.45 acp revolver vs 9 mm pros and cons

[jmorris]

I understand that .44 and .357 magnum and other calibers have higher pressures than the 45 but the firearms are built specifically to handle those loads with some of them being proofed up to 30% higher.

That was kind of my point in #17 the 625 (45 ACP) is on the same frame as the 629 (44 mag), the N frame and it’s larger and stronger than the L frame of the 686 (357 mag).

 

[v8stang289]

I understand and agree with what you say, but for me the question remains the same. I understand that .44 and .357 magnum and other calibers have higher pressures than the 45 but the firearms are built specifically to handle those loads with some of them being proofed up to 30% higher. Just kinda thinking out loud and throwing it out there.

Understood, I see where you're coming from, But i do routinely shoot 45 super in a 625 with no issue, as do many others. All revolver cartridges slam into the recoil shield when firing, and the brass expands against the cylinder walls. In straightwalled cases, when the brass slightly retracts the case can move forward if necessary. In a bottlenecked case, the brass expansion in the shoulder area can possibly hold the cartridge against the shield. Which is what causes issues.
Cylinders being designed/proofed to hold the pressure doesn't effect the physics of this.

 

[mcb]

That was kind of my point in #17 the 625 (45 ACP) is on the same frame as the 629 (44 mag), the N frame and it’s larger and stronger than the L frame of the 686 (357 mag).

You can't look at pressure alone you have to take the geometry into account too. If you go from 44 Magnum to 45 ACP your chamber diameter goes from .464 to .484 so for the same pressure and the same assumed wall thickness your hoop stress would go up ~5% due to the increased chamber diameter. But we are constrained by the N-frame cylinder diameter so your wall thickness (at it thinnest point between chamber to chamber and/or chamber and OD) goes down, from ~.080 in the 44 mag to only .060 in the 45 ACP. So you have 20% less material at the weak point in the cylinder but increased hoop stress due to the larger chamber diameter. Combine those two factors together and a quick back of the envelope calculation show a roughly 40% increase in hoop stress in the cylinder wall at it thinnest area when comparing the same pressure in a 44 mag 629 cylinder vs a 45 ACP 625 cylinder.

 

[jmorris]

The first two grabbed 629/625 were .460/.477 but the cylinders are also different diameters 1.713/1.708, in the wrong direction for strength.

And while they might not blow up in your hand there is a reason they stopped at 44mag for the 113 year old N frame.

 

[mcb]

The first two grabbed 629/625 were .460/.477 but the cylinders are also different diameters 1.713/1.708, in the wrong direction for strength.

I just ran with MAX dimensions from the SAAMI spec and was assuming a 1.71 cylinder diameter.

 

[fxvr5]

I never saw much reason to hot rod 9/40/45ACP revolvers much. These common self-defense cartridges simply don't have the case volume to get that much more performance even if you crank the pressure. Max pressure is one thing but without sufficient case volume to use it the higher and higher pressure quickly results in rapidly diminishing returns.

I wouldn't go quite that far, because if you crank the pressure up, the 9mm- and 45 Auto-length cartridges can produce very impressive ballistics. For example, cranking up the 9mm pressure you'll get 9 Major and 356 TSW performance. In this case 115 grain bullets at 1600 fps and 124 grain bullets at 1450 fps.

In the case of the 45 Auto you get 45 Super/450 SMC/460 Rowland ballistics.

 

[mcb]

I wouldn't go quite that far, because if you crank the pressure up, the 9mm- and 45 Auto-length cartridges can produce very impressive ballistics. For example, cranking up the 9mm pressure you'll get 9 Major and 356 TSW performance. In this case 115 grain bullets at 1600 fps and 124 grain bullets at 1450 fps.

In the case of the 45 Auto you get 45 Super/450 SMC/460 Rowland ballistics.

Sure, up the pressure your going to increase performance but with insufficient case volume your increases in pressure starts having diminishing effect on velocity compared to the same pressure increase in a case of greater volume. So 9mm Major is run pressures approaching 45,000 psi to get a 124 gr bullet going 1450 fps, A 357 Magnum can achieve that from a similar barrel length and do it without break 35,000 psi due to its greater case volume allowing for larger quantities of slower burning powder.

Similar if you load 45 Colt to the same pressures you load all the high pressure 45 ACP derivatives to you can get greater performance from the 45 Colt again due to its greater case volume.

