.44 special 255 gr hard cast enough for woods carry?

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Ive seen alotta things go pretty far and pretty motivated with some smaller
Calibers and loads. Then again not many that feel as above have actually been charged by black death so.......
 
MaxP said:
Oh I’m not going there. All I’m going to say is that I shot a 450 pounder in North Carolina a number of years ago right between the shoulder blades with my .500 Maximum (525 grain WLN at 1,350 fps) and it still ran off about 150 yards before piling up and conceding defeat. In other words, he still had plenty left to kill me had he been inclined. Just sayin’.../QUOTE]
Funny thing is I carried a 9mm trudging through the NC woods. Lee's lake to be exact. Didn't feel undergunned. I did upgrade to a .40 for work. Carried that felt confident. And someone hit a 400 pounder a half mile from my house. Had to bring out a roll back to get it off the road. Didn't see any hogs. This was back in 2005-2010. So hogs could have moved in around those parts. I'm back in Georgia.
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MaxP said:
Oh I’m not going there. All I’m going to say is that I shot a 450 pounder in North Carolina a number of years ago right between the shoulder blades with my .500 Maximum (525 grain WLN at 1,350 fps) and it still ran off about 150 yards before piling up and conceding defeat. In other words, he still had plenty left to kill me had he been inclined. Just sayin’...

Bears (of any sort) aren’t whitetail and they aren’t feral hogs...
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From Handloader No. 236- "Handloading the .44 S&W Special" - That same year I trailed a black bear that had been wounded with a .338 Winchester Magnum. After getting above the bear on the steep hillside, a 250-grain .44 Special bullet was planted squarely between his shoulders, cutting the spine and exiting between the front legs.

From my own experience- Thirty or so years ago I shot a Colorado bull elk with a 7x57 that dropped on the spot, then 20 years later I shot another with a 35 Whelen that ran a 100 yds. or so. Does that mean the little 7x57 is better for bull elk than a 35 Whelen? No. It means that a poorly placed shot with a large caliber is less effective than a well placed shot with a smaller one. You sort of unwittingly pointed that out.

35W
 
MaxP said:
That was Phil Shoemaker and the bear was running towards his client and not charging him. You can bet he wouldn’t have wanted that mouse gun had the bear charged him. That incident doesn’t make the 9mm a good bear gun irrespective of the type/size of the bear.
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No, according to Shoemaker, the bear had charged the clients, but when they fell back on the grass, it turned and moved towards Shoemaker.

Shoemaker thought enough of the performance of the Buffalo Bore 147 HC load to write Tim Sundles and tell him how the round worked on a big and dangerous critter at bad breath range. The letter can be found here:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

You are right, a 9MM isn’t a gun to go out and harvest a bear with. But in hunting, you should ethically carry enough gun to reliably take down an animal cleanly in a typical hunting situation with a single shot.

Self defense is different. Physics still apply for the bullet, but the paradigm shifts to as many rounds as needed to stop the threat, be it two legged or four.

To the original post, I’d say the .44 Special round will certainly work, but I’d probably load it in that DA revolver he has vice the SA...but thats just me.
 
35 Whelen said:
From Handloader No. 236- "Handloading the .44 S&W Special" - That same year I trailed a black bear that had been wounded with a .338 Winchester Magnum. After getting above the bear on the steep hillside, a 250-grain .44 Special bullet was planted squarely between his shoulders, cutting the spine and exiting between the front legs.

From my own experience- Thirty or so years ago I shot a Colorado bull elk with a 7x57 that dropped on the spot, then 20 years later I shot another with a 35 Whelen that ran a 100 yds. or so. Does that mean the little 7x57 is better for bull elk than a 35 Whelen? No. It means that a poorly placed shot with a large caliber is less effective than a well placed shot with a smaller one. You sort of unwittingly pointed that out.

35W
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But a CNS shot is really the most reliable stopper and frankly you can’t always count on getting CNS under duress. So the shooter got lucky and got the spine.

