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.45 Acp

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Nolo, Dec 22, 2007.

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  1. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    I don't mean to start a 9mm vs. .45 war, but how effective is .45 ACP in submachine guns? I know there are probably very few of you who know this, but I don't really know any other place that will tell me how effective .45 is when shot in multiples, nor whether it is significantly more powerful than, say, 9mm or significantly less powerful than, say, .30 Carbine.
     
  2. AirplaneDoc

    AirplaneDoc Member

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    I don't want to get hit with even 1.

    It is deffinately more effective on your wallet.

    I would guess 45acp is significantly more powerful than both 9mm and 30 carb
    a balistics table would tell you for sure but I would estimate a 45acp to carry +100ft/lbs at 100yards over a 30 carb.
     
  3. cobrian45

    cobrian45 Member

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    This is a killer question. Ha. Normally, I would say that .45 is preferred hands down if it were a pistol question. But, this isn't a pistol question. I have shot a lot of handguns, and only two sub guns. Coincidentally, in .45 and 9mm. The .45 had quite a bit of rise and if you knew what you were doing, you could get them all on the target, though not in a tight group. The 9mm on the other hand holds great groups in a sub-gun. This is the only time I think I would say 9mm would be the way to go. You'll be able to put 3-4 round bursts in a small group quite easily. When you're talking about getting multiple rounds into a target in a second, the bullet power becomes less of a factor, I would think. It seemed much easier to keep on target for the successive bursts, which means engaging multiples would be easier. Just FYI, this was Thompson (uncomped) vs MP5. It's an apples and oranges deal, but that's my .02 from my experience.

    If you're asking the question about sheer power, yes the .45 would pack more punch but in a sub I would prefer the handling of the 9mm.
     
  4. HM2PAC

    HM2PAC Member

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    30 Carbine 110gr
    600 fpe @ 100 yds
    1567 fps @100 yds

    45 ACP 230gr
    326 fpe @ 50yds
    800 fps @ 50 yds
     
  5. AirplaneDoc

    AirplaneDoc Member

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    HM2PAC

    What does a 45acp do at 100yds so we have a apples to apples comp
     
  6. LaEscopeta

    LaEscopeta Member

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    I’ve been thinking about this recently, and it seems to me the .45 ACP round really outshines all others when fired with a sound suppressor. Most (all?) other rounds have to be significantly loaded down to be sub-sonic to make a suppressor really effective, and of course this also significantly reduces ballistic performance. Since the .45 ACP is already sub-sonic, it does not need to be downloaded to make a suppressor work, and hits just as hard as from a non-suppressed weapon.
     
  7. wcwhitey

    wcwhitey Member

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    If I read the question right it was more of a question of how much performance will the .45 pick up in a carbine or sub gun. I could be wrong. Depends on barrel length, a 11.5 barrel will let the 45 ACP pick up conservatively 100 FPS, a 16" will be around another 100 FPS. Lets say 1000 FPS+ from a 16" barrel in a Auto Ordinance Thompson of 16" AR Carbine. That changes the ballistic table a good bit. In a Ingram or Grease Gun with short barrels probably not that much of a jump and probably still on the subsonic threshold. Used to be very popular was the 147 Grain Sub Sonic 9mm loads for that reason, If memory serves they traveled around 900 fps. I would think that the 9mm in 115 or 124 grain would gain the most velocity and the most advantage of the longer barrel lengths. So the question is, a 230 grain FMJ at 1000 FPS or a 115 FMJ at 1400, still a tough question. I favor the .45 but an MP5 in 9mm is a sweetheart to shoot. Bill
     
  8. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    I was really asking how much more effective .45 is in multiples.
    I'm assuming hollowpoint bullets.
     
  9. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    I BROKE 1,000 POSTS!!!!!
     
  10. tbtrout

    tbtrout Member

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    St Valentines Day Massacre was with a Thompson. The high rate of fire with the size and power of a .45 is more devestating than an MP5 9mm.
     
