.45 Black Powder Magnum

[TTv2]

I know this cartridge was uh... "invented" for use in cartridge converted Colt Walkers, but it's also possible to be used in .410 chambered handguns like the Judge, Governor, Bond Arms derringers, etc.

I have many questions, so please bear with me.

1. Is it safe to use Triple 7 or Pyrodex? I'm not one who likes to use fillers, so I would fill the case with either powder and I believe the capacity in the .45 BPM case (yeah, I know it's really a .460) is something well over 50 grains. Is that safe to shoot in a Judge or Governor?

2. What velocities are you getting with BPM? What barrel length you get said velocity? Currently thinking of using this in a 2" Public Defender and 6 inch Judge.

3. Can I load .45 BPM with .45 Colt dies or do I need .454 or .460 dies to load them?

4. Do you think the .45 BPM has enough merit in power and/or accuracy over .45 Colt using smokeless powders? Basically, is it worth getting into for shooting in a .410 revolver?

 

[rodwha]

Pyrodex and Triple 7 were developed as grain for grain substitutes for black powder. Anything you could stuff with that much powder can be stuffed with any of the substitutes safely.

For a while people read into the Hodgdon note for T7 that loads should be reduced by 15%, but this was to replicate the velocity of black powder, which clearly was any of the weaker variety as Swiss and Olde Eynsford both have shown to produce slightly more velocity than T7. This was never about safety.

Whether or not that’s safe for the guns you mentioned is unknown I’d guess. Who knows the pressures it will produce? Maybe speak with the guy who had it developed. Maybe he has some numbers for you.

Quite frankly I think it likely a waste in a 2” barrel. BP needs room to burn. I’d think it likely a waste with anything more than maybe 30-35 grns of powder. Maybe loading 30-35 grns under 2 or 3 .451-.454” balls would be something to think about from a 2” barrel?

When you ask about the BPM vs a .45 Colt with smokeless I suppose it depends on what powder you are using in both. Since a magnum is about power I’d use nothing but T7, Swiss, or Olde E in 3F. Anything else would be silly really.

When you look at the few chronographed results with an energetic powder and a bullet you’ll see it generally outperforms the standard .45 Colt performance levels (400-450 ft/lbs).

Judging by what little info is available I assume that my Remington NMA with my 195 grn bullet and 33 weighed grns of 3F Olde E is likely somewhere in the standard .45 ACP level of performance (350-425 ft/lbs) and my Ruger with a weighed 38 grns and said bullet is likely in the +P realm with 450-525 ft/lbs. Some people claim to even more.

 

[Stormson]

Gonna be a real pain tearing that double action down to clean the corrosive BP out of every time...

 

[TTv2]

Gonna be a real pain tearing that double action down to clean the corrosive BP out of every time...

Stainless revolver

 

[TTv2]

Pyrodex and Triple 7 were developed as grain for grain substitutes for black powder. Anything you could stuff with that much powder can be stuffed with any of the substitutes safely.

For a while people read into the Hodgdon note for T7 that loads should be reduced by 15%, but this was to replicate the velocity of black powder, which clearly was any of the weaker variety as Swiss and Olde Eynsford both have shown to produce slightly more velocity than T7. This was never about safety.

Whether or not that’s safe for the guns you mentioned is unknown I’d guess. Who knows the pressures it will produce? Maybe speak with the guy who had it developed. Maybe he has some numbers for you.

Quite frankly I think it likely a waste in a 2” barrel. BP needs room to burn. I’d think it likely a waste with anything more than maybe 30-35 grns of powder. Maybe loading 30-35 grns under 2 or 3 .451-.454” balls would be something to think about from a 2” barrel?

When you ask about the BPM vs a .45 Colt with smokeless I suppose it depends on what powder you are using in both. Since a magnum is about power I’d use nothing but T7, Swiss, or Olde E in 3F. Anything else would be silly really.

When you look at the few chronographed results with an energetic powder and a bullet you’ll see it generally outperforms the standard .45 Colt performance levels (400-450 ft/lbs).

Judging by what little info is available I assume that my Remington NMA with my 195 grn bullet and 33 weighed grns of 3F Olde E is likely somewhere in the standard .45 ACP level of performance (350-425 ft/lbs) and my Ruger with a weighed 38 grns and said bullet is likely in the +P realm with 450-525 ft/lbs. Some people claim to even more.

I'd agree with you on the 2 inch barrel, I feel .45 Colt is enough given the distances I'd be shooting, I just thought it was worth mentioning for the sake of more info on the velocity potential of the BPM cartridge. As for the two ball load, I already have that for .45 Colt using a .454 in the case, a .451 on top of that, and 9 grains of Unique under it.

