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Black powder/substitutes- school me?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Michael Tinker Pearce, Apr 28, 2019.

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  1. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO member

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    Your reaction to critique of a BP substitute product is irrational and you are unhinged. I guess this is why there's an ignore button. Expelliarmus!

    And, in the unlikely event that anyone else is interested, page 73 of the attached paper clearly shows graphs representing the relationship between pressure and velocity in internal ballistics.

    http://www.wydawnictwa.ipo.waw.pl/cejem/Vol-12-Number-1-2015/Trebinski1.pdf
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  2. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    Oh, good grief! Seriously?!?! Talk about using something irrelevant. How does that even remotely touch on the subject of how these powders compare to BP?

    Sure, it’s quite simple that by increasing the pressure you will increase the velocity. But that has absolutely nothing to do with what you were arguing about.

    If you look at just the few pages I posted you will see that pressures vary and don’t work the way you inflected. Or maybe you didn’t bother to look at what I put before you.

    You still have not provided anything to show that T7 produces higher pressures than BP. I’m still waiting.

    https://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm

    This is your statement:

    “If a powder delivers more velocity for the same volume, it has to be producing more pressure. Because science.”

    Had you have said T7, with the same volume of powder, likely creates more pressure than standard Goex, Schuetzen, Elephant, or some other standard lower energy powder I would agree with you, though I pointed out velocity isn’t a direct indicator of pressure as each powder differs from the next. And as there isn’t any published data on T7 pressures all one can do is make assumptions anyway, though clearly they don’t exceed higher energy powders as they’d have to provide a clear warning, which they do not. But those aren’t the only black powders. What is stated about a 15% reduction is to equate to the more common low energy BP. Swiss was the only higher energy powder and very uncommon here in the US outside of competition. If they were to include Swiss and Olde E they’d need to rewrite that.

    I’m guessing we are looking at this and speaking from different points. It would help if the statements were more direct and less vague.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  3. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

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    Where is the IGNORE button?

    Jim
     
  4. Offthehook

    Offthehook Member

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    Still available. I buy it by the case.
     
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  5. J-Bar

    J-Bar Member

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    Buy a pound of 777, a pound of Pyrodex, a pound of APP, a pound of real BP. Shoot ‘em. Clean your stuff thoroughly after shooting. Make your own decision about what is best for you and your guns.

    As you can see, opinions vary.
     
  6. Michael Tinker Pearce

    Michael Tinker Pearce Member

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    Thank you all for your responses. TheOutlawKid- I'm in Seattle; it's pretty humid here. I'm going to look into Black MZ- I am hearing good things about it.

    The reason that I specified the subs that I did is that they are the ones available conveniently and locally. If I want actual Black Powder I have to drive forty minutes each way to the only local store that stocks it. So far if I buy on the internet I need to buy in quantities that are hard for me; it's often all I can do to afford a pound of any powder. Back in the way-backs I used Pyrodex and the results were OK, but I cleaned my guns religiously ASAP after shooting.
     
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  7. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    Luckily, I still have enough DuPont, GOI, Curtiss and Harvey and a few others left so that the subs are merely interesting diversions. Fight it out. It doesn't mean anything in the long run. Get a chrono, develop a load that suits you and let it go. Life is too short to have to be right. I have seen guns ruined with every black and sub out there. Shoot, clean lube, repeat.
    Love you all. (Its inventor was killed by pyrodex. )
     
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  8. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

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    Mr. Michael Tinker...they have a sportsmans warehouse in your area...i just checked online for store locations and there are a few next to you....black mz is sold there for 10 bux a pound over the counter. Black mz is actually formulated to not be so sensitive to moisture, you can read about it online. I use it here and i live in deep south texas by the gulf coast a couple miles from the mexico border and the humidity is thick here...black mz has no issues so long as its kept in its top on when not in use. I make my own black powder but if i buy it then i only buy old eynsford. And as mentioned by some other members...stay away from pyrodex its junk and is the worst in humid weather
     
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  9. Crunchy Frog

    Crunchy Frog Member

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    I have a good friend who has a lot of experience shooting black powder cartridges in cowboy action. He uses Goex black powder which is great but it requires a “black powder compatible” lube on the bullets.