So if I am looking for a revolver cartridge that has more power/velocity I am going to look to good and proper revolver cartridge that utilizes the full length of the cylinder to give me as much case volume as you can get. If I want a revolver that reloads fast you want a revolver chambered in a short fat rimless cartridge like 9/40/45 on thick robust moonclips and accept that it will never perform ballistically to the same level as larger volume cases of similar caliber.

 

[nofendertom]

cfullgraf---Bill Wilson says in his book "The Combat .45 Automatic" that the finger bushings
break mostly because the front of the slide is not machined square.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

I can see the advantage of a 9mm revolver - dirt cheap ammo and a surprisingly stout load that sits about halfway between a 130gr 38 Special and a 125gr 357 Magnum.

With 45 ACP, I'm not really seeing the advantage of the auto round over a 45 LC. Their normal FMJ blaster rounds are pretty much identical ballistically, and of course 45 LC can be loaded to whatever you want it to be. And while there's a bit of cost savings for ACP vs LC (low $20s per box vs high $20s per box pre-COVID?), it's not like the half-off discount between 9mm and 38.

Maybe if you reload and are sitting on a dragon-hoard of ACPs, buying an ACP revolver to match makes sense, otherwise I'd just get the LC.

You could go with the humble Charter Arms
.45 ACP Pitbull:
View attachment 974975
Hickok45 loves his.

Now this is cool. A 45 ACP revolver sized for ACP is a different ball game vs the LC.

 

[Buckeye63]

Easy to carry ..Charter Pitbull 45acp

 

[TTv2]

I never saw much reason to hot rod 9/40/45ACP revolvers much. These common self-defense cartridges simply don't have the case volume to get that much more performance even if you crank the pressure. Compare 45 ACP loaded to the same pressure as 45 Colt, and due to Colt's increased case volume if you select the correct slower burning (and typically bulkier) powder the 45 Colt will way out perform 45 ACP despite both being loaded to the same arbitrary max pressure. Max pressure is one thing but without sufficient case volume to use it the higher and higher pressure quickly results in rapidly diminishing returns.

You can load the .45 ACP up pretty good. I load mine into .45 Super levels for my Redhawk and there is significant velocity boost. For 9mm and .40... I doubt there is much gain out of a revolver. There's not even that much of an increase when using +P ammo in a semi auto with 9 or 40.

 

[mcb]

You can load the .45 ACP up pretty good. I load mine into .45 Super levels for my Redhawk and there is significant velocity boost. For 9mm and .40... I doubt there is much gain out of a revolver. There's not even that much of an increase when using +P ammo in a semi auto with 9 or 40.

Not exactly and apples to apples comparison. Loading 45 ACP to 45 Super pressure (21ksi to 28 ksi) would be equivalent to loading 9mm or 40S&W to nearly 47,000 psi. There is a 33% increase in pressure from 45 ACP to 45 Super. 9mm +P is only a 10% increase in pressure. People are loading 9mm to these pressures to get nearly 357 Magnum performance most often this hot 9mm is referred to as 9mm Major since the majority of the people doing it are doing to make Major Power Factor in the USPSA competition Open guns.

But again my point is not that there is or is not a gain when increasing pressure (there is of course) it's that the gains are small due to the small case volume of 45/40/9 compared to more traditional revolver cartridge's. Whatever you can achieve with 45 ACP/Super it can be replicated at a lower peak pressure in 45 Colt. For the same peak pressure 45 Colt will out perform 45 ACP/Super.

You don't use a 45/40/9 revolver for maximizing power. You use these revolver for faster reloading on moonclips, or because you are already heavily invested in a rimless cartridge, etc. If you after a powerful revolver cartridge a 45/40/9 rimless revolver is not it.

 

[cfullgraf]

In my 45 ACP revolvers and 9x19 revolvers, I shoot the same ammunition that I shoot in my semi-auto pistols. It gives me another platform to use the ammunition in. I'd use these revolvers for the same purpose as the semi-autos.

Besides, moon clips rock.

If I want more oomph from a 45 caliber revolver or a 9mm/38 caliber revolver, I'll move to a revolver chambered in a revolver cartridge that can be loaded to higher performance levels. If I want wrist snapping recoil, I drag out the 460 XVR.

Cost of ammunition is not really an issue for me. My 45 ACP reloads are a tad bit more expensive than the 9x19 reloads only because there is more lead in the 45 caliber bullets. Powder and primer costs are similar. The cost difference is insignificant.