mnw42
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.45 V .357.... Would you rather be wacked in the head by a baseball bat or an iron pipe? :banghead:
.45 Weak?
- Thread starter Nolo
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razorblade31
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A 45 auto case but about 1.5mm longer, loaded to 35000+ psi is about what the 460 Rowland is. Yes it can be done, but it is impractical as hell for a self defense cartidge. Doubletapping with that kind of power? Only in your pipe dreams. The 45 auto is so anemic because there is no real need to load it hotter for its intended purpose.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The .45 ACP, like the .30-06, has about all the recoil the average man can handle and shoot well. It's right on the border of power and controlability.
I'm probably jumping into this argument too late in the game, so bear with me.
Now listen to me Nolo, you young greenhorn, the .45 caliber has been a proven manstopper for over 150 years now, and the formula has always relied on a big, heavy slug propelled at moderate velocities and it always got the job done just fine. You don't need speeds in excess of 1,000 fps to have an effective round, you just need something that'll hit hard enough and make a big enough hole, and you don't get much bigger than a .45 sized hole in a target when it comes to a defensive handgun.
You often hear how the .45 ACP and 1911 are old and weak and should be retired, but you'll hear about SWAT teams issuing those old and weak platforms when they've got hostage situations because of a lowered risk of overpenetration.
And before you say another dirty word about my next intended caliber purchase, I'd advise you to read these two links: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot28.htm http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36_2.htm
Now listen to me Nolo, you young greenhorn, the .45 caliber has been a proven manstopper for over 150 years now, and the formula has always relied on a big, heavy slug propelled at moderate velocities and it always got the job done just fine. You don't need speeds in excess of 1,000 fps to have an effective round, you just need something that'll hit hard enough and make a big enough hole, and you don't get much bigger than a .45 sized hole in a target when it comes to a defensive handgun.
You often hear how the .45 ACP and 1911 are old and weak and should be retired, but you'll hear about SWAT teams issuing those old and weak platforms when they've got hostage situations because of a lowered risk of overpenetration.
And before you say another dirty word about my next intended caliber purchase, I'd advise you to read these two links: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot28.htm http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36_2.htm
Jeffreii
Member
Allthough i have used the term 'weak-tit popper' to describe this round, try using some momentum calculations instead of just energy. The 45 is designed as a man stopper. Not more. Not less. If you want more, use a different round, or load your 45 up more and modify the recoil spring to handle it. I doubt it will kill much better in its intended purpose, and will most likely just be harder to shoot, and probably less accurate too. Controllability is essential - and the 45 AUTO has enough power to do the job. Most times, (obviously not all) any more velocity would not have done much improvement and only make the weapon less useful (tho more capable)
A human is not all that thick (except for some fat ones!) - a chest is what, one foot? You dont need much penetration. And being a bigger round (though a round nose, used for loading, is not good compared to a big flat meplat) is not needing expansion, whereas the smaller rounds rely on it for completeness.
If you calculate momentum, you would see how big and slow is better than small and fast, and if the bullet is big enough to do the job as is, you dont need any more velocity than is needed to penetrate the intended target, in the 45 AUTO's case, thats a human, and one that is in self defense (close proximity)
For a different approach, try thinking of you, defending yourself from several people, and you using the 45 AUTO or a 45-70. Any more than needed for the job at hand is just a handicap, on average in most situations. Not that you should cut the limits down, but rather have something 'modest' like the 45 AUTO, able to do its job VERY well. Not something barely able to do it, or somehting way overkill (as a standard issue, and even here, if you are 'so good' that you could handle the 45-70, think of how well you would be able to handle the 45, which many already have a harder time with, though they just need a little practice.)
Also note that sometimes an increase in bullet speed LOWERS penetration, especially if the bullet is not designed for the impact velocity. And, if everyone used a 44 mag or such instead of 45's, you would have the dead guy PLUS a casualty or a busted up something or other 50 yards behind the victim. And if the shooter missed....thats a lot more range of deadly power that aint needed.
If anyone doubts the killing power of the 45 AUTO, please feel free to come and visit me and I will let you know FIRST HAND for YOURSELF just how deadly they are Yeah if you miss the target and hit the ground the bullet is just laying there, but if you still think it is too weak, read the sentence before this one.
A human is not all that thick (except for some fat ones!) - a chest is what, one foot? You dont need much penetration. And being a bigger round (though a round nose, used for loading, is not good compared to a big flat meplat) is not needing expansion, whereas the smaller rounds rely on it for completeness.
