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.45 and 1911 losing ground?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by wgp, May 18, 2016.

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  1. Harleytoo

    Harleytoo Member

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    Of course personal preference is a huge part of this question. But I would suspect more new shooters don't/won't opt for a 1911.

    I know for me, I moved over to 9mm as my typical defensive round mainly because I switched over to DA/SA guns and the ones I chose I chose in 9mm (Sig's and Baretta's).

    However, I still prefer my .45's on the range or in the field. While my 9's will hit out to range (25+ yards) I think the .45's energy and mass at range is a benefit. Not that the 9's wont work there, but most of my 9's are sub 6.5 inch.

    I will still carry my "new to me" used P220 at times. I really like the feel of that gun in my had. Unless I need more rounds then its the P229.
     
  2. MutinousDoug

    MutinousDoug Member

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    Mr. Cortez is correct and I stand corrected for the 1st 4 paragraphs of his correction. I apologize for my mistake and would correct my statement to describe the difference in area between the .45 and the .335 as 39% rather than my previous statement of 61%. I had it backwards. Thank you Mr. Cortez.
    None the less, Is the calculation of diameter of a projectile insignificant compared to the area it impacts?
     
  3. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    The Army shifted to 9mm in the 80's, the public is usually 25 years behind. Yes the 1911 and .45 are becoming a much smaller part of the public's perception of what it takes in a carry gun to get the job done.

    How many 1911's are seen in cop shows on TV? How many 1911's were even seen in then holsters of LEO's back in the day? It was revolver time before the double stack 9mm Glock was invented, and it's been Glock city ever since.

    In the early days of any state's new CCW process no doubt the early applicants were serious shooters, who had been around longer than most. Now we are signing up the next gen shooters and the 1911 hasn't been part of their life. For someone over 55, one in ten had served in the military and likely handled a 1911. Now, only one in one hundred have served and the 99 have seen double stack 9mm's as the dominant gun most of their life.

    Of course the 1911 is taking less of the class - it's now about as representative of the publics perception of firearms as seeing a Mosin Nagant in the hands of a soldier. It's retro old school history channel stuff, not a modern military firearm. And the ones they DO see for sale are usually tricked out comp guns with target sights, beavertails, extended ambidextrous safeties, expensive milled grips, fancy target triggers, etc etc. Not a service grade US issue 1911, which is mostly absent from the mix.

    You can get to polymer duty grade compacts for the price of a entry level competition 1911. The market doesn't support having a competitively priced carry 1911. Metal receivers are a premium upgrade over polymer and carry a weight penalty, too.

    We passed the baton decades ago.
     
  4. Hangingrock

    Hangingrock Member

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    Tirod:
    I concur with that statement, of course there are those among us that can afford the custom built from Wilson and etcetera.
     
  5. Harleytoo

    Harleytoo Member

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    Tirod pegged it I think. Many of us here are either purist or enthuiast. So we often gravitate to weapons that we either cut our teeth on or that we can alter to our "vision" of what we want.

    The general public isn't going to spend a hand plus on what we consider a quality gun. Considering even the Sig's I prefer they are priced outside what many will be willing to pay for a carry gun (that is until they shoot one).

    The age old "what's best" caliber has been diminished due to the narrowing of the gap in quality. So many are opting for higher capacity over heavier rounds. I much prefer carrying a double stack (I am a big guy so not an issue) and now only have a few single stacks for deep carry.

    Of course everything is cyclical. It may come back around.
     
  6. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Nope. Still have and carry .45's. It's the only caliber I carry besides .38 Spl. , and that's because no one makes a J-Frame .45ACP....:D C'mon S&W....a four-shot J Frame, or how about you, Ruger, 4shot LCR....:evil:

    I do like the Glock 19, though.
     
  7. hdbiker

    hdbiker Member

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    The plastic guns are half the price of a good 1911, and ammo is much cheaper. hdbiker
     
  8. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    Personally I don't think the 1911 and the .45 ACP are losing ground. High capacity 9mm. pistols have been around for quite some time and with a great selection to choose from and still the 1911 continues on. The design itself is one reason why it has remained viable over a hundred years since it's introduction and probably why it will keep being an icon for many more years to come.
     
  9. JohnnyFlake

    JohnnyFlake Member

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    Just a heads-up, in case you are unaware if it. Charter Arms, famous for it's Bull Dog 5 shot 44 spl. from many, many years ago, has introduced a model called the Pitbull in .45acp. It's a five shot revolver with 2 1/2" barrel, built like a tank. I purchased one, 3 or 4 months ago and it's the bees knees! Small, powerful and fun to shoot.
     
  10. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Yet there are more manufactures making 1911's right now than ever before.

    I would say the market has spoken or they wouldn't exist on the shelves next to the plastic..
     
