.45 Weak?
- Thread starter Nolo
- Start date
- Status
berkbw
Member
FINALLY!! someone who is farther out than I.
DHart
Member
Absolutely. And in the meantime, .45 acp (and .40S&W) are about as good as it gets for a personal defense handgun caliber... just the right balance of power yielding good penetration, good expansion, reasonable controllability, and decent capacity (more than decent with .40).
That said... put those buggers where they need to go or they won't do ya any good!
Last edited:
sammoh
Member
Not to toot my own horn but I can shoot my Taurus M44 just as quickly as I can my 1911s. The only thing is while shooting DA from the revolver, the trigger pull is a little longer and in my inexperienced hands, the long pull causes me to shoot a bit low and to the left compared to shooting SA with the same gun.
What does this mean? At 15 yds, I can put 7 rounds of .45acp into a 4 inch circle quickly, I've never timed it but I'd be safe in saying a couple of seconds or a few at most. I can do the roughly the same with my M44 the 4 inch circle becomes a 6 inch circle now and with only 6 rounds... sometimes 8 if I'm particularly off that day. Same amount of time though.
Anyway, ideally, I'd choose the .44mag in a JHP for self defense but the report of the .44mag is horrendous. I would think I'd make my kids dirty their pants and scare my neighbors half to death with just the sound of the gun. Second, I think I'd go deaf if I had to shoot the thing in doors without ear protection. Just so I knew what the thing sounded like, I shot it in an open field into a steel plate with a sand berm... without ear protection. 6 rounds later, my ears were ringing and hurting.
The .45acp becomes my choice then if I'm going to use it for self defense in the home. Of course, my mossberg 12ga. pump loaded with 00 buck would be the first choice. 5 rounds of that and if the bg is still coming, I'm going to empty my .45 into it. Then if the bg still keeps coming, I'm going to pray to god and hope my wife and kids got out of the house like I taught them to because whatever I shot at isn't earthly... and I'm going to die.
What does this mean? At 15 yds, I can put 7 rounds of .45acp into a 4 inch circle quickly, I've never timed it but I'd be safe in saying a couple of seconds or a few at most. I can do the roughly the same with my M44 the 4 inch circle becomes a 6 inch circle now and with only 6 rounds... sometimes 8 if I'm particularly off that day. Same amount of time though.
Anyway, ideally, I'd choose the .44mag in a JHP for self defense but the report of the .44mag is horrendous. I would think I'd make my kids dirty their pants and scare my neighbors half to death with just the sound of the gun. Second, I think I'd go deaf if I had to shoot the thing in doors without ear protection. Just so I knew what the thing sounded like, I shot it in an open field into a steel plate with a sand berm... without ear protection. 6 rounds later, my ears were ringing and hurting.
The .45acp becomes my choice then if I'm going to use it for self defense in the home. Of course, my mossberg 12ga. pump loaded with 00 buck would be the first choice. 5 rounds of that and if the bg is still coming, I'm going to empty my .45 into it. Then if the bg still keeps coming, I'm going to pray to god and hope my wife and kids got out of the house like I taught them to because whatever I shot at isn't earthly... and I'm going to die.
mr.trooper
Member
dhart said:
TOO right. silly mistake on my part.
OhioPaints
Member
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2005
- Messages
- 138
I agree, it is very valuable reading. My take away is that penetration is the most important factor. If you don't penetrate deep enough to hit something vital, then the round is not very effective, especially for quick stops. Is that your read from the article, Durham68?
That's why I think hollow points are a waste of money (at a minimum) on the smaller calibers like .32 and .380. On more powerful calibers, penetration is still the most critical although expanding rounds are good as long as they still penetrate deep enough.
Ken
DHart
Member
brickeyee.... now we're really talkin'! Good call! ;-) Let's get out our slide rules... errr.... calculators! ;-)
I agree and carry hollow points in my 1911 and FMJs in the P3AT. The article makes it clear that penetration is #1 and bullet diameter #2. If the bullet is capable of penetrating sufficiently to cause an exit wound (or close to it), additional velocity would be a waste. Pistol cartridges just don't have the velocity to cause a temporary cavity large enough to cause additional tissue damage like a rifle cartridge.
RobertFBurnett
Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2007
- Messages
- 415
Never ceases to amaze me how one simple question can turn into a heated 6 page thread!