  11. Roadkill

    Roadkill Member

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    But they are heavy.
     
  12. Constantine-p89

    Constantine-p89 Member

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    tbtrout, St Valentines Day Massacre: when did you see that lately, that's a old one(great movie though).
     
  13. Roadkill

    Roadkill Member

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    Need to see "The Road to Perdition" Tom Hanks.
     
  14. Samuel_Hoggson

    Samuel_Hoggson Member

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    MP5 ROF is higher than that of the Thompson.......or the M3 grease gun. All three are eminently controllable in FA or burst. .45 hits harder, yeah, but how much 230 gr fmj ammo can you hump? Bigger mags for bigger rounds take up more space, too. I like them all.

    The Thompson is kinda way overbuilt for the cartridge but, arguably, so is the Uzi. I really like grease guns in .45. In 9mm the S&W 76 is a nice, trim open bolt gun. Say what you want about the MP5, it's the smoothest subgun I've ever fired.

    Just a few random thoughts. The debate about cartridge effectiveness is mitigated by the multiple hit premise of a subgun.

    Sam
     
  15. Kurac

    Kurac Member

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    G&A did a carbine showdown in one of their issues many years ago, they compared 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm and .45ACP

    The .45ACP was the only one that actually had a loss of velocity with some brands of ammo out of the carbine/smg length barrel.
     
  16. AndyC

    AndyC Member

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    Loss of velocity is more a factor of the burning-rate of the powder in the cartridges - a longer barrel requires slower powder to maintain the pressure.
     
  17. kBob

    kBob Member

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    Nolo,

    I have not shot enough (any) people with either caliber SMG to render a reliable opinion.

    I have shot a few things with both.

    I like shooting the M1928 series Thompsons a lot, they are a hoot and in my experience a good deal more accurate in both semi and full suto than most give them credit for. With GI hard ball or a close weight shape and velocity reload those old Lyman Ladder sights actually work. Makes lots of holes in things not to strong or thick and kicks up lots of dust down range.

    I also enjoy the old MP-40, mostly for its evil natness I supposse. It makes slightly smaller holes in things not to strong or too deep and kicks up lots of dust down range.

    I admit it the MP 5 has a certain coolness factor as well, though the MP5k is a bit silly and limited in use. I really likes the SD model when set up with a heavy subsonic and a scope with a proper Bullet Drop Compensator for it. I have on a ggod day fired from 25, 35, and 50 meters and kept all shots inside a 50 mm x 50 mm square on semi and very quietly. Right off hand I can not think of a more controllable 9X19mm SMG than the MP5 with either fixed or colapsing stock. On the other hand I never took an MP5 off a range and lived with it for a bit and I have heard too many destressing stories from US troops issued them in the 1980's (Rangers and some ARBN as back ups for 90mm or Dragon gunners) about them not working when needed or just not having the power to do the job when they did. You know how those stories get, especially when talking face to face with witnesses, so I can not verify finicky peration or Girlie-girl performance on fleah and blood targets.

    As much as I hate to admit it if told I had to have a 9 monkey masher SMG I might well ask for an UZI. Controls are easy to reach (if stiff on most guns), good repretation in the field, I actually like the grip safety, and I thing the hand finds hand feature for mag changes not only works but has much to appreciate. I would pefer ( as on an HK) the fixed stock but the folder/pincher/ nasty thin steel bit stock works OK and doesn make things smaller

    I do not like un modified or unsupressed M-10s. M3 and M3A1 guns are not ergonomic and sfety can be an issue. I like the way a Thompsonof any mark feels and shoots and the controls are all where they need to be.....and they asn their ammo weight too much for Mrs, Hollingsworth boy to be toting around all day. Still for around the house/bunker/ AFV the THompson would be my first choice in .45ACP.

    Why babble like this? Because you asked how effective .45 guns are relitice to 9sillymeters. Well the effective gun is the one you will have with you when you need it, will go bang every time you pull the trigger and can hit what needs to be hit with a telling shot.

