.444 or .45-70?

[bja5006]

i'm in need of a good medium-to-large game gun, and i decided against the traditional .30 cals as i have a 7.62x54r already.

am i splitting hairs?

 

[R.W.Dale]

ammunition avalibility and variety for 444 has been getting really thin and is well on the way to becoming 0, if you're not a handloader the 444 really isn't for you.

The 45/70 on the other hand suffers from none of these problems

 

[Floppy_D]

Both are sweet cartridges. Both do well in the hands of reloaders. Krochus is right about availablity, but as a reloader, I wouldn't sweat that. You can get a little more out of the 45-70, but it wouldn't really be that much of a difference.

 

[highlander 5]

I had this discussion once with a fellow at the range,he was going on about the 444 Marlin 265 gr bullet velocity etc.
I had at the time a Browning 1886 to which I told him bullet weight 300-450 gr gr velocity up to 1800 fps and the big plus I got 11 rds you got 4. Go for the 45/70 if you reload in a lever you can go up to 400+ gr bullets with energy levels near 375 H+H single shot up to 520 gr and near 458 Win mag performance.
Plus factor is almost every Mom+Pop gun shop will have 45/70 ammo

 

[JNewell]

We did this to death here a week or two ago - check that thread. Both great, .444 harder to find in shops and smaller bullet selection if you exclude jacketed handgun bullets that don't perform well at rifle velocities.

 

[FloriDave]

I have a 444 and love it. Are you splitting hairs? Probably, they are both very powerful and excellent cartridges.
I do reload so local shop availability is not an issue. I'd buy whichever rifle was the better deal if you're looking at used.

 

[JesseL]

What does the .444 do that the .45-70 doesn't do better?

 

[rcmodel]

Shoots .44 cal pistol bullets!

Other then that, nothing.

rcmodel

 

[Kruff]

Like RCModel said, the 444 uses 44 cal pistol bullets.
Pistol bullets are not meant for the higher velocity that the 444 pushes them and can sometimes break up before penetrating.

Considering the real bullet diameter of 44 caliber pistol bullets the 444 should really be named the 429 Marlin.

I would go with the 45/70, tons more bullet selections and better availability. Both are not inexpensive though.

 

[SimpleIsGood229]

.45-70 Government for all the reasons stated above.

 

[HM2PAC]

Kruff wrote:

Like RCModel said, the 444 uses 44 cal pistol bullets.
Pistol bullets are not meant for the higher velocity that the 444 pushes them and can sometimes break up before penetrating.

Hornady designed the 265 gr offering exclusively for the 444. It is classified as a pistol bullet, but it is very well built as all Hornady products are. I have loaded them to @ 2200FPS and put them through 1/2" steel plating. In fact, I have never heard of 444's breaking up before penetrating sufficiently.

.45-70 is the way to go if you are not a handloader. If you want to take advantage of the really hot loads for the 45-70, you will need a Ruger #1.
The big nasty zombie thumping loads are not intended for the other rifles.

Considering the real bullet diameter of 44 caliber pistol bullets the 444 should really be named the 429 Marlin

Actual diameter of the projectile has nothing to do with naming conventions.

 

[HM2PAC]

On second thought, if you own either of these calibers, you should learn to handload.

Factory rounds are OK, but you can squeeze so much more out of them with a little TLC.

 

[Kruff]

"Actual diameter of the projectile has nothing to do with naming conventions."

I guess you didn't notice the smiley icon. I am quite aware that cartridge names don't always mean a lot when it comes to bullet diameter.

 

[HM2PAC]

No blood, no foul.

BTW, Welcome to The High Road.

 

[Kruff]

Thanks HM2PAC. It's good to be here.

 

[FloriDave]

The 45/70 is pretty well represented everywhere, but there are a lot of old wives tails about the 444, concerning bullets, etc. many of which just aren't true, at least not with today's bullets.

Appropriately loaded, either cartidge will handle any game out there. I happen to like the 444, just because my dad bought one when I was a kid, and I shot my first deer with it. It's just something a little different than the standard. Still have that gun and still shoot it quite a bit. In fact, I'm doing some customizing on it right now.