Strength is so relative, I really am not a good shot with my .45, but rock w/ .357Magnums.
If it comes down to it for me, my .45 is for paper, my 12 Gauge w/ buckshot is for the BG.
Strength is so relative, I really am not a good shot with my .45, but rock w/ .357Magnums.
If it comes down to it for me, my .45 is for paper, my 12 Gauge w/ buckshot is for the BG.
76shuvlinoff
Member
appoligies
Last edited:
FBI report
I finished reading the FBI report last night and have some issues with it and with Dr. FACKLER again.
The FBI produced this report in the aftermath of the MIAMI MASSACRE. A gunfight in which 8 FBI agents engaged two heavily armed bank robbers. They killed the bank robbers, but lost several agents and had 2 or 3 others maimed. It was a fiasco and they were roundly chided by police and private trainers for the poor tactics they used. One agent actually never fired a shot because he could not find his gun.
Afterwards, they convened a research panel with Dr. FACKLER being the most prominent member. He agreed with the FBI’s conclusion that it was all the fault of one 9m.m. bullet not penetrating sufficiently and Evan MARSHALL publicly stated that it was bad tactics.
Guess whom the FBI worships after that?
Dr. FACKLER is the hero and MARSHALL is the prince of darkness. A bureaucracy is a terrible thing to deal with when you point out that is has flaws.
The only other study by a federal agency of the stopping power issue was conducted by the now disbanded I&NS. The BORDER PATROL which has a lot of experience at gun-fighting lead the effort and adopted the .155 grain JHP round as a replacement for the .357 magnum125 grain JHP ammo they had been using.
They wanted the same stopping power in a semi-automatic handgun. Experience in the field has shown that they achieved their goal.
Since this round expands rapidly and does not penetrate deeply, why does it work so well if the FBI said penetration is the key?
Dr. FACKLER was quoted as saying that it would take 3 days for a person to die from a GLASER Safety Bullet hit. That is irrelevant to the issue of stopping power. I do not care if a person will die instantly, in 3 days or never. I want the person to cease and desist what they are doing. If they do, that is the end of it.
GLASER Safety Slugs have proven to disable an assailant very quickly. So who cares if they die 3 days later?
The report struck me as self-serving. It constantly harped on penetration as the most important factor in stopping power. If that were true, then the 9m.m. military loads with there often, excessive penetration would be the undisputed stopping power champ. They are not.
The present fighting in AFGHANISTAN and IRAQ have again proven this. Just as there were repeated complaints about the poor stopping power of the 9m.m. in the first IRAQ war, they are now being repeated.
It has become such a serious issue that the DOD started a competition for a new handgun, which was to be in a larger caliber than the 9m.m. Unfortunately, the acquisition has been dropped for budget reasons.
The FBI also supported the 180 grain .40 caliber MID RANGE load in the 10 m.m. auto round and the 147 grain load in the 9m.m. Neither of these rounds has proven as effective the 155 grain .40 SMITH&WESSON round or the 115 and 124 grain 9m.m. +P/+P+ ammunition.
Again, if penetration is so important, why is .357 magnum load using a 125 grain jacketed hollow point so effective in the field? It was proven over and over again, by state police agencies and by the U.S. Border Patrol as the most effective handgun caliber prior to the mid-1990’s.
It is noted for rarely over-penetrating in the field.
I would also like to know, why Dr. FACKLER, the FBI or anyone else who criticizes MARSHALL and SANOW for their unscientific methods, has not just proven them wrong.
All they have to do is track the results of police gunfights and publish their criteria, but they never do. The FBI releases data on crimes every year. Why not list the results of police shooting with the round used and broken down by caliber, bullet type and velocity.
The sheer size of the database would eliminate any statistical anomalies.
Just my opinion.
Jim
I finished reading the FBI report last night and have some issues with it and with Dr. FACKLER again.
The FBI produced this report in the aftermath of the MIAMI MASSACRE. A gunfight in which 8 FBI agents engaged two heavily armed bank robbers. They killed the bank robbers, but lost several agents and had 2 or 3 others maimed. It was a fiasco and they were roundly chided by police and private trainers for the poor tactics they used. One agent actually never fired a shot because he could not find his gun.
