.45 Weak?

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Hence the Glaser Safety Slug. I don't get your point.

According to all the ballistic testing I have seen, the Glaser Safety Slug is probably a better example of the ineffectiveness of fragmentation than the effectiveness of fragmentation.

I'm rapidly losing patience for your belligerence.

I don't think I'm the one who started the exaggerated smarty-pants answers; as in, "300 fps, oops, paintball gun." I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you were just engaging in good-natured ribbing and I only meant to respond in kind. Your comments did not strike me as seriously belligerent and I didn't intend mine to be.

Merry Christmas ;)
 
A gunsmith in B.C. Canada is making .45 brass from .308 brass to help with the unsuported chamber issue.

"The Armco .45-08 brass is back in stock :)** This super-strong .45ACP brass is again available.* Made right here from cut-down and neck-reamed commercial .308 brass, we have documented over 1000 ft-lbs of energy from a standard 5" barreled 1911!* 200 grain bullets at 1500 seems to be all the primers will tolerate, and and deliberate proof-type overloads only generate a LOT of recoil and pierced primers.* This is tough brass!* Sold
with a fact sheet/loading guide in 25-packs"

45%2008%20%202.jpg
 
I like this.

Hey again:
Man, bet you didn't think you'd open a can of worms like this. I can see what you are getting at. And to some degree I can agree. But I said this before and will again. Numbers are still just numbers. The .45 acp is the prefered Stoppnig round still to this day. (100 years later) The never was anything wrong with it's numbers. Most of these guys hit the nail on the head.
That round is a long standing round for competative shooting and still a self defence round. This is what I carry every day. Again with the numbers , In the hands of an expert the .22 rim fire can be a very nasty little self defence round. Not much for numbers yet will stop a pissed off bad guy that does not want to get hit with it agian. In the rifle world the 30-30 numbers are not that great. But that round has killed a lot of game and will continue to. The modern day self defence ammo for the .45 acp is called stopping ammo.
It was designed that way on purpose. No one wants a round to blow thru a bad guy and end up some where it should not have. The lower Psi of that .45 will allow this to take place. A stronger .45 round would blow thru and at that point become much less desireable as a self defence round. I'd guess the numbers are right where they belong.
But you can keep playing with the numbers if you want, Nothing wrong with investigating.:)
Hey nice look at the brass, Thanks.
 
One of the things I've seen written about urban combat is over penetration. As I understand it there is a upper limitation of about 20" for police rounds in many cities. Of course the idea being that anything that can penetrate the bad guy and kill someone else a block away eventually will. The .45 ACP answers that nicely, the 9MM is near the high end. Sometimes I like to think in terms that helps answer questions by going to extremes. A bowling ball, if it could be accurately aimed at a dangerous person from 20 yards at 50 feet per second would probably knock the stuffing out of most people, it probably wouldn't kill them, certainly wouldn't penetrate them. A needle fired at (Going ridiculous here) 50,000 feet per second would probably go right through a person and I'm guessing they would hardly notice it. Just a mental exercise. :) Of course the discussion of actual FBI stopping power
 
I apologize, antsi. I was in the wrong. I'm never good at reading people on the 'Net and today has been a rather sour day for me.
 
When you start crunching numbers and stats, you quickly come to realise that you'd really rather have a rifle or shotgun handy. Most handguns are just making the best of a bad job (balancing convenience vs. power), but a more skilful (and lucky) operator can push the envelope some.
 
Every one of them is skewed toward velocity. Run the numbers of the cartridges those old timers took to Africa. If you look at the numbers only, they should have been using .22-250 and .243 for eland and rhino.
I disagree. They are not skewed towards velocity, it's just looking at energy. It's physics, bud. E=MC^2. Energy equals mass times celeriter (speed) squared. Naturally, if you increase speed by only a small amount, you get drastic results. Unless you think Einstein had it in for big-bore hunters, you need to rethink that statement.
His statement is correct. So is yours. The numbers are skewed by velocity, because you're looking at energy (for exactly the reason you stated- squaring velocity in the energy equation makes subtle increases in velocity much more important in calculating energy). "Skewing" something does not imply some sort of underhanded bias, at least certainly not in the context of physics.