T7 is my preferred "magnum" BP powder, local stores sell it while Swiss is an online store only for me and thus the $20 Hazmat. It's also become difficult to find online, most places are always sold out of Swiss.

Idk who invented the .45 BPM, nor where else to ask about it. I figure this forum being as large as it is someone would eventually find this and have an answer for me. It does seem tho that the user base for .45 BPM is very small as it's only real use is in converted Uberti Walkers with conversion cylinders that have been reamed to accept the long case and maybe .410 revolver users.

 

[LRDGCO]

Rodwha pretty much covered it. BP needs barrel length to burn. At up to 60 grs in the BMP, a 9" Colt Walker barrel gets a good deal of it burnt. Shorter than that, not so much.

Just as an fyi, a stainless pistol will not resist the corrosion of Black Powder, or its substitutes. And its internal parts are not stainless.

For more info on the BMP

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Black_Powder_Magnum

 

[TTv2]

Rodwha pretty much covered it. BP needs barrel length to burn. At up to 60 grs in the BMP, a 9" Colt Walker barrel gets a good deal of it burnt. Shorter than that, not so much.

Just as an fyi, a stainless pistol will not resist the corrosion of Black Powder, or its substitutes. And its internal parts are not stainless.

For more info on the BMP

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Black_Powder_Magnum

The wikipedia article is what I've been looking at, but it doesn't answer all my questions.

I would only use the .45 BPM in the 6.5" Taurus Judge, if I could get one for a good price, and that's about the only gun I can think of that would shoot it I would buy. No interest in Uberti Walker repros or the Circuit Judge revolver rifle.

I know a stainless gun isn't rustproof to BP, but it isn't as susceptible to it as non stainless is. I intend to clean them and Triple 7 advertises all that's needed to clean is water and I have an ultrasonic cleaner. Can't fit the whole gun into it, but I can fit the action in it without total disassembly.

Also, with my BP revolvers, I find fouling and BP residue doesn't get into the action. I've opened up both 1858 and 1851's and not a spec of anything inside.

 

[rodwha]

I'd agree with you on the 2 inch barrel, I feel .45 Colt is enough given the distances I'd be shooting, I just thought it was worth mentioning for the sake of more info on the velocity potential of the BPM cartridge. As for the two ball load, I already have that for .45 Colt using a .454 in the case, a .451 on top of that, and 9 grains of Unique under it.

T7 is my preferred "magnum" BP powder, local stores sell it while Swiss is an online store only for me and thus the $20 Hazmat. It's also become difficult to find online, most places are always sold out of Swiss.

Idk who invented the .45 BPM, nor where else to ask about it. I figure this forum being as large as it is someone would eventually find this and have an answer for me. It does seem tho that the user base for .45 BPM is very small as it's only real use is in converted Uberti Walkers with conversion cylinders that have been reamed to accept the long case and maybe .410 revolver users.

I’ll see if I can’t hunt him down. When he was first developing it he started threads (years ago) and we had a few conversations.

As to the HazMat and shipping I likely looked at it from a similar perspective years ago. And then came the dark days when shooting supplies became hard to come by. I always bought my T7 at BassPro 30 mins down the road. But for months there was no 3F available. Looked at Grafs and noticed the price was greatly reduced, though it took 3 lbs to about break even. However I quit wasting time and gas (I get about 16 mpg) looking for it. Granted I’m spending maybe $100 at once I’m well stocked and didn’t have to turn the ignition or get stuck waiting to find someone who likely is clueless anyway if I can get the one powder I want. Now I don’t bother and just order it, though 2/3 of my orders usually have Olde Eynsford by Goex in it as it’s cheaper.

I thought about it a moment and believe it is Magnum Wheel Man on The Firing Line. Didn’t find evidence of PMs but sent one regardless as I think it’s him. I’ll look elsewhere as maybe I’m wrong.

 

[rodwha]

Couldn’t find anything else. But I’m 90% sure he’s the guy. Hopefully he’ll respond to my PM.

 

[TTv2]

I’ll see if I can’t hunt him down. When he was first developing it he started threads (years ago) and we had a few conversations.

