.45 acp revolver vs 9 mm pros and cons

[cfullgraf]

One thing to look out for is damage in counter-recoil -- I was shooting .45 Super in an M1911 with a heavier spring, and suddenly my recoil spring plug and recoil spring disappeared down range -- the counter recoil force broke the legs off the barrel bushing.

I've had the barrel bushing fail with standard loads as well. I'm sure with hotter rounds the risk would be greater for breaking the barrel bushing.

 

[v8stang289]

I'm a fan of 45acp revolvers. You can go from super light target loads to near 45 super loads without changing anything. My 625 is one of my favorite guns. 9mm would probably be pretty cool too, But 45 is 45... My opinion at least.

 

[cfullgraf]

9mm and 45 ACP moonclips usually come in one size where I know for the S&W 627 TK custom offers five different sizes/thickness for the 627/327.

Yes, I have three 38 Special J-frames modified to use moon clips. TK Custom offers one thickness moon clip for R-P and Starline cases and another thickness for W-W and other cases.

I have a couple 9x19 revolvers just to have something that can use 9x19 should other ammunition becomes unavailable. Besides, my L-frame 986 is fun to shoot and reload quickly.

Some S&W 45 ACP revolvers such as the Model 1917 and the Model 25-2 have some historical significance.

The single action revolvers with semi-auto ammunition cylinders really do not interest me. But they obviously ring the bell of some folks.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Went scurrying off to the chrono data, a 4" 625 did 735'sec, a 5" Government was good for 770'sec, all with a 230 FMJ 'softball' load.
Personal interest in autocartridge revos began with a 1917, and has wandered off from there to 625s (and a long lost 25 Target, dammit), and more recently to 9mms.
It's more a grits and shins kind of thing than any entirely practical purpose...but how many of our guns serve a really practical purpose?
The only other thing that sees lots of big bore reloads are .45 Colt, and the ACP is arguably easier to load
The 325 gets its own loads in autorim brass, with a firmer crimp and lighter load.
Moon

 

[Rock185]

I've can't say they are better or more practical than other revolvers, but I've owned this or that revolver chambered in traditionally semi-auto pistol cartridges for many years. I've shot S&W 625 and 25-2 .45 ACP revolvers, but the only .45 ACP revolver I actually own is a Freedom Arms .454/.45 ACP. I won't count my old Webley revolver cut for .45 ACP because it only sees light reloads. I don't recall if I chronographed any ammo using the S&W revolvers, but have chronographed .45 ACP in my 4 3/4" FA revolver. The FA revolver usually produces velocity a few FPS higher than the same ammo in my .45 ACP semi-auto pistols with 5" barrels. I attribute this to the FA's tighter chambers, and .002" B/C gap. I suspect some .45 ACP revolvers could use ammo loaded loaded hotter than might be safe in traditional 1911 pistols. I say this because revolvers have fully supported chambers, whereas most semi-auto pistols must have a chamber throat exposing some unsupported brass to ensure reliable function.

FWIW, We did chronograph some .45 ACP in a 16" carbine. We found that .45 ACP in the 16" barrel gained little or no velocity over pistol length barrels. In fact, some ammo was slower in the 16" carbine than in the 5" pistols.

As regards the 9MM revolvers, within my experience it is not unusual for 9MM revolvers to generate velocities higher than the same ammo in semi-auto pistols with barrels of similar length. Just a for instance, the popular Federal 9MM +P 124 HST chronographed in a 2" S&W revolver produced 1195 FPS, a 3 1/2" S&W semi-auto produced 1166 FPS. In a 3" revolver, the same 124 HST produced 1291 FPS, in a 5" semi-auto pistol the HST produced 1236 FPS. I've seen similar results with 10MM S&W revolvers vs. S&W 10 MM semi-auto pistols. Still have some of those revolvers chambered in semi-auto pistol cartridges....

 

[TTv2]

If you get a .45 double action that uses moon clips, you could shoot .45 GAP. If you got a strong Ruger .45 you could shoot .45 Super. 9mm revolvers are stuck only shooting 9mm.