  11. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    OP, I think there's a skew in your bias. Your sample is drawn from CCH classes, which are surely not representative of the gun buying/shooting public generally; nor will the gun that people bring to a CC class fairly represent what they are likely to have in their safe at home and take to the range for fun shooting (which is 99% of the shooting that virtually everyone who isn't serving in the infantry does).
     
  12. Warp

    Warp Member

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    aka self defense?

    Couldn't help it. Can you explain what classes you are referring to and how they are geared towards a certain type of pistol? Other than that type of pistol being the most popular and common, that is
     
  13. wgp

    wgp Member

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    Appreciate the comments. The classes I am referring to are focused on civilians carrying concealed for self-defense. The instructor has never gotten into suggesting particular guns, or caliber, or ammo capacity. The students are generally active shooters of many ages. And what I clearly see is far fewer 1911s, instead I see Glocks, M&Ps, Walthers, SIGs, Rugers and HKs. It seems to me that these guns are being purchased to carry -- isn't the standard news story these days that the expansion of carry permits is driving the sale of handguns?

    Hey, whatever platform and caliber works for you.
     
  14. 200Apples
    • Contributing Member

    200Apples Member

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    Heh. Hardly. It only seems that way because many are taking the easier, softer way and are shooting the 9mm Parabellum cartridge. :D

    I asked a similar question here awhile back, but with a tongue-in-cheek thread title. I don't know if you'd find anything therein interesting, but have a look if you like.

    The 1911 pistol: Obsolete, Irrelevant, Immaterial[?]
     
  15. JohnnyFlake

    JohnnyFlake Member

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    Obviously, there are many opinions, as there should be, because it's all very subjective. For each of us, it is what it is!

    All I can say, is if I was was going out and I knew that I was going to be in a gun fight and I could only carry one handgun with me, nothing else, and I could carry all the loose ammo, loaded magazines or whatever I wanted. I'd be wearing my Springfield 1911 Commander .45acp Operator Champion, with plenty of magazines, loaded with .45acp 230gn ball ammo.
     
  16. guyfromohio

    guyfromohio Member

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    Most classes being offered are for new shooters and the tactical group. Many of the popular instructors (and hence followed by the local instructors) are advocating the striker-fired, plastic platform for simplicity and capacity. And by advocate, I'm seeing them actually list best to worst.....Hi-cap striker, no safety....Low-Cap striker, no safety.....hi-cap DA/SA, no safety.....Revolver.....And then guns with safeties last.....with the low-cap 1911 as the absolute last. The people who generally gravitate towards the 1911s are more experienced and less likely to be taking one to a new shooter class. Is the 1911/.45 losing ground? From a pie-chart standpoint? Perhaps. Are there fewer? No. Is their growth rate less than the current proliferation of 9mm? Without a doubt. If my post in any way insinuates that someone is inexperienced because they want to train or that those who carry 9mm strikers are less whatever than those who carry 1911s, that isn't what I'm saying. However, a less experienced person is less likely to walk home with a $1000 1911 than with a $380 Shield. Again, I love my 1911s, but a 9mm rides on my hip most days (although my DW ECO is gaining my confidence as my next EDC).
     
  17. Polar Express

    Polar Express Member

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    Tirod and Chuck R. hit on what I think are great points.

    I even started a thread recently, as I am considering a change in my EDC. I've been a 1911 guy for years... and even though I'm a bigger guy, (6'2", 225#), I have a very hard time concealing the 1911 design. Even the 'compact' versions, when dressing appropriate for my activity.

    The 1911 design is over 100 years old, and while its been refined a BUNCH, it does get back to the 'purist' vs 'function', or whatever particular words you want to use. There are now SO MANY other designs on the market...

    I fully recognize the "measured loss of fine motor skills under duress" point, so the idea of only having to pull a trigger when you determine it's time to deploy your weapon, (and not fuddle with a safety) makes perfect sense.

    You start to add in the advancements in cartridge and bullet design, and it appears the math says that 9mm is closing the gap with .45 for energy/damage delivered. Add in more rounds, a lighter platform to carry, almost half the cost to buy practice ammo... while I can't ever see myself negatively commenting on the 1911 design, there appear to be numerous smaller reasons that add up, and explain why other options make sense to folks.

    analogy: a 1967 Corvette ragtop, with a 427 is a classic. Lots of power, sexy lines, hits hard, all kinds of style. A 2010 Audi A6 3.0T can be driven every day to work, the ski hill, the grocery store and... would EAT THAT VETTE ALIVE when you put your foot into it. And it's a V6. Which is sexier? Hands down, the 'Vette, which is more practical for every day? Easily the Audi.​

    Propaganda/movies/TV also play a part. Purists are always a small part of any market. When Glock entered the scene, sure, they weren't the first plastic gun, but.. they were the first to laud their 'differentness' as 'superior function', and as many threads have eluded to, Glock really touted their reliability; although when folks offer experiences, it doesn't appear they are any more reliable that any other design.