If you calculate momentum, you would see how big and slow is better than small and fast, and if the bullet is big enough to do the job as is, you dont need any more velocity than is needed to penetrate the intended target, in the 45 AUTO's case, thats a human, and one that is in self defense (close proximity)
For a different approach, try thinking of you, defending yourself from several people, and you using the 45 AUTO or a 45-70. Any more than needed for the job at hand is just a handicap, on average in most situations. Not that you should cut the limits down, but rather have something 'modest' like the 45 AUTO, able to do its job VERY well. Not something barely able to do it, or somehting way overkill (as a standard issue, and even here, if you are 'so good' that you could handle the 45-70, think of how well you would be able to handle the 45, which many already have a harder time with, though they just need a little practice.)
Also note that sometimes an increase in bullet speed LOWERS penetration, especially if the bullet is not designed for the impact velocity. And, if everyone used a 44 mag or such instead of 45's, you would have the dead guy PLUS a casualty or a busted up something or other 50 yards behind the victim. And if the shooter missed....thats a lot more range of deadly power that aint needed.
If anyone doubts the killing power of the 45 AUTO, please feel free to come and visit me and I will let you know FIRST HAND for YOURSELF just how deadly they are Yeah if you miss the target and hit the ground the bullet is just laying there, but if you still think it is too weak, read the sentence before this one.
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Big Boomer
Member
I must make pipe dreams a reality then, if you have never shot a 460 Rowland you would be friggin amazed! I own one. The recoil is more straight back, you can definitely feel the power difference there is no doubt in that, but follow up shots are actually quicker, the built in comp on the barrel works, not only does it work but it works damn good, almost too good. There is about 50% of the muzzle flip of the 45 acp in the same gun.
Now, is that round a better man stopper? It has the energy of a 44 Magnum, but as there are no bullets designed specifically for it a 185 gr pill moving at 1500+ fps will most likely fragment, come up short in penetration and not be as effective. I also own a 460 mag and there ARE bullets specifically designed for the high velocity, the jacket is about 2.5 times the thickness of the standard .452 JHP.
If there were bullets designed for it, It would actually be a pretty good man stopper. I actually built it for carry, but have rethought it, as stated before, the bullet design just comes up short.
OhioPaints
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Vern,
You have been shooting the wrong gun! In a Sig P220, which is a .45, the recoil is very mild, much like a 9mm. My brother in law made the same comment when he got his, and he was shooting a 9mm Sig 226 (same size gun) before he got the 220.
Even in a lighweight, compact Kimber the recoil is not extreme.
Ken
Laplace's Law
I haven't read all the posts, but I haven't seen anyone discussing Laplace's Law, yet.
Laplace's Law states that the pressure exerted on the wall of a pipe is proportional to the square of the diameter. Thus, to contain the same pressure in a larger diameter round, you will have to reinforce it to a greater degree.
The converse is, the larger the diameter of the bullet, the less pressure it takes to get it moving, because it's acting on a larger surface.
Short fat cartridges will tend to be more practical at lower pressures.
I haven't read all the posts, but I haven't seen anyone discussing Laplace's Law, yet.
Laplace's Law states that the pressure exerted on the wall of a pipe is proportional to the square of the diameter. Thus, to contain the same pressure in a larger diameter round, you will have to reinforce it to a greater degree.
The converse is, the larger the diameter of the bullet, the less pressure it takes to get it moving, because it's acting on a larger surface.
Short fat cartridges will tend to be more practical at lower pressures.
Timthinker
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Let me add a note of caution here. There are cases of men taking multiple hits from "manstopper" rounds such as .45 acps, .357 Magnums and 12 gauge shotgun blasts. The point is no round is like a Star Trek phaser unless it damages the brain or spinal cord. Now, would I prefer a .45 (Long) Colt or .45acp to a .32? Yes, but these larger rounds are not magic bullets unless they penetrate the areas I listed. This does not mean I am not a fan a big bore bullets, but I think we need to be honest in looking at what rounds do and do not do.
Timthinker
Timthinker
DHart
Member
All things considered...? Hit where it counts... MULTIPLE TIMES!!!!
Beyond that, yes, balance and compromise are what it's ALL about! Today's .45 acp caliber with 230 gr. Gold Dots, et al, are the near ideal compromise of bore diameter, bullet weight, velocity, energy, capacity, recoil impulse, return to target, pressure, penetration, and expansion in human targets. Of course you can always boost velocity, bore, energy, pressure, etc. But the important point here is that the "sweet spot" is all about the compromise of a number of important and competing elements.
.45 acp has proven itself, with refinements of JHP bullet design, to yield an ideal compromise with regard to ideal penetration, expansion, and controllability from modern handguns in human targets for remarkably effective terminal performance. People can always argue for greater velocity, greater energy, greater pressure, greater momentum, yada yada... but today's .45 acp performance with current bullet designs from modern handguns in the human defense arena is close to ideal. Differences in energy, momemtum etc. are less important than the combination of penetration, expansion, and overall shootability of the caliber/load.