I know I'd be just as happy were I to have started with the 45/70 though.

These links will give you a lot of 444 information...

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,25049.0.html

Especially this series...
444 Marlin® - America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Part I:
444 Marlin® - America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Part II:
444 Marlin® - America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Part III:

The 444 Marlin® By: Glen E. Fryxell:
444 Marlin® - The Forgotten Big Bore:


www.gunbanobama.com
Join the NRA

 

[akodo]

Like RCModel said, the 444 uses 44 cal pistol bullets.
Pistol bullets are not meant for the higher velocity that the 444 pushes them and can sometimes break up before penetrating.

Hornady designed the 265 gr offering exclusively for the 444. It is classified as a pistol bullet, but it is very well built as all Hornady products are. I have loaded them to @ 2200FPS and put them through 1/2" steel plating. In fact, I have never heard of 444's breaking up before penetrating sufficiently.

both statements are true.


The 444 was developed to take advantage of the good selection of bullets being designed for the 44 magnum. Basically it was to a magnum 44 magnum, rifle only.

Besides which, it was the only big bore lever action chambering left. Your other two options were the 30-30 and the 35 remington

Of course, these guys learned the hard way that you push a handgun bullet enough faster, it doesn't necessarily perform exactly as you thought it would.

Now, of course, 444 marlin factory loads are using bullets designed for it, which also work perfectly well out of a 44 magnum if you would want a deep penetrator.

I'd vote for the 45/70 as well, but I'd throw another stick on the fire and ask about considering the 450 marlin, which is a true 458 caliber, and loaded to match 'type 2' 45/70 loadings.

FYI, there are 3 basic 45/70 loading
Most factory ammo is type I, loaded at low pressures in case some guy is buying factory ammo to use in his vintage levergun bought in 1899 or whenever.

Type II is a lot hotter, safe in modern lever actions only

Type III is basically the twin of the 458 remington magnum, and while I suppose you could get a custom bolt gun built in that caliber, for the most part it is used buy guys who have Ruger #1 single shot rifles, as those things could fire ammo meant for the M1 Abrams without letting you down.

 

[Gewehr98]

Get the .45-70.

And the Sharps to go with it.

(Don't see many of those in .444 Marlin, do ya?)

 

[5 Screw Smith]

Go for the 45/70 if you reload in a lever you can go up to 400+ gr bullets with energy levels near 375 H+H single shot up to 520 gr and near 458 Win mag performance. Plus factor is almost every Mom+Pop gun shop will have 45/70 ammo

I have gotten 45/70 loads with a 300 grain bullet to leave the muzzle of a Ruger #1 at about 2400 FPS and believe me, it was very uncomfortable. I do not recommend it. You can certainly forget about a follow up shot!

 

[Gewehr98]

They kill on both ends.

One of my favorite loads for my .45-70 Ruger #1S and Siamese Mauser rifles is a 405gr Beartooth hard cast, gas-checked bullet on top of a stout load of Reloder #7. (I'll not list it here, go dig it up at Alliant's website) The chronograph 10 feet in front of the Ruger's muzzle reports an honest 2150fps from that load.

I can handle all of about 10 of those rounds before I have to go home and take it easy on what's left of my shoulder.

 

[alemonkey]

45-70 is my all time favorite caliber. In a good quality gun it's sub-MOA capable and can be loaded from anything pussycat light recoil plinking rounds to shoulder punishers capable of taking any animal short of a T-Rex.

 

[moooose102]

45/70 all the way! forget the 444, unless you just have to have the curved stock of the marlin 444. there are so many reasons the 45/70 is better that the 444 it is just rediculous. i am really not sure why they even still make guns chambered for the 444.

 

[JWarren]

For me, its no question. As of two years ago, we can use Sharps 45-70's in primative weapons season hunting season. That gives me 3 weeks more hunting.

While I don't really care for rimmed cartridges, I'd go that route.

That said, I STILL am planning on building another LR-308 chambered in .450 Marlin, but I think it still uses the same bullet as the 45-70.


-- John

 

[JAMES77257]

Accept no substitutes.

 

[HM2PAC]

it is just rediculous

Yep, just ridiculous.