.38 Special in 4” Service Guns?

[Autodidactic]

Best 158 LSWC HP I've found have been the Buffalo Bore rounds. Swaged of soft lead with a gas check. They meet or exceed their advertised velocities in 2" snubbies
In the expansion tests I've seen, they performed very well and better than any other .38 spl defensive load. The standard velocity rounds are hot and their +P ammo have recoil in my 640 that is punishing. (but nowhere near as bad a .357 Mag in a snubbie.)

I have the +p 158 grain lswhp and +125 grain JHP of Buffalo Bore’s. From tests I’ve seen online they really do seem to work, including Paul Harrel’s tests. Out of an Airweight though they have brutal recoil.. they are cited as low end .357 basically. I think they would be ideal in a larger gun to achieve something in between .38 special and .357. I think in some longer barreled guns they are putting out like 1200 fps.

 

[Autodidactic]

Yay or nay?

Underwood Ammo 38 Special +P 158 Grain Hard Cast Lead Flat Nose Box of (midwayusa.com)

This is comparable to the Buffalo Bore hardcast +P, but about $5 cheaper and I think cheaper shipping (another issue with BB).

This is I'm sure out of a 4 inch or more barrel, but it's impressive:

Product Information
Cartridge
38 Special +P
Grain Weight
158 Grains
Quantity
20 Round
Muzzle Velocity
1250 Feet Per Second
Muzzle Energy
555 Foot Pounds
Bullet Style
Flat Nose
Lead Free
No
Case Type
Nickel Plated
Primer
Boxer
Corrosive
No
Reloadable
Yes
Country of Origin
United States of America

 

[Autodidactic]

Nothing wrong with training, however, twice a year qualification was never really training. It’s hard enough to get everyone to qualify with 70% at 3, 7 and 15 yards (true story). Not everyone is a gun person, many have never fired a weapon prior to the Academy. We as gun people look at that likes it’s bizarre but it is reality. There are some exceptions, rural Policing it makes sense. Also like the NJSP, solo cars, odd hours and being many miles from help it makes sense to do so. I spent many a day on a metal bowling pin machine at 50 yards to the point where it got fairly easy. Just have to take into consideration our society is now based on the lowest common denominator, basic qualification is not a sure thing with some. Your point is well taken and I wish it was still 1980.

In today’s environment one errant shot on an innocent at distance is enough to make the 24 hour news cycle across the nation, ruin a career and subject an officer to staggering scrutiny. For a private citizen it would be ALMOST impossible to justify a 50 yard shot in a public place. Private land may be the exception.

Curious for your last point. Would there be an exception if a civilian was under fire from a sniper type attack? There have been a few of those.

 

[wcwhitey]

Curious for your last point. Would there be an exception if a civilian was under fire from a sniper type attack? There have been a few of those.

Every shot you make can and will be called into question. I guess in theory, the only answer is it would depend on quite a few variables.

 

[wcwhitey]

I’m still learning, but isn’t that why some recommend a wadcutter or semi wadcutter in snubbies, because a lot of hollow points don’t expand out of them or don’t penetrate sufficiently?

Yes, bullets with flat noses and sharp squared shoulders have traditionally found to produce more soft tissue damage than round nose projectiles. In calibers and barrels lengths that are border line velocity wise for reliable expansion a SWC-HP at least leaves you with a somewhat more aggressive bullet profile if it fails to expand. At least in my mind that always made sense. That being said there are so many new bullet designs on the market recently that it is hard to keep track. There are several that look really good but of which I have no experience.

Snubbies are just hard to get reliable expansion from. I would never fault a person for using a solid SWC or Full Wadcutter from the small guns. Light recoil, good accuracy and cheap price making practice more likely are not bad things. However, there are a few premium bullets that are known to be good performers from a .38 2”. I carry the Speer 135 Grain +P Short barrel. It works, I have seen it work and I have a bunch. That other than the 158 SWC-HP and SWC are the extent of my experience base except for sending others angrily at paper targets.