Afterwards, they convened a research panel with Dr. FACKLER being the most prominent member. He agreed with the FBI’s conclusion that it was all the fault of one 9m.m. bullet not penetrating sufficiently and Evan MARSHALL publicly stated that it was bad tactics.
Guess whom the FBI worships after that?
Dr. FACKLER is the hero and MARSHALL is the prince of darkness. A bureaucracy is a terrible thing to deal with when you point out that is has flaws.
The only other study by a federal agency of the stopping power issue was conducted by the now disbanded I&NS. The BORDER PATROL which has a lot of experience at gun-fighting lead the effort and adopted the .155 grain JHP round as a replacement for the .357 magnum125 grain JHP ammo they had been using.
They wanted the same stopping power in a semi-automatic handgun. Experience in the field has shown that they achieved their goal.
Since this round expands rapidly and does not penetrate deeply, why does it work so well if the FBI said penetration is the key?
Dr. FACKLER was quoted as saying that it would take 3 days for a person to die from a GLASER Safety Bullet hit. That is irrelevant to the issue of stopping power. I do not care if a person will die instantly, in 3 days or never. I want the person to cease and desist what they are doing. If they do, that is the end of it.
GLASER Safety Slugs have proven to disable an assailant very quickly. So who cares if they die 3 days later?
The report struck me as self-serving. It constantly harped on penetration as the most important factor in stopping power. If that were true, then the 9m.m. military loads with there often, excessive penetration would be the undisputed stopping power champ. They are not.
The present fighting in AFGHANISTAN and IRAQ have again proven this. Just as there were repeated complaints about the poor stopping power of the 9m.m. in the first IRAQ war, they are now being repeated.
It has become such a serious issue that the DOD started a competition for a new handgun, which was to be in a larger caliber than the 9m.m. Unfortunately, the acquisition has been dropped for budget reasons.
The FBI also supported the 180 grain .40 caliber MID RANGE load in the 10 m.m. auto round and the 147 grain load in the 9m.m. Neither of these rounds has proven as effective the 155 grain .40 SMITH&WESSON round or the 115 and 124 grain 9m.m. +P/+P+ ammunition.
Again, if penetration is so important, why is .357 magnum load using a 125 grain jacketed hollow point so effective in the field? It was proven over and over again, by state police agencies and by the U.S. Border Patrol as the most effective handgun caliber prior to the mid-1990’s.
It is noted for rarely over-penetrating in the field.
I would also like to know, why Dr. FACKLER, the FBI or anyone else who criticizes MARSHALL and SANOW for their unscientific methods, has not just proven them wrong.
All they have to do is track the results of police gunfights and publish their criteria, but they never do. The FBI releases data on crimes every year. Why not list the results of police shooting with the round used and broken down by caliber, bullet type and velocity.
The sheer size of the database would eliminate any statistical anomalies.
Just my opinion.
Jim
Big Boomer
Member
Just dropping in to see how the war, um *cough, cough* thread is er um doing
Do we have a winner yet?
Do we have a winner yet?
Last edited:
OhioPaints
Member
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2005
- Messages
- 138
Golden,
Do you take issue with the concept that a "quick stop" requires hitting something vital, such as a major artery (heart included) or the central nervous system? Assuming a frontal shot, doesn't that take deep penetration?
Major blood vessels and the spine are not reachable with shallow penetration, right? Especially if the round has to go through an arm, a heavy coat (most of us are in winter right now), or is at an angle. Plus, bone (a rib) will probably slow down a round unless one gets lucky and gets right between ribs.
To me, it makes intuitive sense that deep penetration is the #1 criteria. Of course, if a round expands and penetrates deeply, then it is more likely to reach and interrupt something vital.
We can debate 125/147/158/180/230 forever and there may not be good enough data to prove any one is best since shot placement is so critical.
But in my mind, wanting expansion in the lower powered rounds (.32, .380) is wrong since the rounds are not likely to penetrate deep enough even if they don't expand, and will penetrate less if they do.
Of course, a .44 Magnum will expand and penetrate and will be effective with proper shot placement. Beyond that, the 9/357/40/10/45 are less clear although the 357 does has a long established history as one of the more effective rounds.
Ken
Do you take issue with the concept that a "quick stop" requires hitting something vital, such as a major artery (heart included) or the central nervous system? Assuming a frontal shot, doesn't that take deep penetration?