Energy is only one part in the calculation of terminal effectiveness. If it was the only thing, the only bullet we would ever consider shooting was some 1gr pill flying at ridiculous velocities.

Any given number only show us a small part of reality. It shows that part very clearly, but it is only one piece of a bigger puzzle.

Mike
 
I've played with the .45 WinMag in an AMT AutoMag IV. Now THAT was a nice hand-cannon! It had a hefty recoil but was manageable but it was far from practical and better suited to killing bowling pins, steel plates and wayward bison. My preferred carry gun is my Norinco 1911A1. For me, the .45 has PLENTY of knock down power without the over penetration you get from the hot 9mm's.
 
Assuming correct bullet placement, I've sometimes pondered whether there could be an ideal combination of bullet diameter, weight and velocity (let's assume FMJ, to keep things simple).

Just by the by - kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x the squared velocity
 
There is also the .460 Rowland. It's a hair longer and loaded hotter. It mimics .44 magnum ballistics with lighter bullets.

Like people have mentioned though, increasing velocity doesn't always make it better. There are many values that must be weighed against each other and can't entirely be quantified. For instance would it be better to hit a bad guy with two .45 rounds with about 400 fpe in one second or one .45 round with 700 fpe in one second? Alot of it depends on the work the cartridge actually does with that energy (tissue destruction, overpenetration, shock waves>>temp. cavity, bullet deformation, etc).
 
I will go with a 40 over the 45

I think the stopping power of the .45ACP has been overrated.

Energy is just the power to do something, like expand or penetrate. If you use ammo that does not expand (ball) or barely expands, then the round will use that energy to penetrate or over penetrate a target.

The 45.ACP, using ball ammo (full metal jacket), it does quite well compared to the 9m.m. fmj load, which has a proven record of FAILURE TO STOP.

With expanding ammo, I do not think it has a great, if any advantage over the 9m.m. This is especially true when using the +P and +P+ ammo for the 9m.m. My favorite carry load is the 124 grain JHP +P from FEDERAL or WINCHESTER.
If you up the ante by using +P ammo in the .45ACP, then recoil goes way up. It is more than I can handle while maintaining speed and accuracy.

I like the .40 caliber in a large gun like the BERETTA 96 Brigadier. It was my duty gun for 8 years and I never felt outgunned. My agency used the BORDER PATROL load. A 155 grain JHP (jacketed hollow point) and we had NO FAILURES with this load.
The only down side is the recoil is brisk in a light weight gun. I had a GLOCK 22 and found it to be hard to control with this load. The H&K 2000, on the other had, shoots quite well with it.

Still, you should carry what you have confidence in. That is a 9m.m. +P or .40 caliber for me.

Jim
 
I said:
Every one of them is skewed toward velocity. Run the numbers of the cartridges those old timers took to Africa. If you look at the numbers only, they should have been using .22-250 and .243 for eland and rhino.

Nolo said:
I disagree. They are not skewed towards velocity, it's just looking at energy. It's physics, bud. E=MC^2. Energy equals mass times celeriter (speed) squared. Naturally, if you increase speed by only a small amount, you get drastic results. Unless you think Einstein had it in for big-bore hunters, you need to rethink that statement

I now reply:
I don't need to rethink my statement, you need to consider the data you're working with. If you'd done any research into existing cartridges and loads in your playing with theoretical numbers, you would have already noticed the bias. You obviously didn't. So you ask a question, get honest answers, then tell folks who try to help you that they're wrong. Go do some real research instead of playing with completely fictional numbers. It's just common sense, "bud".

Now, if you want a further explanation of why the bias exists, keep reading. You hit on it in your retort to me, but didn't see it through your preconcieved conclusion. Velocity is squared. A small change in this factor makes a rather large difference in the result. A change in mass does not reflect the same change that an equal percentage change in velocity would (increase vel. 10% or increase mass 10%). If velocity were everything, we'd all be dead of miniature puncture wounds right now. There are sub-atomic particles passing completely through the earth and our bodies at the rate of about 1 billion a day and at the speed of light. It rather be hit with a baseball at 50mph than a cinderblock.