    When I wanted to dip my toes into the waters of “Frontier Cartridge” ammo he suggested that I try APP which will work with the harder lube that comes on the commercial cast bullets that I have. It certainly makes plenty of smoke and residue cleans up with water.

    I recently scored some Black MZ from a local Sportsmans Warehouse; it’s made by the same company that makes APP. It appears to be 2F grain size. I usually prefer 3F in the APP but I’ve used 2F APP and it was fine.

    The residue from APP needs to be cleaned off the dies and powder measure. Otherwise I get rust.
     
  10. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

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    Mr. Michael Tinker....what lube are/will you be using?They say you dont need lube with APP or Black MZ but in my experience you do. Not as much as with black powder but it still helps keep the arbor and cylinder slick and fouling soft. Gatofeo #1 lube works amazing on these subs..even works on smokeless. I use a stiffer modified version of gatofeo #1 lube by just adding 50% more beeswax for a 1-1-.75 ratio of sheep tallow, canning parrafin wax, & beeswax, or all equal ratio of 1-1-1. The stiffer wax can be used in all temps too and when i compared some bullets that were lubed with SPG...the SPG lubing shrunk, chipped and dried out but my gatofeo lubed bullets ramained perfectly fine...no shrinking, drying out, or chipping. I still have some bullets lubed with gatofeo lube and they are over 5 years old sitting in a plastic container and look just as "fresh" as if i had just lubed them that day. I think your choice in lube is one of the most important choices you can make in order for your shooting experience to be a lot more enjoyable...their are a lot of types and recipes out there...some better than others, some better suited for a specific gun/powder/bullet...lots of different variables. Ive made so many lube mixes but ive now come to the conclusion that gatofeo #1 is hard to beat...or even match.
     
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  11. Jackrabbit1957

    Jackrabbit1957 Member

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    Had to weigh in on this one, having shot black powder, T7, Pyrodex, and Black MZ I definitely prefer BlackMZ. It's not as energetic as the others but it leaves very little residue behind. I have yet to shoot it my 45/70 but the cartridges are ready and waiting and I will give a range report when it happens. I don't have all the fancy chronograph equipment so will just have to wing it. I do like it in my percussion revolvers and rifles. Clean up is a breeze, I always clean the same day. It takes half the time than with the other 3 I mentioned. Peace.
     
  12. drobs

    drobs Member

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  13. Michael Tinker Pearce

    Michael Tinker Pearce Member

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    In the way-backs for my percussion revolvers I used a mix of paraffin and beeswax with pyrodex(this was a relatively new product then.) Gave a good seal and held up to high temperatures well. For cartridges I've been using a lubed felt wad under the bullet. Someone gave me a flask of FFFg black powder, type unknown, and I've been loading that. I haven't fired a ton of these cartridges but I've had no problems with clean-up
     
  14. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

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    Mr. Michael, what type of lubed felt wads...homemade with homemade lube or store brand? You also mentioned a mix of parrafin and beeswax..was it just those two waxes without a fat/oil added? Thats interesting because i have a friend who swears by using straight beeswax, but only the really soft kind that comes in "beads", for some reason its softer than the hard brick of wax. You'd think it would all be the same but i guess its not. Anyways...my friend uses just a thin disc of pure beeswax as his lube and he swears by it. I do know in the civil war it was like an 8 to 1 ratio of beeswax to tallow, maybe 6 to 1...but it makes for a very stiff lube that seems like its mainly wax too. What type of bullet are you using for your cartridges?
     
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  15. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    I've loaded Pyrodex in .45 Colt and it worked fine, but I normally shoot Unique or 2400 or Li'l Gun in that Ruger. Just for plinking, Unique works for me. I just did the Pyrodex thing because I have it for my cap and ball guns and just was wondering. :D I see no need for 777 in my Blackhawk when I can whip a 300 grain bullet out of that 4 5/8" barrel at velocities that make my BP guns cry. :D I only use that load for hog hunting, back up if I have to blood trail in the woods.

