citizen it would be ALMOST impossible to justify a 50 yard shot in a public place. Private land may be the exception.

We had no patrol carbine. Few outfits did in the early 80s. That was also the transition period from revolvers to mostly 9mm pistols.
Revolvers and 870s were the order of the day then.
Also, you are spot on about twice per year qualifications but anyone that didn't practice on their own certainly was no one you wanted to work with.

 

[Speedo66]

The last HR218 Re-qual I did in Sept., first course of fire they had us draw and fire from the hip at spitting distance, maybe 1-2 yards.

My initial academy range back in 1969 had bullet marks on the floor, ceiling, and walls.

 

[UncleEd]

In the aftermath of the Los Angeles Bank of America robbery, forensic analysis of the perpetrators body armor recovered way more 125 gr .38 JHPs than should have statistically present based on the number of rounds fired by the LAPD that day.

I found this to be one of the most interesting
bits of info in this thread.

 

[BJung]

I was surfing around and found your posts. Here is a 135gr Gold Dot loaded in a 38 Special case and shot into 2 jugs of water (or was it 3 jugs of water?). The bullet next to it is a .45 LRN. I've shot inverted 148gr HBWC and it shattered in the first just. As for the Widowmaker, I'll look for some of those bullets and test it. If it was close to pure lead. I think drilling a hole in the tip, creasing it by hammering a philips scredriver in that hole, and fillingi it with an expander like caulk will make it open up. Lastly is the FBI load. I think it will work. A soft lead alloy will work fine. To increase speed, retain accuracy and expansion, a gas check on the base would fix that

 

[Rockrivr1]

Interesting thread. My uncle was a small town LE back in the early to mid 60s. He was issued a S&W 15-3 in 38spl. When he passed away in the 80s he left me that revolver as well as a box of ammo for it. The box was full of lose hand made 158 gr LSWC ammo that I understand was the standard carry ammo back then. I shot some of it from his revolver and it was pretty accurate ammo from 10 yards. Though smokeless had a different meaning back then.

 

[UncleEd]

Today the REVOLVERGUY.com published an
extensive article on the .38, the history and
the technical facts on +P and +P+ ratings.
Accompanying the article are equally long
and valuable notes on the .38 special.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Today the REVOLVERGUY.com published an
extensive article on the .38, the history and
the technical facts on +P and +P+ ratings.
Accompanying the article are equally long
and valuable notes on the .38 special.

Very interesting! Thanks.

 

[UncleEd]

The folks over at REVOLVERGUY invite
THR members to join in its comments
section regarding the .38 Special article.
I think posters here who were LEOs
that used the .38 might find the info
extremely interesting.

 

[Homerboy]

Interesting thread. My uncle was a small town LE back in the early to mid 60s. He was issued a S&W 15-3 in 38spl. When he passed away in the 80s he left me that revolver as well as a box of ammo for it. The box was full of lose hand made 158 gr LSWC ammo that I understand was the standard carry ammo back then. I shot some of it from his revolver and it was pretty accurate ammo from 10 yards. Though smokeless had a different meaning back then.

Was the 15-3 produced at the same time as the 15-2? I have a 15-2 that is confirmed made in 1967.

 

[fxvr5]

Though smokeless had a different meaning back then.

Probably just from the lube. Wax lubed cast bullets smoke like crazy.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

The folks over at REVOLVERGUY invite
THR members to join in its comments
section regarding the .38 Special article.
I think posters here who were LEOs
that used the .38 might find the info
extremely interesting.

Do you perhaps have a link we can share?

 

[dannyd]

Today the REVOLVERGUY.com published an
extensive article on the .38, the history and
the technical facts on +P and +P+ ratings.
Accompanying the article are equally long
and valuable notes on the .38 special.

We have a great deal of different loads for the 38 special between 1902 and today.

 

[Agsalaska]

I have a Smith & Wesson Model 10-10 loaded with Federal 130 gr. +p micro in my day safe. That thing is a straight up point and shoot killer of a gun.

4 inch heavy barrel.

 

[Autodidactic]

That is a good catch, Winchester was the brand of 158-SWC HP that was sought after back in the day. The Federal NYCLAD was made for LE originally in the 158 SWC then the SWC-HP and was a LE loading. The NY in NYCLAD was for New York and a range called Rodman’s Neck that overlooked the Hudson River and lead dust was a concern for the wild life and the range staff. It worked as designed but no way to know if it was loaded at different levels over today’s commercial loading. I would also question the new Winchester Train and Defense version of the 158 bullet. Apparently the Defense version is decent but the Training is a bit slower. I will say this about the SWC’s though, they were greatly superior to the old RNL because of the bullet design and +P velocity. It took quite a while (mid to late 90’s) before the NYC politics got comfortable with a hollow point in the first place. So the SWC not HP was what we had, it worked and worked well though. So one would draw the conclusion that the shape of the bullet helped that, so and non expanding SWC-HP is still a SWC and has some advantages over rounded jacketed bullets that fail to open.

I’m still learning, but isn’t that why some recommend a wadcutter or semi wadcutter in snubbies, because a lot of hollow points don’t expand out of them or don’t penetrate sufficiently?