There is also the frontal area of a large bore bullet to be considered, as opposed to the spire point of most small bore (and higher velocity) rounds. This has been proven for years to be an advantage, many of the old hunters in Africa (again, large bore low velocity rifles) used bullets with large meplats.

I'm a little afraid I might have wasted my time in typing this. I get the feeling your mind is made up and you don't wish to be muddled by facts.
 
I think the stopping power of the .45ACP has been overrated.

Energy is just the power to do something, like expand or penetrate. If you use ammo that does not expand (ball) or barely expands, then the round will use that energy to penetrate or over penetrate a target.

The 45.ACP, using ball ammo (full metal jacket), it does quite well compared to the 9m.m. fmj load, which has a proven record of FAILURE TO STOP.

With expanding ammo, I do not think it has a great, if any advantage over the 9m.m. This is especially true when using the +P and +P+ ammo for the 9m.m. My favorite carry load is the 124 grain JHP +P from FEDERAL or WINCHESTER.
If you up the ante by using +P ammo in the .45ACP, then recoil goes way up. It is more than I can handle while maintaining speed and accuracy.

I like the .40 caliber in a large gun like the BERETTA 96 Brigadier. It was my duty gun for 8 years and I never felt outgunned. My agency used the BORDER PATROL load. A 155 grain JHP (jacketed hollow point) and we had NO FAILURES with this load.
The only down side is the recoil is brisk in a light weight gun. I had a GLOCK 22 and found it to be hard to control with this load. The H&K 2000, on the other had, shoots quite well with it.

Still, you should carry what you have confidence in. That is a 9m.m. +P or .40 caliber for me.

I agree to some extent, though I think the beauty of the .45 defensively is that its a more consistant, less load depend performer than the 9mm, while generally being easier on the gun and shooter than the .40
 
I will go with a 40 over the 45

I think the stopping power of the .45ACP has been overrated.
Great, more .45's for the rest of us.:neener:

No one can dismiss the .45's track record in the 1911.
 
The .45 ACP, like the .30-06, is designed for human beings. Yes, there are more powerful cartridges in both cases, but as designed both approach the capabilities of the average man to shoot them well.

Look at it this way -- if more muzzle energy is better, the .44 Mag should be the hands-down favorite for self-defense, law enforcement and other applications. But it isn't.
 
Hi Nolo,

I'd recommend going to a bowling pin match and/or a tactical "Steel" match and see what slams the targets down the best between the 9mm, 40S&W and .45ACP.

You quickly see that the .45ACP does the job with the most authority . . . yet with an easily manageable recoil that allows one to swing and engage the next target with maximum speed and accuracy.

Sure, a .44mag would do a more decisive job . . . but at the expense of time-robbing massive recoil. Sure, a .22LR will give you a little faster speed between targets . . . but at the expense of the necessary power.

In a self defensive fight-for-your-life, your ability to hit multiple targets (or just a single one repetitively) accurately AND with the most speed between shots, will usually win the fight . . . if the bullet has the best performance and power.

As another wrote, the .45ACP has been around for 100 years because it is the best combination of speed and historically fine effectiveness against human-type targets.

Yep . . . for me . . . that's a .45ACP.

Again, go to some matches where targets have to be slammed down fast and with great authority and see who is winning. With factory-type automatics, it will be the .45ACP guys.
 
Nolo, you are using the wrong formula for energy.

E=MC^2 is Einstein's formula for converting between mass and energy (Energy=Mass*Speed of light^2)

You're looking for the kinetic energy formula
KE=1/2MV^2

The result is different but still rises more rapidly with velocity than with mass.
 
S&WFan, I thought the reason most people used a .45 is that the shooting games favor using a .45 to be competitive by adding the "power factor" into your score. I don't know the rules to all of the games, but that seems to be a pattern.
 
I have a 1911 & a S&W 625 in .45 ACP/AUto RIm

I have about 400+ in .45 AR
and 300 in .45 ACP, of
Leadhead 200 gr. SWC @ 1,025 FPS
470 ft. lbs
WIn Western 230 gr. SXT JHP @ 50 FPS
461 ftl lbs.