As to the HazMat and shipping I likely looked at it from a similar perspective years ago. And then came the dark days when shooting supplies became hard to come by. I always bought my T7 at BassPro 30 mins down the road. But for months there was no 3F available. Looked at Grafs and noticed the price was greatly reduced, though it took 3 lbs to about break even. However I quit wasting time and gas (I get about 16 mpg) looking for it. Granted I’m spending maybe $100 at once I’m well stocked and didn’t have to turn the ignition or get stuck waiting to find someone who likely is clueless anyway if I can get the one powder I want. Now I don’t bother and just order it, though 2/3 of my orders usually have Olde Eynsford by Goex in it as it’s cheaper.

I thought about it a moment and believe it is Magnum Wheel Man on The Firing Line. Didn’t find evidence of PMs but sent one regardless as I think it’s him. I’ll look elsewhere as maybe I’m wrong.

Thanks for the info, I'll email him. He hasn't been on that forum in 2 years. Hopefully he's not pushing daises.

As for the Hazmat fees, I wouldn't be opposed to them if I shot BP and subs more. I do it maybe 3 or 4 times a year and use powders I can get at my local shops. I figure it's the one thing I can buy locally to support local business and not spend a lot of money all at once. If I got into BP rifles and shotguns I'd need more powder, but I'm not there yet. T7 cleans up easier for me anyway.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I know this cartridge was uh... "invented" for use in cartridge converted Colt Walkers, but it's also possible to be used in .410 chambered handguns like the Judge, Governor, Bond Arms derringers, etc.
I have many questions, so please bear with me.

1. Is it safe to use Triple 7 or Pyrodex? I'm not one who likes to use fillers, so I would fill the case with either powder and I believe the capacity in the .45 BPM case (yeah, I know it's really a .460) is something well over 50 grains. Is that safe to shoot in a Judge or Governor?
I would say yes, as those handguns must be able to hold .45 Colt max pressures, and you should find in the reloading data that the BP or the substitute does not exceed such pressures in the .45 BPM. I'd look up the data to be sure.

2. What velocities are you getting with BPM? What barrel length you get said velocity? Currently thinking of using this in a 2" Public Defender and 6 inch Judge.
Part of the equation is how much gap is there from the end of the cartridge to the end of the cylinder. For example I get pretty good performance from my S&W 940 which is a .38 snub nose designed revolver, but uses a clip and 9mm cartridges. The 9mm is shorter than the .38 special, but the cylinder is the same length as the .38 special versions as that was more commonly offered in that gun. So I get a bit of acceleration before my 9mm bullet cross the cylinder gap. Now the .45 BPM is 2.14" but the revolvers are rated to take 2.5" .410 shot shells with room for the crimping to expand forward. I agree with rodwha…, I don't think that's enough to take advantage of the extra powder. What would happen if you trimmed the brass down from 1.8" to 1.5" and used 180-200 grain bullets (or heck used 141 grain all lead .454 round ball) and 4Fg powder with a magnum primer.... giving more case capacity than the .45 Colt and a very fast burning powder, plus more distance before the gap....might make for an interesting experiment..., but again check the pressure.

4. Do you think the .45 BPM has enough merit in power and/or accuracy over .45 Colt using smokeless powders? Basically, is it worth getting into for shooting in a .410 revolver?
As above, I think it would be fun to learn about, but as others have mentioned the dirtiness of the load, let alone the cloud of smoke..., I think .45 colt handloads with the right powder in the Governor or the Judge will give you better MV than will the BP. The .45 BPM is really for folks who have converted a Black Powder Walker or 1st Model Dragoon to .45 Colt, using a conversion cylinder that requires black powder or a substitute..... BUT compared to the BP load in the Cap-n-Ball cylinders, the BP .45 Colt is a tad under power, so they are looking to get up around 40+ grains of powder with that "magnum" cartridge.

Who knows, maybe a shortened case, loading with a round ball, in Judge or Governor might bridge the gap between the two.... You could call it the ".45 Black Powder Judgement" or something like that.

LD

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

I would be leery of this for a variety of reasons, and one is recoil and its effect on the gun. Recoil is determined by the mass that goes out the barrel and the velocity it does so at. If you shoot a 250gr. bullet over a 55gr. BP load you are sending 305gr. downrange. The same bullet over 10gr. of Unique is sending 260gr. downrange at the same velocity- it will recoil less. Not to mention that the second load is +P load that probably shouldn't be fired in a Judge to begin with.

If you do want to pursue this I would look at the Raging Judge, which is rated for .454 Casull. You can't put enough black powder in a case that will fit to blow that gun up.

 

[Choctaw]

Stainless revolver

Doesn't matter. You still have to clean it.