Major blood vessels and the spine are not reachable with shallow penetration, right? Especially if the round has to go through an arm, a heavy coat (most of us are in winter right now), or is at an angle. Plus, bone (a rib) will probably slow down a round unless one gets lucky and gets right between ribs.
To me, it makes intuitive sense that deep penetration is the #1 criteria. Of course, if a round expands and penetrates deeply, then it is more likely to reach and interrupt something vital.
We can debate 125/147/158/180/230 forever and there may not be good enough data to prove any one is best since shot placement is so critical.
But in my mind, wanting expansion in the lower powered rounds (.32, .380) is wrong since the rounds are not likely to penetrate deep enough even if they don't expand, and will penetrate less if they do.
Of course, a .44 Magnum will expand and penetrate and will be effective with proper shot placement. Beyond that, the 9/357/40/10/45 are less clear although the 357 does has a long established history as one of the more effective rounds.
Ken
mpmarty
Member
Folks, that FBI report is nearly twenty years old. Give it a proper burial and look at the folks that are shooting and yes, unfortunately dying over in IRAQ and Afghanistan and see what they have to say about the super duper penetration of the 9mm and how great a stopper it is. Pistols are poor weapons to begin with and using the larger diameter and greater weight of the 45 just makes sense no matter how you slice and dice it when forced to use hardball ammo. Perhaps if +p+ hollow points were used in the M9s it would be different but that is not what's happening over there and we can draw no conclusions based on "what if". The bottom line is to use less than .45acp in military applications with hardball is just needlessly handicapping our guys over there.
Define Shallow Penetration
OHIO PAINTS,
I think the 12 to 15 inch penetration of the 9m.m. +P and +P+ along with the 155 grain .40 caliber hollow points has proven itself on the street. The FBI criteria of at least 18 inches has not.
The heavy 9m.m bullet has not proven itself to be any better or even as good as the lighter bullets with less penetration.
The human body is much to complex to simply say that I need to nick an artery or organ to stop my opponent.
I go with what has proven the most effective.
Intuitively, it strikes me that the bullet-ammo combination is the one that comes closest to the .357 magnum 125 grain hollow point. It has a proven record on the street.
I do not dispute the stopping power of a .45ACP round using a good hollow point like the HYDRO SHOK. It is the balanced expansion and lack of overpenetration that makes it work in my opinion. I kept them in my house gun for many years.
To penetrate deeply you need energy. To get expansion and penetration takes more energy. That translates into recoil. While +P .45ACP rounds have been available for over a decade, they have only limited popularity. RECOIL IS THE REASON.
You also give up magazine capacity and shot recovery time when using a heavier recoiling round like the .45ACP. It may not be a big deal to people who will ONLY USE 1911 TYPE PISTOL, but I am not that limited in my choice of handgun.
MPMARTY, I think you missed my point. When using ball ammo, the 9m.m. loses out. It penetrates TOO DEEPLY and does not do enough damage along the way. USING BALL, THE .45ACP has the best proven record.
I DO NOT INTEND TO USE BALL. MY LIFE IS TOO IMPORTANT TO ME TO RISK IT.
Jim
OHIO PAINTS,
I think the 12 to 15 inch penetration of the 9m.m. +P and +P+ along with the 155 grain .40 caliber hollow points has proven itself on the street. The FBI criteria of at least 18 inches has not.
The heavy 9m.m bullet has not proven itself to be any better or even as good as the lighter bullets with less penetration.
The human body is much to complex to simply say that I need to nick an artery or organ to stop my opponent.
I go with what has proven the most effective.
Intuitively, it strikes me that the bullet-ammo combination is the one that comes closest to the .357 magnum 125 grain hollow point. It has a proven record on the street.
I do not dispute the stopping power of a .45ACP round using a good hollow point like the HYDRO SHOK. It is the balanced expansion and lack of overpenetration that makes it work in my opinion. I kept them in my house gun for many years.
To penetrate deeply you need energy. To get expansion and penetration takes more energy. That translates into recoil. While +P .45ACP rounds have been available for over a decade, they have only limited popularity. RECOIL IS THE REASON.
You also give up magazine capacity and shot recovery time when using a heavier recoiling round like the .45ACP. It may not be a big deal to people who will ONLY USE 1911 TYPE PISTOL, but I am not that limited in my choice of handgun.