 

[Autodidactic]

Yes, bullets with flat noses and sharp squared shoulders have traditionally found to produce more soft tissue damage than round nose projectiles. In calibers and barrels lengths that are border line velocity wise for reliable expansion a SWC-HP at least leaves you with a somewhat more aggressive bullet profile if it fails to expand. At least in my mind that always made sense. That being said there are so many new bullet designs on the market recently that it is hard to keep track. There are several that look really good but of which I have no experience.

Snubbies are just hard to get reliable expansion from. I would never fault a person for using a solid SWC or Full Wadcutter from the small guns. Light recoil, good accuracy and cheap price making practice more likely are not bad things. However, there are a few premium bullets that are known to be good performers from a .38 2”. I carry the Speer 135 Grain +P Short barrel. It works, I have seen it work and I have a bunch. That other than the 158 SWC-HP and SWC are the extent of my experience base except for sending others angrily at paper targets.

Yes, that's my understanding overall, what you laid out. I have all of the above except the Speer Gold Dot as it's hard to find or $60 a box right now online. It appears there are a few that do expand and penetrate 12+ with snubbies, such as the Gold Dot.

Another is the Federal Punch +P, which I have in my 642 as we speak. I bought it because it apparently does expand and hit 12+ inches out of a snubbie.

To your point though, I have wadcutters and semi-wadcutters too, as well as the Buffalo Bore FBI Load (+P 158 grain LSWHP). I don't feel bad carrying any of these.

Federal Punch 9mm VS .38 Special ULTIMATE Test - YouTube

 

[WestKentucky]

A pretty fair comparison is use on deer. It gives you a very realistic idea of what a bullet will do when it hits flesh. I have seen the effects of a 38spl in multiple flavors on deer. Heavier is generally better and flat faces tend to cut better than pointy or round faces. I hope I never find out about 38spl on 2 legged vermin firsthand.

 

[Sistema1927]

Do you perhaps have a link we can share?

I don't know why folks have been hesitant to post this link. This is the 2nd thread where this article was mentioned and no linky.
https://revolverguy.com/all-about-the-38-special-p-and-38-special-p/

 

[Autodidactic]

I don't know why folks have been hesitant to post this link. This is the 2nd thread where this article was mentioned and no linky.
https://revolverguy.com/all-about-the-38-special-p-and-38-special-p/

Good article. I read it after people posting it here.

 

[wcwhitey]

It was posted in the other thread

 

[Autodidactic]

Why did they reduce the power of standard pressure .38 so much? It sounds like 1970's and earlier .38 was much more powerful.

Shooting with Hobie

"The factory ammo made back in the 1970s and earlier was hotter than that made today (see chart #1). I have seen the specifications for standard .38 Special ammunition from a 1940 catalog listing the velocity as 960 FPS with a 158 grain bullet. This load would clearly develop higher chamber pressure than the current +P load and yet it was used for decades in all models from Colt and S&W without incident. The current +P is really about what the .38 Special should be in standard form. But note that today's standard load is no longer what it once was, either. In 1940 it was the 158/960 that was considered standard. During most of my youth I recall the load as advertised at 158/870. I have a copy of the specifications for S&W/Fiocchi ammo that was packaged with new guns that appears to have been printed in 1970. It lists the 158 lead .38 Special load at 910 FPS. It also includes a 158 JHP at 1140 FPS (equaling the mighty 38/44 load), a 125 JHP at 1380 FPS and a 110 at 1390 FPS**. I have seen a ‘70s box of SuperVel .38s with the package labeled as containing a 158@955 load. This was the standard load in the early 1970s (although I didn’t recall SuperVel offering standard velocity ammo). Note that none of these loads were marked as +P, but were considered standard pressure and the ad bears no mention of not using this ammo in older guns or revolvers with alloy frames."