 

[woodnbow]

It’d be fun to try it... in the short bbl I’d stick with a heavy bullet and 40-50 grains of 4f. Probably not the most efficient load around but it’s black powder, we already know that. My reasoning is that the heavy slug will accelerate more slowly giving time for a more complete burn... still nowhere near an efficient load but it would be worth doing just to see the smoke and fire belching from your little hand cannon. And I agree about cleanup, hose it down with Eezox or CLP, inside and out, you’ll be fine for a good year or until you feel like a complete tearing down.

 

[TTv2]

Read through all the replies and I think I'm not going to go out of my way to get a 6 inch Judge simply to shoot .45 BPM from it. Even if one dropped into my lap for free, I'd have to think about if the time loading a black powder cartridge and cleaning is worth it for a modern revolver. It's clear that the BPM's use is very narrow and even when used in a Walker is still a time consuming process.

I think it's still a cool idea, but not something I feel I need to do in my life.

 

[PapaG]

The whole idea of having a black powder gun that would chamber a .460 case scares the crap out of me. Somebody, somewhere is bound to apply for a Darwin award with one.

 

[rodwha]

The whole idea of having a black powder gun that would chamber a .460 case scares the crap out of me. Somebody, somewhere is bound to apply for a Darwin award with one.

Why would having it encased in a cartridge be any different that loading it all separately?

There are double barreled handguns chambered in higher powered cartridges than this .45 BP Magnum.

 

[PapaG]

Why would having it encased in a cartridge be any different that loading it all separately?

There are double barreled handguns chambered in higher powered cartridges than this .45 BP Magnum.

I was envisioning someone loading a normal 460 in a conversion gun.

 

[rodwha]

I was envisioning someone loading a normal 460 in a conversion gun.

Yikes! That would be catastrophic for sure!

And I suppose you make a good point in that it’s easy to load a bit smokeless cartridge into a conversion cylinder’s chambers. The .454 Casull would easily load in their as well. And it’s stated that (all of them?) only cowboy loads can be loaded, though I know some have been fed a steady diet of standard smokeless loads (400-450 ft/lb variety), but even some of the hotter versions can just as easily be loaded. Ultimately one has to be both certain of what they are loading as well as making certain those around them understand this as they could easily not come home one day leaving these to their family or friends who may not know or understand.

 

[PapaG]

I have at present a Howells cylinder in my ROA and am absolutely certain to only shoot my special ROA loads in it. It is the only 45 Colt load I make with a button nose swc. If I want power I either put the percussion cylinder in it and use a round ball and ffffg or the Lee 45220 designed for it on top of a full load of fffg. It isn't a magnum and nothing I can do will make it one. My three screw Super Blackhawk, my 29-2, or my Blackhawk 45 Colt will serve those needs. Careful friends. Heck, my 686 can do anything I want here in Illinois.

 

[TTv2]

The whole idea of having a black powder gun that would chamber a .460 case scares the crap out of me. Somebody, somewhere is bound to apply for a Darwin award with one.

As long as someone buys a plastic ammo container and labels every 50 or 100 rd box correctly, this won't happen.

I have a Ruger Redhawk and an 1858 conversion that will both shoot .45 Colt, but when I'm making lower power ammo for the 1858 (usually a 250 grain lead bullet with 7.0 grains of Unique) I make sure I label that ammo as that's the only load I shoot in the 1858. Everything else goes in the Redhawk without issue cuz it's a Redhawk.

This is also a similar reason I don't load .32 S&W Long hot because I have an H&R top break that is not a strong gun. If I want a bit more power, but not max power, I'll use .32 H&R or .327 cases instead.

 

[ClemBert]

I was envisioning someone loading a normal 460 in a conversion gun.

A "normal" .460 S&W is too long to fit in a Walker conversion cylinder. The maximum length cartridge that'll fit in a Walker conversion cylinder is 2.140 inches and I'm not aware of any .460 S&W that's that short so it's a non-existent issue. More likely you'll want to worry about someone loading up a percussion revolver with smokeless powder or while we are on that topic you may as well worry about someone putting +P .45 Colt in a blackpowder conversion cylinder or loading up their own +++P loads. There's a million more chances of those two scenarios than the one that you've envisioned.

I believe the whole point of .45 BPM is to allow shooting up to 60 grains BP cartridges in a Walker. Shooting .45 Colt (38 - 40 grains FFFg max) in a Walker seems a bit silly given the Walker was designed to hold up to 60 grains.

 

[whughett]

I believe the whole point of .45 BPM is to allow shooting up to 60 grains BP cartridges in a Walker. Shooting .45 Colt (38 - 40 grains FFFg max) in a Walker seems a bit silly given the Walker was designed to hold up to 60 grains.