That bear I described wasn’t poorly shot at all. God only knows what might have transpired had it been hit with something lesser. But that’s speculation and I’m not in the business of guessing since every animal is a law unto itself. I’m hearing a lot of opinions here based on speculation. How many here have used handguns on bear? Hunting or otherwise? A pissed off bear is absolutely nothing to be trifled with. Hunt them with dogs and you will see how different they are than the clownish narrative many paint of them. I’ve seen them do scary things to dogs as they attempt to get to the humans.
 
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Buzznrose said:
No, according to Shoemaker, the bear had charged the clients, but when they fell back on the grass, it turned and moved towards Shoemaker.

Shoemaker thought enough of the performance of the Buffalo Bore 147 HC load to write Tim Sundles and tell him how the round worked on a big and dangerous critter at bad breath range. The letter can be found here:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

You are right, a 9MM isn’t a gun to go out and harvest a bear with. But in hunting, you should ethically carry enough gun to reliably take down an animal cleanly in a typical hunting situation with a single shot.

Self defense is different. Physics still apply for the bullet, but the paradigm shifts to as many rounds as needed to stop the threat, be it two legged or four.

To the original post, I’d say the .44 Special round will certainly work, but I’d probably load it in that DA revolver he has vice the SA...but thats just me.
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I am very familiar with this incident. American Hunter broke the story and I wrote the companion piece on Buffalo Bore’s Outdoorsman line of ammo. Tim Sundles is still amazed that folks think the 9mm is a good idea for bear. As I recall from Phil, the last shot was in the bear’s backside. He had the luxury of shooting it multiple times as it run across his front. Had he been the one being charged, things may have gone very wrong. But I’m speculating.

Here’s the link in his own words. Phil’s 7th and last shot was in its pelvic region as it ran off.

https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

Realistically, how many shots do you think you are going to get off on a charging bear? Five? Six? Probably one, maybe two. I’m not saying everyone should carry a .500 something or another, I’m saying horsepower is your friend if you can shoot it (that’s oversimplified, but you get the gist).
 
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35 Whelen said:
It sounds like you're comfortable with your Blackhawk .44 Special, so IMHO that should be the firearm you carry.

I have but one example of a load similar to the Buffalo Bore load to which you refer (255 gr. SWC @ ~1050 fps). A few years ago I took a raking shot on a buck with a .44 Special with a home-cast 258 gr. SWC that struck the buck in the left flank at about 1050 fps, travelled the length of his body, struck a bone somewhere along the way(see photo), and came to rest under the skin at the juncture of the right shoulder and the neck.

View attachment 908061

View attachment 908062

Not a black bear, I know, but still that's about 30" or so of penetration. Brian Pearce wrote a really good article on the .44 Special in which he mentions some of his kills with the cartridge.

Evidently you're not a handloader. A .44 Special such as your Blackhawk can quite easily be handloaded to "standard" .44 Magnum levels; i.e. a 250-ish gr. SWC at 1200 fps. I've tested such loads in my Flat Top Blackhawk and they were quite accurate out to 100 yds. If you foresee carrying your .44 Special in these situations in the future you might consider getting an inexpensive set up to load .44 Special; that is a hand press, a set of used dies and a cheap set of scales. Such a set up would probably cost half what a box of Buffalo Bore .44 Special ammunition costs.

35W
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I would chew that one back to round, run through the sizer and shoot something else with it.
 
Spine shots are lucky. Cant always count on em. I think what is sobering is watching some
Of the above mentioned loads not kill for minutes. On an animal that can run, the difference bw dropping at the sight of the shot and running is a few seconds. Elmer keith is a handgunning god around here to many and if he thought a 44 special was adequate he wouldnt have championed the 44 mag so loudly.

as far as the shoemaker incident. No doubt did he not have to hit the bear coming straight at him. Secondly the bear ran off to die somewhere else somewhat later. How this seems to be a good idea with a more determined aggressor is beyond me. I more want the results of greg brush hitting the big brownie at 10 yards and having it die and slide dead where he was standing. Just seems a little more
comforting.
 