    Having spoken with folks that did shoot folks with one or the other and some that have been shot with one......for wounding power in FMJ loads Ithink I would give a slight edge to the .45 ACP.

    Because you mentioned it let me say that if for some reason guys passed the half century mark, with a bad knee a blown rotatator cuff and grossly over weight were called upon to tote one of the caliber guns you mentioned into bad places, I would pick the .30 Carbine in an M-1 carbine with all the post WWII upgrades, bayonet and sheath, and nice reliable 15 round magazines over an UZI, MP5, Sten Mark Whatever, Patchett-Sterling. froggie M-49, Swedish "K", or S&W 76 AND over a .45ACP SMG.

    Sounds crazy I know comming from a 1911A1 kind'a guy like me, but a carbine, Machine Karbine, or SMG is not a pistol. If it needs to go to my shoulder and be held in two hands I want more than 9 or 11.25mm performance.

    TO close, the theory that multiple hits from an SMG on full auto are some how better or more destructive than the same number of rounds deliverd insemi auto fire has been fairly well debunked. The shock waves of the first hit from full auto pistol caliber rounds are gone by the time the second hits. Ony when the impacts are for all intents simutanious as in a shot gun blast or multiple shell or mine fragments do you get any multiplicaion in the effects to be seen by flesh torn away from the wound tracks of individual rounds. Most hold that if for instance a single hit of a cartridge has a 65 percent chance of stopping a target that those targets that remain get the same 35 percent cahnce of continuing on the first unshot group did and on for a good many shots (eventually them odds have to catch up but whether the say three wounds were deliverd from and uzi in .15 seconds or in 3 seconds frpm a High Point carbine, the actual effects are the same.

    What makes an SMG more "effective" than a handgun of the same caliber within hand gun ranges is a function of hit probability within a given time limit, to include the probability of multiple hits. At ranges beyound "normal Handgun ranges" the SMG has a supposed advantage of greater practical accuracy than a hand gun. Not that both the conditions can be over come by training. (Sorry if that sounds too "Cooperish", but there it is)

    -Bob Hollingsworth
     
  18. Samuel_Hoggson

    Samuel_Hoggson Member

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    Bob,

    Good read. My point above was simply that subgun effectiveness is not premised solely on a single round hit probability. I was not suggesting that there's any difference between X number hits in FA vs X number hits in SA. Sorry if I was unclear.

    Sam
     
  19. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    The only reason there is such a thing as a .45 calibre SMG is because that was the U.S. military pistol cartridge at the time. SMG's are for very close range fighting. 100 yards isn't close range.
    "...I'm assuming hollowpoint bullets...." Don't. SMG's tend to not feed them well.
     
  20. HM2PAC

    HM2PAC Member

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    Airplane Doc wrote:
    Doc,

    The ballistics chart at Winchester does not go to 100 yds for the .45ACP.
    I would suspect that it's not going to increase though. The .45ACP runs out of steam rather quickly.
     
  21. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    Multiple hits with a .45 acp out of any sub gun will be very effective. I have been lucky enough to have been able to put a couple hundred rounds down range out of a mac and a little over 500 rounds out of a couple of Thompson's. Love the Thompson.
     
  22. iamkris

    iamkris Member

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    Don't place all your eggs in the velocity basket. Lots of old time hunters know that for actual killing of things, nothing beats slow, heavy and wide.
     
  23. plexreticle

    plexreticle Member

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    9mm is vastly easier to control compared to the few .45 sub guns I've fired.
     
  24. jpwilly

    jpwilly Member

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    45 ACP is more deadly and effective than say a 9mm especially in FMJ format. My sidearm is a 45acp but for close range work a carbine my M4gery in .223 shoots the snot of out both 9mm or 45 performance.
     
  25. jpwilly

    jpwilly Member

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    45 ACP is more deadly and effective than say a 9mm especially in FMJ format. My sidearm is a 45acp but for close range work a carbine my M4gery in .223 shoots the snot of out both 9mm or 45 performance.
     
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