Whatever Ftl Lbs means - both are good
sub-sonic HD/SD loads. Double taps seem
to get easier each time at the range with the
1911 or Wheelgun.

Even if or when I get some 200 gr. Hornady
XTP JHPs loaded to 1,000+ FPS I think
I'll stick with the SXTs.

Didn't JMB first design a 215 gr. FP-FMJ first
then the army wanted it 230 gr. ?
 
The .45 has such a proven track record because it's been around so long? Well so does electricity... I mean compile all the failures of the .45 and it will have the highest failure rate since it was introduced as well.

I own several but more to own.. especially the 1911, they aren't modern, yes they work, but they aren't as "smooth" to shoot.
 
JMB originally wanted a 9mm caliber for his weapon, but the Army shoved that plan down the drain pretty soon.
 
Don't forget you also have to remember what the 45 was designed for, simply...people.

Any given direction you are looking about 24" at most of muscle and bone. With a range of usually less than 30 feet probably closer to 15 in most instances of practical use.

It does not need to be flat shooting. It does not need explosive, massive, lung crushing capabilities of a hunting rifle that you have to get 1 perfectly placed shot and DRT performance. You are simply looking for the target to
"stop" what its doing, whether that is attacking you, chasing you, shooting you, etc.

The bullet must be heavy enough and fast enough, JUST enough to stay on course through the bone that it goes where you aimed at. So if you are aiming at the upper chest you want it to punch through that breast plate and continue its path to the bag o goodies that lies underneath.

Many faster pistol rounds simply cannot accomplish that, they deviate there intended path after striking bone significantly. I won't point fingers as to what calibers but I think you can get the idea pretty quick. Ask yourself about bone penetration, a heavier (even way slower bullet) will come through far more often than the others.

Think about the 45 Colt or even black powder cap and ball very slow round did plenty of killin way before JMB ever thought up the 45 acp. The 45 acp was supposed to I believe duplicate the 45 Colt loads in a smaller higher capacity automatic.

Now if you crank those same bullets up to say a 200 grain at 1400 fps or even a 185 grain up to 1500+ those same bullets will most likely NOT penetrate as well as they tend to "explode" on impact opening and fragmenting rapidly. Hell just talk to someone that has tried using a light bullet with a 300 Win mag under a hundred yards that has shot deer, most of them have had issues with the deer simply taking off! They find that they did not get full penetration and that it may perhaps have only made it through the shoulder into one lung and they had to follow the blood trail for miles.

Now as someone posted earlier, the slow and weak (comparably) 30-30 at closer ranges seems to work quite well with its heavier bullets at lower velocities. (this is turning into a big and slow vs light and fast discussion yet again)

Remember what we are still talking about is handguns. NOT rifles, they are all so similar it's darn near moot point. Go to the extremes though one way or the other like say a 22lr and you will hear NO it's a horrible caliber for SD, not that a few rounds won't kill you any deader than any other though. Or if you start talking about 500 S&W Mag for SD you hear the same thing NO horrible caliber for SD. So obviously the optimal "people stopper is somewhere in between.

The 45 seems to be more effective than most regardless or not if it is a "weak" round. It is a low pressure round yes. And in a time when bullet manufacturing I would have to say was no where near it is today if you had a case blowout or weak gun it would most likely not be devastating. (yes I am stretching hear) but if you look at the main 45 acp pistol, the "original" 1911 was made to handle pressures far above what the 45 acp round could dish out. For a military fighting gun this is optimal, and by todays standards of the uber super light polymer combat pistols of today it's heavy and clunky. I for one still love them, same reason I buy Rugers or other similar over-built revolvers for any round, they can take the punishment.

So what makes a caliber not "weak"? What must its performance do? Let forget about numbers for a second. Do you want it to penetrate the rib cage? Do you want it to blow a softball size hole out the back after it penetrates? Perhaps you wish it to "detonate" inside the chest cavity like a varmint round? Do you want it to fragment, or stay intact? How much expansion is optimal? What about hard object penetration? Windshields? Walls? Doors? Metal? All these things are to be considered. The "weak" 30-30 will still penetrate a 1/4" plate steel within about 25 yards, I've done it. With big old fat, round nosed 150-180 grain bullets.