There will be velocity loss compared to an auto loader, probably more than you'd expect. With my Redhawk and its 4 inch barrel, Winchester White Box was getting around 760 up to 780 FPS and accuracy was poor. Now, that's also a .45 Colt chamber, so there is a jump and enough of one that gasses blow by before the bullet reaches the throat, so there's pressure loss before the bullet even passes the gap into the cone. I've loaded my .45 ACP handloads up into +P range and get about 860 fps with 5.5 gr of Bullseye with a 225gr bullet and a roll crimp and accuracy is good.

BTW, that's another benefit of the moon clip .45 revolvers in that you're headspacing off the clip, not the case mouth so a roll crimp can be used and I do recommend roll crimps be used.

I don't know of any 9mm bullets that have a crimp groove. The .45 ACP can use the same bullets that .45 Colt does depending on the weight.

Finally, I would recommend sticking with a revolver that uses moon clips, basically don't get the Charter Arms Pitbull as you'll lose the ability to use roll crimped ammo. Same thing with the single actions, but I doubt you're seriously considering a single action in a rimless caliber.

So, I say .45, there are good reasons too go with it, but sadly the market seems more interested with 9mm revolvers.

ETA: Also, with the .45 revolvers, unless you're shooting a +P ammo that you can verify gets 800 fps out of the revolver (that seems to be the minimum for expansion) there's very little chance a hollow point will expand. This is yet another instance where I would recommend the Inceptor or Lehigh ammunition or whatever uses a bullet with the flutes cut in the nose.

 

[v8stang289]

ETA: Also, with the .45 revolvers, unless you're shooting a +P ammo that you can verify gets 800 fps out of the revolver (that seems to be the minimum for expansion) there's very little chance a hollow point will expand. This is yet another instance where I would recommend the Inceptor or Lehigh ammunition or whatever uses a bullet with the flutes cut in the nose.

WW box can be a bit anemic in my experience.
My gun is a 4" S&W 625, but both 230gn golden sabers and 230gn gold dots average around 900fps over the chrono.
A +p load of power pistol launches a 230xtp at over 1000fps, with a 215WFN near 1100fps. Those 2 are getting into low end 45super territory, and I do use super brass for them.
You do lose a little velocity to barrel gap, but in my experience with my guns its ~30-50fps over a comparable length auto.

ETA:
Went back and checked my notes, looks like in the case of 230gn Golden Sabers:
They averaged 855 out of a 5" 1911, and 898 out of a 4" 625

 

[nofendertom]

cfullgraf---the bushing that broke on your 1911---was it the solid bushing or the finger bushing ?

 

[StrawHat]

A 45 Auto semi-auto can shoot 45 Super and 450 SMC with minor modifications. (recoil spring)

A S&W Model 625 or Model 22-4 can shoot the 45 Super with no modifications. Not familiar with the 450 SMC round.

Kevin

 

[fxvr5]

Not familiar with the 450 SMC round.

Folks interested in learning more about the 450 SMC can google it. Assuming they know how to use google.

 

[cfullgraf]

cfullgraf---the bushing that broke on your 1911---was it the solid bushing or the finger bushing ?

It was a finger bushing and the second one in the gun. A finger broke off the first finger bushing a few years prior.

I replaced #2 with a solid bushing.

 

[TTv2]

WW box can be a bit anemic in my experience.
My gun is a 4" S&W 625, but both 230gn golden sabers and 230gn gold dots average around 900fps over the chrono.
A +p load of power pistol launches a 230xtp at over 1000fps, with a 215WFN near 1100fps. Those 2 are getting into low end 45super territory, and I do use super brass for them.
You do lose a little velocity to barrel gap, but in my experience with my guns its ~30-50fps over a comparable length auto.

The key word here is YOUR guns, you can't tell what others guns are going to do with what ammo.

 

[jski]

You could go with the humble Charter Arms
.45 ACP Pitbull:

Hickok45 loves his.

 

[jmorris]

I haven’t ever tried to hotrod my 45 ACP revolvers because I already owned more powerful revolvers before I started getting them. I really only found one thing that the 45 ACP revolvers can do that my other 45’s cannot and that’s winning in revolver only classes.



Other than that, a 4” barreled one has a larger footprint than a 5” 45.



Weighs more.





And holds less than half what that double stack 45 does. So even mere mortals can beat Jerry to 12 shots and still have a couple left over.

They are fun though and the moon clips make it easy to pick up and reuse your brass.

I had built my own moon/demoon tools but long ago switched over to using GAP brass in the ones I have because no tools are required to moon/demoon.