As far as black bears go, i can give a nearly perfect
Case study between the effectiveness of some commonly used cartridges. My cousin shot a black bear with a 300 gr sierra 300 gr jsp at 1300fps just behind the onside shoulder and out through the opposite. Died in 7 seconds. My daughter did the same with a 44 mag 260 gr wfn at 1180 fps or so with the same placement. 3 minutes and one more shot and the bear was dead. My eldest son put a barnes 250 xpb at 1750 fps the same placement, all within 2” of the rear of the onside shoulder and out the middle of the offside. No spine, no cns, dropped drt. Only movement was to roll down the side of the mountain into a tree. No muss no fuss. I know which load i would want to stop a bear charging my 7 yo daughter on a hiking trail and which would be my distant last choice.
 
Bear Pepper Spray and the Ruger .44

https://www.cabelas.com/product/hun...power-magnum-bear-spray/2044402.uts?slotId=0#!

PA Revolver Guy,
I would not feel under gunned with your 200 grain load. Before I would consider the Underwood 255 grain load I would practice shooting with it. Personally, I have not been impressed with Underwood ammo’s offerings in .357, 9mm or .38 in regards to accuracy out of any of my guns.

If I encountered a stubborn bear I would put some of that pepper spray to work. If he’s more than 30 feet away and THE WIND IS WITH YOU I would spray a shot of towards the bear and let it get a nose full of that. If the wind is against you I definitely wouldn’t spray it...ask me how I know about this. :what: Luckily it wasn’t in a threat situation. I was testing pepper spray for distance.

A friend of mine also used to carry a coach’s whistle. He claimed the noise scared black bears. Not sure how he knew this as he had never encountered a bear but black bears can be spooked by weird noises. I scared one by whistling loudly, but every encounter (3) I have had with black bears the bear has run off without me having to do anything.
A bear that is reluctant to leave would definitely make me nervous. I would try a non-lethal approach first. Noise, spray and then gun.
 
MaxP said:
I am very familiar with this incident. American Hunter broke the story and I wrote the companion piece on Buffalo Bore’s Outdoorsman line of ammo. Tim Sundles is still amazed that folks think the 9mm is a good idea for bear. As I recall from Phil, the last shot was in the bear’s backside. He had the luxury of shooting it multiple times as it run across his front. Had he been the one being charged, things may have gone very wrong. But I’m speculating.

Here’s the link in his own words. Phil’s 7th and last shot was in its pelvic region as it ran off.

https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

Realistically, how many shots do you think you are going to get off on a charging bear? Five? Six? Probably one, maybe two. I’m not saying everyone should carry a .500 something or another, I’m saying horsepower is your friend if you can shoot it (that’s oversimplified, but you get the gist).
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Max, you and I don't really disagree on much here. I just take things from the perspective that takes into account what I have researched, such as the writings of Sundles, Larry Mudgett, and the AmmoLand article. Also, from observation from my "unprofessional" shooting experiences with friends, at different ranges, through shooting instruction and classes, and in local competitions.

I won't disagree with a bigger and deeper penetrating bullet is much better, nor will I disagree with the concept that a 9MM is a poor choice, assuming there are other choices available. But in the end, only hits matter, and only hits that deter or stop in time to save a life ultimately matter.

As far as "how many shots at a charging bear?", the answer to that is the same as "how many shots at a charging human?" Either as many as it takes to stop it or as many as I can before it gets to me. No firearm guarantees results. And I absolutely agree with you that, all things being equal, a couple well placed 44 magnum hits clearly trump the same hits from a 9MM.

I'll tell you the point I see made that perplexes me...the insistence on carrying a single action revolver. Some dedicated handgun hunters and competition shooters can make fast and accurate followup shots, but for most folks, that would clearly mean no more than one hurried shot or two at best.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Larry Mudgett and his views. Marksmanship (accuracy) matters first...penetration matters immediately afterwards. If the first couple shots from the hand cannon fail either, and the critter is determined to rip one a new butthole, that is a deadly problem. In the end, I think more folks are better off with a decent .40 of .45 they shoot enough to be competent with.
 
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Many thanks to everyone who has responded. I will take all relevant advice to heart including picking up some cans of bdar spray and practicing how to use it. Seems pretty strightforward.