This summer I intend to do some crony RO work with the 45C in the three revolvers I have with conversion cylinders. A ROA, R&S, and the 1860 Colt. From time to time I load a 45C cartridge, brim full of 3F and seat a 250 grain bullet over it. That round is stout in the conversion cylinders. I also load a more sensible 30 grain load with a .454 round ball and wax wad in the 45C case, and that round, while the same load as the cap cylinder is much stouter in felt recoil and muzzle blast.

This leads me to wonder if the full charged 45C in the Walker cylinder would equal or at least approach the ballistics of the 60 grain charge in the Walker cap cylinder. I don't have a conversion cylinder for my Walker so I'll never know for sure, but I can max load the ROA with cap and ball and compare the velocity with the 45C max load.

Some points perhaps, Black Powder is compressible and one can compress it with a reloading press a lot more than a loading lever on a cap gun., The cartridge fully contains the pressure, some escapes the nipple, and the heavy roll crimp on the bullet delays the bullet movement somewhat.

I had acquired a used Chrony from a friend late in the Fall and didn't have a chance to use it before coming south for the winter.

 

[MicFly]

View attachment 877059

A "normal" .460 S&W is too long to fit in a Walker conversion cylinder. The maximum length cartridge that'll fit in a Walker conversion cylinder is 2.140 inches and I'm not aware of any .460 S&W that's that short so it's a non-existent issue. More likely you'll want to worry about someone loading up a percussion revolver with smokeless powder or while we are on that topic you may as well worry about someone putting +P .45 Colt in a blackpowder conversion cylinder or loading up their own +++P loads. There's a million more chances of those two scenarios than the one that you've envisioned.

I believe the whole point of .45 BPM is to allow shooting up to 60 grains BP cartridges in a Walker. Shooting .45 Colt (38 - 40 grains FFFg max) in a Walker seems a bit silly given the Walker was designed to hold up to 60 grains.

The 460 will fit in a Walker conversion cylinder. I converted a 2nd model dragoon using a walker conversion cylinder. I use 460 S&W cases loaded with 45 to 60 of BP substitute and a variety of bullets. My favorite load is 35-45gr of pyrodex under two 140gr round balls. Get anywhere from 780fps to just under 900fps depending on how I load them. Pic of the target is four shots with this load at about 15 paces

 

[grter]

A "normal" .460 S&W is too long to fit in a Walker conversion cylinder. The maximum length cartridge that'll fit in a Walker conversion cylinder is 2.140 inches and I'm not aware of any .460 S&W that's that short so it's a non-existent issue. More likely you'll want to worry about someone loading up a percussion revolver with smokeless powder or while we are on that topic you may as well worry about someone putting +P .45 Colt in a blackpowder conversion cylinder or loading up their own +++P loads. There's a million more chances of those two scenarios than the one that you've envisioned.

I believe the whole point of .45 BPM is to allow shooting up to 60 grains BP cartridges in a Walker. Shooting .45 Colt (38 - 40 grains FFFg max) in a Walker seems a bit silly given the Walker was designed to hold up to 60 grains.

In an age where steel was not that great and most people wanted the smallest revolvers they can get a five pound horse pistol that can take 50 to 60 grains of powder would not have been chosen by anyone who felt 30 to 40 grain loads would be adequate. There were much smaller and lighter in essence more efficient guns for that and they were in fact much more popular in those days. That BPM load must have been meant for people who had converted walkers and a need for that kind of power in a specialty pistol and were not fond of the slow process of muzzle loading after being exposed to the ease of using cartridges.

That is just a guess on my part and the issue to me is moot unless I own a walker replica that is converted to fire cartridges and generally would not be safe with smokeless loads that approach that power range (smokeless has a different pressure curve) and or if one has a fondness of loud booms and billowing smoke and for any number of reasons likes cartridge conversion Walkers.

Using black powder and most black powder subs (Pyrodex being a real rotter) is always a clean immediately after use proposition and although stainless resists corrosion better black powder and subs will corrode it as well. Also when stainless does finally corrode you get these mega pits more so than carbon steel so I read.

In a 2 inch barrel although you would get a big boom and brilliant flash I would think most of the full potential power of the black powder round would be lost. A smokeless load made for short barrels just might be more likely to give you better performance in that kind of firearm with a lot less hassle.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that was nice guess I almost got all of it right except for the fact that the .45 BPM is a modern concoction using .460 magnum brass to enable the use of full BLACK POWDER CHARGES (ONLY) in relatively modern cartridge converted Walker replicas. Wikipedia is great. It has a load chart too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Black_Powder_Magnum