MPMARTY, I think you missed my point. When using ball ammo, the 9m.m. loses out. It penetrates TOO DEEPLY and does not do enough damage along the way. USING BALL, THE .45ACP has the best proven record.
I DO NOT INTEND TO USE BALL. MY LIFE IS TOO IMPORTANT TO ME TO RISK IT.
Jim
Agree or disagree with this statement..... Basic physics.... for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. With this in mind, notice the difference in felt recoil in similar style pistols..... A full size 1911 in 45 acp has much more felt recoil than the same pistol in 9mm. If it hits harder on my end, I bet it hits harder on the other end as well. I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on TV 
Big Boomer
Member
metplat people, metplat! Oh and momentum! Think 45/70 only shorter The biggest problem with the FBI report is the fact it is so totally and universally misread. The report places emphasis on penetration as the most important factor in stopping power because it gives the greatest chance of striking something vital. They also defined striking something vital, like the spine or brain as the only RELIABLE means of stopping power. Example: Shoot someone in the brain, he'll stop, pretty reliably. The report did not state there were no other factors to stopping power only that the other factors could not me relied on the same way a central nervous system hit could be and they should be treated secondary to penetration as a factor to stopping power. The repost also stated the other factors should also be taken into consideration because if they give you a 1% better chance of survival than that 1% may be the one that saves your life! So many people read the report and say NOTHING matters but penetration. If that was true than the FBI would carry 9mm ball. It has the most penetration and it is the least effected by barriers but this is not the case. The fact of the matter is in the FBIs own tests it was fast, high energy rounds like the 115gr Winchester Rangers and full power, light weight 10mm that had the best results. Many other light and fast rounds performed well but suffered the same effects of high muzzle blast and recoil. They felt they recoiled too much for the average person and thought the midrange 10mm loads had good performance after barrier while still having reasonable recoil. They never have explained why ammo that doesn't meet their criteria still continues to prove itself as strong performers nor have they ever been able to show that the heavier, deep penetrating rounds are superior to them. The end result is it did push manufacturers to develop ammo that would expand aggressively while still driving deeply which in lighter ammo gives us the best of both world. I think the current loads like the 155gr 40 caliber loads with high energy, large expanding hollow points, AND deep penetration are a super choice. The FBI brought around the advent of the Gold Dots, DPX, and other technology we wouldn't have explored were it not for their work do so I applaud them for that.
Last edited:
What The Fbi Did Push
The FBI report has pushed penetration to the detriment of expansion. The publicity from the FBI'S conclusions was the prime mover behind the "SUBSONIC" ammo craze a decade ago. Remember those. WINCHESTER even had a line of SUBSONIC pistol ammo (by the way, this was pretty good ammo when I tried it).
The problem was it pointed the industry away from better choices. For a number of years, +P and +P+ 9 m.m. ammo was very hard to get. Now it is pretty much available everywhere and at reasonable prices.
The FBI report also pushed the .40 caliber 180 grain JHP. This load at best will equal the 185 grain light bullets used in the .45ACP. Street results point to better performance with heavier bullets in the .45ACP and faster, lighter bullets in .40 caliber and smaller. The report did not improve the denfensive ammo state of the art.
The FBI research and the comments by people like Dr. FACKLER have led people in the wrong direction in choosing defensive ammo. That, I think was the single worst part of their work!
The FBI report has pushed penetration to the detriment of expansion. The publicity from the FBI'S conclusions was the prime mover behind the "SUBSONIC" ammo craze a decade ago. Remember those. WINCHESTER even had a line of SUBSONIC pistol ammo (by the way, this was pretty good ammo when I tried it).
The problem was it pointed the industry away from better choices. For a number of years, +P and +P+ 9 m.m. ammo was very hard to get. Now it is pretty much available everywhere and at reasonable prices.
The FBI report also pushed the .40 caliber 180 grain JHP. This load at best will equal the 185 grain light bullets used in the .45ACP. Street results point to better performance with heavier bullets in the .45ACP and faster, lighter bullets in .40 caliber and smaller. The report did not improve the denfensive ammo state of the art.
The FBI research and the comments by people like Dr. FACKLER have led people in the wrong direction in choosing defensive ammo. That, I think was the single worst part of their work!
- Status