35W - You are correct in your assumption that I dont reload ammo. I use primarily Underwood because of the lower cost but also carry Buffalo Bore 200 grain hcwc and Garrett's 250 grain 44 special hard cast all of which shoot to the same point of aim at close range. I would love to get into reloading but I dont really know anyone that I can learn from. I am a bit hesitant to
 
I seemed to have lost part of my post. I was having some major problems with the site being down.

As I was saying.....I am a bit hesitant to begin reloading based on watching YouTube videos since I do not know anyone who reloads.

I did learn black powder on my own a few years back with my motivation being PA's flintlock deer season but that seems far easier and less risky than smokeless powder.

Max P - I have read all 3 of your books. I must say they were informative, interesting and motivating. I continue to practice with my 629 44 mag in hopes of handgun hunting in a year or so. There are a ton of deer in my area and bagging 2 or 3 with a rifle has been fairly routine over the past 10 years. I am looking forward to more of a challenge.
 
The Evangelist Cowboy said:
Blackbear? I'd be fine with 9mm, I think your set.
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Hmmm....really? My youngest son (light colored sweat shirt) got this NC bear this year with a .30-30 Winchester head shot. He was also carrying a Ruger Redhawk .44 mag. Both were on the ground at 30 paces. I'm glad he wasn't just armed with a 9mm. :scrutiny:

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Meeks36 said:
Wouldn't hunt bear with my Glock 19. I do carry it when I'm not up to carrying my 44 in the woods. It's not the best. 16 rounds of 9mm will stop them. With the right bullet selection. I do not have the article at hand. But remember reading about killing a charging bear with 9mm in Alaska. I'll try to dig it up.
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Why would anyone carry a 9mm in Alaska?
Just wondering???
 
PA Revolver Guy said:
Hi all,

I am relatively new member to The High Road Forums and while I've lurked in the background reading posts for several months this is my first attempt at actually starting a thread. I am an avid hunter and fisherman in Northeast PA and spend as many days in the outdoors as possible. My inquiry comes from two recent (2017 & 2019) encounters with black bears whilst small game hunting for which I use a 410 bore shotgun or 22lr bolt action rifle. On both occassions, the bears did not run in the opposite direction as many have in the past. After much yelling, making lots of racket and making myself appear larger the bears did not back off and were within 15 yards of me. It wasn't until I fired a shot in the opposite direction of the bear (to make more noise that I was capable of) did the bears eventually scamper away on both occassions. Last year's (2019) was particularly troublesome as I did see what I thought was the same bear about a half hour but thankfully he did not approach for a second time. It made me feel extremely uneasy. We have some large black bears up here in PA some of which get over 500lbs. I estimated this bear to be in the 300lb range though I am no field judging expert.

While both hunting and fishing I have carried a ruger flattop 44 special loaded with 200 grain hard cast wadcutter(chono'd at 1,080fps avg) from underwood ammo for self defense from 2 legged predators. I feel comfortable with this load for that purpose should the need arise. However, my last encounter with the black bear has left me wondering if this round is enough or if I should move up to Underwood's 255 grain hard cast 44 special load which I chronographed at 1,065fps from my 4.625 blackhawk. Then I got wondering if the 255 grain load would even be enough assuming my shot placement is accurate? Please note that I do have a S&W 629-6 44 mag but I am still practicing with 44 mag loads (it's been about 1 year) and don't feel comfortable using it for woods carry with the high power ammo without more practice. A man's got to know his limitations right?

I was hoping to get some practical input on these particular loads in 44 special. I dont want to turn this into a grizzly bear attack discussion or a black bear hunting discussion. I am not in grizzly country and I dont plan on hunting black bears. I was simply wondering that if in the off chance I become the rare statistic would the ammo do it's part if I do mine? Your input is appreciated in advance.
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I think your 44 special is a great choice for a carry gun in PA. There are guys that will hunt bears/pigs/deer with a 357 handgun. Your 255 hard cast 44 special load is going to do more damage than a 357 will at close range.
 
I just got back from the farm (my shooting range) and put 3 boxes of the Underwood 255 grain hardcast thru the 44 special blackhawk and 1 box of 50 buffalo bore 255 grain hardcast. Both grouped exceptionally well at both 10 and 15 yards offhand in quick fire.