 

[halfmoonclip]

jmorris, really slick mooning tool; how are the supers different, or is it their moonclips?
Not really happy with my current 986 demooning tool; any suggestions, from you or others?
Thanks,
Moon

 

[jmorris]

The GAP brass has slightly deeper extractor groves so they don’t require any tools.

 

[TTv2]

You could go with the humble Charter Arms
.45 ACP Pitbull:
View attachment 974975
Hickok45 loves his.

That's the one double action .45 revolver I'd avoid. Doesn't use moon clips, headspaces off the mouth so you can't roll crimp your ammo, slower to reload, and ejection is more fragile.

At the cost those CA Pitbulls go for, I wouldn't bother with them. The major selling point to them is moon clips aren't required and if you had a S&W .45 ACP revolver, those don't require the use of the clips either and Paul Harrel has demonstrated that it's possible to extract rimless cases in the 9mm LCR without the moon clips by smacking the butt against the palm of his hand.

In a revolver, for .45, I prefer to use a moon clip, for the 9mm I don't care, it doesn't seem to matter with that slight tapered case.

 

[cfullgraf]

jmorris, really slick mooning tool; how are the supers different, or is it their moonclips?
Not really happy with my current 986 demooning tool; any suggestions, from you or others?
Thanks,
Moon

Take a look at BMT Equipped moon clip tools. A bit pricey for some but lots better than the “one hole at a time” moon clip tools.

 

[LightninST]

jmorris, really slick mooning tool; how are the supers different, or is it their moonclips?
Not really happy with my current 986 demooning tool; any suggestions, from you or others?
Thanks,
Moon

http://www.bmtequipped.com/purchase.php. BMT not cheap but will save time and easy on your hands.

 

[LightninST]

Like JMorris said “They are fun though and the moon clips make it easy to pick up and reuse your brass.”

 

[Vlad3572]

I have a Ruger Blackhawk 45 convertable. I use the 45 Colt cylinder for deer hunting but shoot the 45 ACP most of the time. The 45 ACP is as accurate as I can shoot it and a lot of fun. I shoot lead reloads, steel, whatever, it eats them all.

There are 45 ACP recipes for stardard and Ruger only loads, and in the Blackhawk none of the 45 ACP stuff kicks much. Its my go to for varmints and rabbits and such.

 

[ms6852]

I would think the revolver would handle hotter loads. I plan on buying as soon as the market settles down, hopefully soon. I want one to carry maybe even concealed.

I do not think you could shoot a 45 acp revolver with hotter loads that a 1911 could not handle because of case set back locking the cylinder. Smith and Wesson Model 53 revolver was dropped because of this when they introduced it for the 22 Remington Jet which was a necked down .357. Though the 45 acp is not a bottle neck I believe the same physics apply in using hotter loads.

 

[v8stang289]

I do not think you could shoot a 45 acp revolver with hotter loads that a 1911 could not handle because of case set back locking the cylinder. Smith and Wesson Model 53 revolver was dropped because of this when they introduced it for the 22 Remington Jet which was a necked down .357. Though the 45 acp is not a bottle neck I believe the same physics apply in using hotter loads.

It doesn't, the issue was because of the higher pressure in a bottlenecked cartridge, not the higher pressure itself. Straightwalled cartridges dont have the same problem. If it were an issue revolvers chambered in 44mag, 357mag, etc would have issues as they're all much higher pressure than 45acp. Even hot loaded 45acp and 45super pressures are much lower than magnum revolver cartridges.

 

[ms6852]

I understand and agree with what you say, but for me the question remains the same. I understand that .44 and .357 magnum and other calibers have higher pressures than the 45 but the firearms are built specifically to handle those loads with some of them being proofed up to 30% higher. Just kinda thinking out loud and throwing it out there.

 

[mcb]

I never saw much reason to hot rod 9/40/45ACP revolvers much. These common self-defense cartridges simply don't have the case volume to get that much more performance even if you crank the pressure. Compare 45 ACP loaded to the same pressure as 45 Colt, and due to Colt's increased case volume if you select the correct slower burning (and typically bulkier) powder the 45 Colt will way out perform 45 ACP despite both being loaded to the same arbitrary max pressure. Max pressure is one thing but without sufficient case volume to use it the higher and higher pressure quickly results in rapidly diminishing returns.