    I don't think the 1911/.45 is ever going away.. just like the American Muscle cars... but the newer designed options are catching the attention of folks who weren't shooting 30+ years ago (because they may not have been alive then)

    Just my thoughts..
    PE
     
  18. BigBore44

    BigBore44 Member

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    The 1911 is going no where. The 45 isn't either. That's like saying the lever action 30-30 or bolt '06 is being replaced by the AR. It's not gonna happen in my lifetime and I've got a good 50 years left. There's room in the world for both.
     
  19. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Yep so many, yet they are almost all based on those 100 year old ideas for function or even older. Heck poly handguns are coming up on 50yrs now. so I think it's time to drop the "modern" schtick.
     
  20. bangswitch

    bangswitch Member

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    I'm another who is gravitating toward the 1911, instead of away from it. It's my newest purchase, and looking back I can't figure why it's taken me so long to get one. I've about had enough of plastic guns; give me something solid and made of metal, I'm willing to pay extra to get it. The advent of plastic was solely to decrease manufacturing cost and increase profitability, IMO. Tell me what plastic gun will be worth twice as much fifteen years from now.

    I carry a full size 1911A1 now, and it conceals better than my compact .40, and only holds one less round. Capacity isn't that important to me, I see no reason to have a double stack that holds 15-16 rounds. I doubt I'll be attacked by a zombie horde or a pack of Hell's Angels; most likely it wouldn't be more than two to one. If both are armed, it's a toss-up who gets who first, but one-on-one, I figure if I can't place three shots in the kill zone, I may as well just stand still and let them take their best shot. I'll have a second magazine handy, at any rate.

    I think what people buy is what friends and instructors recommend to them, along with what they may have tried and what fits their hand and scares them the least with its noise and recoil.

    It may not have the hitting power of some other available calibers, but it'll do.
     
  21. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Is your pistol going to be worth twice as much 15 years from now? Is that because of 100% inflation between now and then? lol

    I'll bet good polymer guns hold their value at least as good as 1911's. Glocks resale like Hondas. May as well buy new because the discount buying used is extremely small (excepting deals on police trade ins or desperate sales and the like)
     
  22. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    I started off with a 9mm and now carry a SIG P220 in .45 ACP. I'm not a huge 1911 fan but I definitely like my .45s now. 9mm isn't that exciting for me to shoot anymore.
     
  23. bangswitch

    bangswitch Member

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    It may cost twice as much due to inflation, but that doesn't mean it will be worth twice as much. Sure, most guns will appreciate in value over time, if they are quality pieces to begin with. My point is, no SR-9 or M&P or XD will appreciate as much as a 1911 or BHP in the same condition would.

    Is my G20 Gen 2 worth twice what I paid for it in 1992? Are they selling for $850 now? That's 24 years I've had it. I bought a new S&W M19 back in 1975 for around $300, it cost me 2-1/2 times that much to replace it this year with a used one. (same dash, BTW).
     
  24. MauserHSCman

    MauserHSCman Member

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    Close, but no cigar. Let me take a stab at it...

    That's not correct. What that's showing is that .0990 = 61% of .1605.

    So, what that really means is that .1605 is 39% larger than .0990.

    For .1605 to be 61% larger, the other number would have to be .06259 (39% of .1605).

    You subtract 61% from 100% to find out the difference. 100 - 61 = 39, or 39%.

    To make it easier to understand, let's simply compare the outer diameter of bullets. A 9mm is .355 and a .45 is .451.

    If I divide .355 by .451, I get .787 (.355 / .451 = .787). That means that the 9mm bullet is 78.7% of the diameter of the .45 and NOT that the .45 is 78.7% larger than the 9mm.

    To find out how much larger (in percentage) I take 78.7 and subtract that from 100. 100 - 78.7 = 21.3.

    So, a .45 caliber bullet diameter is 21.3% larger than a 9mm bullet diameter.



    (Sorry, I haven't figured out how to refer back to someone else's post yet - this is a reply to Buckhorn Cortez from yesterday).

    HERE IS THE CORRECT CALCULATION:


    Diameter 1 is to Diameter 2 as .355 is to .451

    D1/D2, or .355/.451 = .78. Therefore, D1 is 78% of D2

    D2 is to D1 as .451 is to .355

    D2/D1, or .451/.355 = 1.27. Therefore D2 is 127% of D1, or 27% larger.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2016
  25. Tallball

    Tallball Member

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    I see a lot of 1911's at the range and scrounge a whole lot of 45acp brass.

    But I live in Texas.

    And drive a '67 Mustang.

    :)
     
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