I tried the same drill with my Smith 629 using Underwood's 255 grain hardcast 44 mag ammo. My first shot was nearly as accurate but follow up accuracy suffered a bit. Clearly, I need more time to practice and to learn how to reload!!

CraigC - it is nice to have your your input knowing that you've hunted many large animals with a handgun in the past. I could be wrong but I suspect it was you who made the 44 mag contribution in MaxP's excellent book Hunting Revolvers.

WisBorn - I appreciate your vote of confidence.
 
PA Revolver Guy said:
CraigC - it is nice to have your your input knowing that you've hunted many large animals with a handgun in the past. I could be wrong but I suspect it was you who made the 44 mag contribution in MaxP's excellent book Hunting Revolvers.
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It was. For reasons unknown to me, there is weird stuff going on behind the scenes and it has manifested itself here. I'm going to ignore it because some folks don't know what they think they know. Bottom line is that the .44Spl with proper loads will deal with anything in the lower 48 short of the great bears of the north. Seriously, we're talking about Pennsylvania here, not Alaska. When all you've ever used or been interested in are hand cannons, you get the idea that they are necessary for every application. They are not. You can certainly drive nails with a 10lb sledge but I'll pick the right tool for the job, rather than carry a 10lb sledge everywhere I go. Even in that context, the 250gr Keith bullet will penetrate the same depth as the Brenneke Black Magic 12ga slug.
 
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My personal perspective on the matter....A heavy .44 special loaded hot in a Ruger will get the job done under ideal circumstances without much drama. I wouldn't feel under-gunned if I was HUNTING black bear using hot .44 Special/.45 Colts or my handloaded .44 Mag. rounds in any of my Black or Red Hawks. There are two types of black bear. Those that are being hunted and don't know it until it's too late and all the rest. That includes those who are surprised by a grouse hunter or dog at close quarters, are with offspring or have been hit by a poorly placed shot and are now looking to make their last stand or get even. I would feel under-gunned in any of those situations with the aforementioned calibers/platforms. A black bear that has adrenaline going is HARD to put down in situations like that because you're already at a disadvantage as you're surprised, the bear is moving, the bear and you are pumped with adrenaline, you're more than likely standing on a less than ideal surface with the bear at close to eye level etc. For me, nothing short of a lever 45-70 would make that under-gunned feeling in those particular situations go away. I dropped a black bear just north of Kenora, Canada in the last century that pushed 400 (+/- 10) pounds. He was oblivious anything was amiss until the first of 5 170 gr rounds of 30-30 hit him. Thankfully, the first round dropped his front legs and the follow up shots weren't on a moving animal in moderately thick cover (although he was trying hard to get back up). I carry a .44 mag in Wyoming grizzly country when I'm fly-fishing. It's more as a last resort. I carry pepper spray. I make noise on the trail and I keep a clean camp as my first line of defense. Practice with your hot loads in that .44 special. They're up to the task, you're the weak link (as are most of us in an unexpected bear encounter).
 
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Cocked & Locked said:
Hmmm....really? My youngest son (light colored sweat shirt) got this NC bear this year with a .30-30 Winchester head shot. He was also carrying a Ruger Redhawk .44 mag. Both were on the ground at 30 paces. I'm glad he wasn't just armed with a 9mm. :scrutiny:

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That's cool I guess. I'd still be fine with a 9mm
 
I am not getting involved in any urinating contest, but I will say this about black bears. One of the spots I regularly hunt them in North Carolina produces bears over 400 pounds pretty regularly. This is one (I've posted this somewhere here before) that a friend of mine killed in that region a couple of years ago, that actually charged him (he sorted it). The weight was taken the morning after as it was too late in the day to recover it, so the weight reflects significant loss due to dehydration. Not all black bear are created equally. In cases such as these, horsepower is your friend. Oh, and for the record, Pennsylvania has produced the second largest bear in the US (black bear). PA produces plenty of big black bears.

One more thing. If the bear doesn’t end you, the dog owners might for putting their hounds in harms way...

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