The perfect compromise... it's what winning is all about. Today's best .45 acp loads and best handguns are about as good as it gets, all things considered, when it comes to defending yourself. .40 caliber is a very close second, with 9mm 124 gr. +P right in there as well. Hit right with any of these, especially multiple times, and you are likely to prevail.
My choice for carry duty? Glock 30.
Beyond that, yes, balance and compromise are what it's ALL about! Today's .45 acp caliber with 230 gr. Gold Dots, et al, are the near ideal compromise of bore diameter, bullet weight, velocity, energy, capacity, recoil impulse, return to target, pressure, penetration, and expansion in human targets. Of course you can always boost velocity, bore, energy, pressure, etc. But the important point here is that the "sweet spot" is all about the compromise of a number of important and competing elements.
.45 acp has proven itself, with refinements of JHP bullet design, to yield an ideal compromise with regard to ideal penetration, expansion, and controllability from modern handguns in human targets for remarkably effective terminal performance. People can always argue for greater velocity, greater energy, greater pressure, greater momentum, yada yada... but today's .45 acp performance with current bullet designs from modern handguns in the human defense arena is close to ideal. Differences in energy, momemtum etc. are less important than the combination of penetration, expansion, and overall shootability of the caliber/load.
The perfect compromise... it's what winning is all about. Today's best .45 acp loads and best handguns are about as good as it gets, all things considered, when it comes to defending yourself. .40 caliber is a very close second, with 9mm 124 gr. +P right in there as well. Hit right with any of these, especially multiple times, and you are likely to prevail.
My choice for carry duty? Glock 30.
Vern Humphrey
Member
How much of that can you shoot in a street confrontation without ear plugs"
I said, "HOW MUCH OF THAT CAN YOU SHOOT WITHOUT EAR PLUGS?"
I SAID, "HOW MUCH . . . " oh, forget it.
76shuvlinoff
Member
Good point, I have a ported 3.5" Springfield .45 hiding in the safe and without ear muffs it'll make grow men whimper. It's like (I would guess) getting a red hot screwdriver in ear... both of em.
Vern Humphrey
Member
A single cylinderfull of .357s without ear plugs from my Colt .357 left me with measurable hearing loss.
How many rounds a guy can tolerate can depend upon how well the weapon fits the hands. I find a SIG P229 to be very gentle, even with the livelier .40 ammo. A Ruger SP101 is not as comfortable to shoot with a given load as a GP100, yet the GP100 will split the skin on the web of my hand sooner. The GP100 will not hurt me while doing this, so I have to be watchful. With a 1911, it depends on the grip safety. My stock Colt Classic Government Model would eat me up in an extended shooting session, while a Les Baer is easy on my hands, and Kimbers were somewhere in the middle. FWIW, I have equal confidence in the .357, .40, and .45, assuming good premium ammo. I shoot the GP100 best at longer ranges with aimed fire as well as while point-shooting at closer ranges, but my duty P229 does well enough at close and medium range, pointed or aimed. Some would call this fence-sittin'. I say there is no fence here, but this nice low wall is a comfortable place to sit, with one foot on each side.
Constantine-p89
Member
Jeffreii
Member
Yeah even though the 45 is subsonic they still make a nice loud pop. But in the times of real 'combat' you dont hear a thing, just like shootin a deer. Dont hear or feel a thing.
Oooo some physics! You got it right there in concept and it is easily seen in the energy being the same yet the pressures drastically different. Lower pressure for same job is always nicer unless you want same power in a smaller package.
here are a comparison of momentum/energy - BOTH are able to do their job as self defense. Note how the 45 has less energy but more momentum.
so as you can see, the 45 at its 'weak' pressure is still, in terms of momentum over and in terms of energy about the same, as the 'non weak' pressure. You cant just go by pressure. And you dont need any more in the 45 AUTO for it to do its job, and accurate with large bore small charge is an added plus. Since the 45 is for self defense, that is why it is loaded the way it is. Use a 454 Casull or 460S&W if you like high pressure 45's.
Oooo some physics! You got it right there in concept and it is easily seen in the energy being the same yet the pressures drastically different. Lower pressure for same job is always nicer unless you want same power in a smaller package.
here are a comparison of momentum/energy - BOTH are able to do their job as self defense. Note how the 45 has less energy but more momentum.