    Anyway, I see absolutely nothing wrong with Pyrodex. It shoots well in my caplocks and has the smell and experience of the real stuff. It gives me that "BOOOM" I like where 777 sounds more like smokeless when it fires. The BP purists will tell you it's BP or nothing. Well, for me, that'd be nothing. I will NOT bulk order the stuff and ordering small amounts, the hazmat fees are prohibitive. I can get Pyrodex pound at a time for reasonable. I can't even find BP. I heard one shop in San Antonio (150 mile drive) has BP. I can't find ANY in Houston. I'd like to have a pound or two of 2F because it ignites so well in a caplock. That's the problem with Pyrodex, but that's NOT a problem in cartridge guns or even straight ignition such as a cap and ball revolver. I do use hot caps, though. One can occasionally get hang fires with weak caps. That never happens with a clean chamber and Black.
     
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  16. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    That's good even with BP which is highly corrosive. I used to shoot BP until about the late 70s when it became unavailable at gun shops and Pyrodex came out. I shoot mostly pyrodex in my cap and ball guns and they're all corrosion free. I clean 'em just like I did BP, soapy water. I then dry 'em well and spray 'em down with WD 40 to displace any water I didn't get to. It's NOT that big a deal IMHO, but I get to 'em soon as I'm through shooting, don't let 'em sit a few days, not even with BP. :D

    When I shot the stuff in .45 Colt, I soaked the brass in soapy water and cleaned 'em pretty quickly with wet pins which REALLY shines up brass like new. :D I have a tumbler and pins for this.
     
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  17. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

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    MCgunner, i know of a tool that will help you shoot ur side locks with finicky powders. Its made by Treso and its a nipple primer. U fill it with 4f or 3f powder and its spring loaded so it can be done one handed. U just press it against the nipple and it trickles a charge of powder inside the nipple. Makes for a guaranteed ignition. Ill post a couple pics of it.
    20190323_151033.jpg 20190323_151047.jpg 20190323_150151.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Michael Tinker Pearce

    Michael Tinker Pearce Member

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    They're the type that came with the case when I bought a used gun. :)

    Hunting coyotes in Kansas (a long time ago) I used to seal every chamber-and the area surrounding the nipple- on my revolver with straight paraffin. For the nipples I'd basically put a pin in the nipple, and fill all around the nipple with wax. I'd push the caps into the wax to seat them and it would even fire after I slipped and landed on my gun side in an ice-cold creek... thank God I had a change of clothes...
     
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  19. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Thanks. I cured the problem with a little gizmo that adapts the gun to shoot small rifle magnum primers. I took it out of one of my guns when I bought an adapter for THAT gun to shoot 209 primers. :D Hell, THAT one even ignites BH209 in my Hawken!!

    I was priming the nipple, though, but it wasn't too consistent. That tool would prime the nipple a LOT more consistently I'll bet than just dribbling what I could from my powder flask. :D If I ever thought I'd hunt New Mexico again, I'd buy that! NM requires cap or flint for "primitive weapons" season.
     
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  20. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

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    Ive heard of civil war soldiers and people around that time frame who used wax to help seal their nipples too. Seems like a great method to keep it guaranteed water tight. I use remington caps paired with slixshot nipples and they seal water tight...ive gone in water with my gun and it shot just fine.
     
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  21. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

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    Yeah the treso nipple primer is pretty consistent in how much powder it drops. I use it whenever i shoot my homemade percussion caps on a rifle
     
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  22. Michael Tinker Pearce

    Michael Tinker Pearce Member

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    "...used wax to help seal their nipples..."
    Not a phrase I ever expected to read...:rofl:
     
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  23. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

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    Lol mr.michael...yeah at first you kinda smirk and laugh a bit when you read these phrases, but once you spend enough time on the black powder forum you get used to people talking about shooting their wads and lubing their balls etc. And then someone will ask you what ur reading so intently and you catch yourself telling someone "oh this one guy has a great method for keeping caps tightly snug on his nipples so they dont come off when he fires off his loads! His technique is new to me...man i wonder what kind of lube hes using...bet its homemade...wonder if he lubes under or over his balls?"
     
  24. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    I had a gentleman's ears perk up at a match the other day when he overheard me talking about using Swedish strippers for my 1903 LOL
     
  25. TheOutlawKid

    TheOutlawKid Member

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    Lol 1kperday. Yeah our sport has has a lingo all of its own.
     
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