As posted before, I haven't seen anyone out there hunting elephant with a 300 win mag or anything similar. Yet take an old 45-70 with a big slow flat nosed bullet has taken just about every game known to man. Just as the 45 has taken just about any sized man known to man.

Most military and police rounds are not big and slow anymore. They are light and fast why? Let's examine for a moment. First Police agencies employ both big bear types of guys to little tiny frail women (and some men ;) ) they have big hands and small. Also take into consideration how much they actually practice range time and you have the gun "dumbification" that has happened.

The lowest common denominator. Must work well with low recoil for frail types and be easiest to shoot for those that do not practice often, higher capacity for missed shots and considering that most only carry 2 at most spare mags you can empty them pretty darn quick while not even really trying. Smaller bullets weight less, so less weight for their already heavy load they have to pack around. Take into account that 99% of people being shot at do not continue there attack (most find the nearest escape route), the odds that they actually need to stop the threat by putting them down is slim. So what you have now is most agencies going with a 9mm or 40 caliber. Now if you could find a 45 that did not recoil what the 9mm or 40 does and give anywhere near the same performance even say at 300 ft lbs of energy in a lightweight carry option with more ammo they would jump on it in a heartbeat.

On the military side same similar situations. Here it's a bit different and mostly plays into logistics. You need to be able to wound the target (not kill) carry as many rounds as possible with the least weight in the smallest package, have the longest, flatest trajectory possible, with light recoil. Walla you end up with the .223. Personally I would rather have an M1 Garand with 30-06 any day! But if you told me I had to hike 20 miles a day and had say 5 mags of ammo to keep you in a firefight for a week, I might just take the more ammo, and get that weight off my back!

So unless you need ultra lightweight arms to carry around for days on end without replishment, and the chances of using your gun are slim to none and add up all the other unlikely variables described above, I'd say the 45 is still one hell of a round. If I am going to pack a SD auto it's going to be the good old 45.

Merry Christmas! (For a few more hours anyhow)

Oh, and that was just the first chapter LOL~
 
Have To Disagree

In the blog from BIG BOOMER, it was stated that the .45ACP was not chosen because the law enforcement agencies settled for the lowest common denominator.
I cannot agree. I do not know what your experience has been, but the .40 caliber was adopted by my agency after a LOT OF TESTING and MORE COMBAT EXPERIENCE THAN ALL OTHER FEDERAL AGENCIES.
There was no dumbification here. Just a lot of experience and testing.

The caliber was chosen to get the same results as the .357 magnum in an auto. The BORDER PATROL was the prime mover behind the 155 grain jhp .40 caliber load. The result was a 12 shoot equivalent of .357 magnum. It has performed very well.
Remember, the BORDER PATROL does not expect the bad guy to run away and hide. He frequently fires back, sometimes with an AK-47.

By the way, my agency offered the option of the .45ACP for individual carry before we went to the .40 caliber. I have not heard of any complaints that we are under armed. If the .40 was not as good as it has proven to be, it would be widely known and would be based on field experience.

The U.S. military is again looking at adopting a .45ACP. It has been an on and off process, but the .45ACP will probably replace the 9m.m. The reason is that the military is restricted to non-expanding ammo. This is where the .45ACP has a real advantage.

As long as I can carry hollow points, I do not see any reason to carry a .45.

Just my take on this thread.

Jim
 
"Blend" of power and "shootability" is where the 45 is good.

IMO, looking at the "power factor" calculated by bullet weight X velocity divided by 1,000 gives you some idea/comparison of what's "shootable"...and it varies by individual, gun weight, style, etc, etc but pistol ammo being "weak" anyway, you must be able to fire multiple, accurate shots.

Meaning, you can "hype" up the 45 to 1,000 FPS with a 230 gr. bullet, but that's a "stiff" load IMO for most...230 PF. Hardball can run anywhere from 180-190 PF and some people are not comfortable with that on a consistent basis.
 
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