Code:
45 AUTO
230gr @ 850 fps = 0.868 lb/sec
= 368 ft/lb
9 WeenieMeter
124gr @ 1200 fps = 0.661 lb/sec
= 396 ft/lbso as you can see, the 45 at its 'weak' pressure is still, in terms of momentum over and in terms of energy about the same, as the 'non weak' pressure. You cant just go by pressure. And you dont need any more in the 45 AUTO for it to do its job, and accurate with large bore small charge is an added plus. Since the 45 is for self defense, that is why it is loaded the way it is. Use a 454 Casull or 460S&W if you like high pressure 45's.
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klover
Member
I am so glad to have it all cleared up for me.
Somehow I knew that .357 Sig AND .45 acp were the only side arm calibers I would ever need in an urban setting.
And .44 magnum or .500 S&W for woods makes some sense.
What a great thread.
Somehow I knew that .357 Sig AND .45 acp were the only side arm calibers I would ever need in an urban setting.
And .44 magnum or .500 S&W for woods makes some sense.
What a great thread.
Spyvie
Member
I once made the mistake of firing a full house .357 load in my 2” SP101 outdoors without earplugs... Never again!
I can't imagine firing it indoors in a defensive situation without hearing protection, it would be like setting off a stun grenade, everyone in the room would suffer.
mr.trooper
Member
Kinetic energy has little to do with penetration in a hangun. Momentum is a much better indicator.
For example: For deer hunting, a 30-06 hollow point and a hard cast .44 magnum with penetrate about the same. they will both occasionally go clean though a deer. how can this be? The 30-06 has over 3 times the kinetic energy being applied to a smaller surface area? Momentum. While kinetic energy on the 30-06 may be 3 times higher, the momentum is almost identical between the two.
Kinetic energy = Mass * Velocity ^2
Momentum = Mass * velocity.
kinetic energy favors velocity. Momentum sets mass and velocity as equal contributors. Rifles rely on velocity to do their damage; thats why Kinetic energy is used to judge their effectiveness. Pistols on the other hand, are almost all sub-sonic cartridges. As such, they can not and do not rely on velocity to impart damage. This makes Momentum a more fitting judge of effectiveness.
When you use Kinetic Energy to judge the effectiveness of a pistol cartridge, you are essentially judging it by the standard of rifles. Thats apples to oranges, and that doesn't work.
For example: For deer hunting, a 30-06 hollow point and a hard cast .44 magnum with penetrate about the same. they will both occasionally go clean though a deer. how can this be? The 30-06 has over 3 times the kinetic energy being applied to a smaller surface area? Momentum. While kinetic energy on the 30-06 may be 3 times higher, the momentum is almost identical between the two.
Kinetic energy = Mass * Velocity ^2
Momentum = Mass * velocity.
kinetic energy favors velocity. Momentum sets mass and velocity as equal contributors. Rifles rely on velocity to do their damage; thats why Kinetic energy is used to judge their effectiveness. Pistols on the other hand, are almost all sub-sonic cartridges. As such, they can not and do not rely on velocity to impart damage. This makes Momentum a more fitting judge of effectiveness.
When you use Kinetic Energy to judge the effectiveness of a pistol cartridge, you are essentially judging it by the standard of rifles. Thats apples to oranges, and that doesn't work.
DHart
Member
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 Mass * Velocity^2
mnw42
Member
Objects in motion stay in motion....
Bigger objects do it better
I think that comparing fatigue between .45 and .357 could be done in a fairly scientific and meaningful way; S&W makes 4", similarly configured N frames in both chamberings.
I believe, that that reason the 125gr HP .357 is so effective is due to the bullet traveling fast enough too expand most of the time, under most conditions, and thusly efficiently dumping it's energy into the target. The .45 does not need to be traveling as fast to be as effective due to the larger mass and diameter of the projectile.
The momentum theory that Jeffreii posted is probably one of the most important factors.
Additionally, the reference to Laplace's Law that GLOOB posted nicely explains the efficacy of the .45 cartridge. Higher pressures leads to sharper recoil, more noise, and muzzle blast. I should have thought of that....damn beer and TV.
Bigger objects do it better
I think that comparing fatigue between .45 and .357 could be done in a fairly scientific and meaningful way; S&W makes 4", similarly configured N frames in both chamberings.
I believe, that that reason the 125gr HP .357 is so effective is due to the bullet traveling fast enough too expand most of the time, under most conditions, and thusly efficiently dumping it's energy into the target. The .45 does not need to be traveling as fast to be as effective due to the larger mass and diameter of the projectile.
The momentum theory that Jeffreii posted is probably one of the most important factors.
Additionally, the reference to Laplace's Law that GLOOB posted nicely explains the efficacy of the .45 cartridge. Higher pressures leads to sharper recoil, more noise, and muzzle blast. I should have thought of that....damn beer and TV.
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