45acp or 10mm For Hiking Carry?

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WrongHanded said:
I think, on balance, with appropriate bullets, it would be very close. And would largely depend one what a person could safely get out of a given cartridge in a given gun. And also, where we'd draw the line in terms of pressure. Because we know it's possible to take .45acp above and beyond +P and into Super territory, but then we're considering gun modifications of one sort or another.
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I may be showing my big bore bias but I think the .460Rowland deserves more attention. With a comp, they're softer shooting than any 10mm.


Buzznrose said:
I think folks get pretty wrapped up with ballistics over reality. I like 10MM, but I also like .40, .45, .357 mag, .41 mag, .44 spl and mag, and .45LC. In a gun I’m confident with and proper ammo, I’d be pretty comfortable with any of them most places.
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It depends. For most people, it really doesn't matter as far as terminal ballistics. Especially for those folks who never use a sidearm in the field. It's only really going to come into play with larger, more dangerous critters that most people are not going to encounter. Which is why I will be found in the woods with a .22LR more often than not.
 
CraigC said:
I may be showing my big bore bias but I think the .460Rowland deserves more attention. With a comp, they're softer shooting than any 10mm.
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I don't know about that. I mean, I really don't know, because I've never shot a .460 Rowland. :D

I think the reason it (and the .45 Super) don't get much attention, is the same reason I just bought a 10mm. Some people don't want to make modifications and do a bunch of load workup for a trail gun. Many people wouldn't even understand the concept of doing such.
 
UrbanHermit said:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wi...ls-charging-brown-bear-with-a-9mm-pistol/amp/

9mm semiautomatic pistol, heavy cast bullets with flat sharp-edged metplats, focus controlled rapid fire at the head and spine. That's the best way to fight any animal from cougars to grizzlies. This will give you the highest probability of survival in the absence of a safari rifle.

Shot placement is the only way to kill something that large before it kills you. A bear with 6 44 Magnum slugs in his lungs can still rip your head off before he bleeds to death. He isn't going to have an existential crises upon realizing he's been shot, lay down on the ground, and hope that an ambulance and a surgeon can undo the mistake he made by attacking you (this is the "one stop shot" phenomenon). I would feel the most comfortable with a weapon that I am extremely familiar and competent with rather than one that is more powerful but that I don't train with nearly as much. I can sling 9mms into beer cans at 25 yards all day with my Glock 19 without hardly using the sights because I do it every day. 9mm solids can penetrate the skull of anything smaller than an elephant.

Change my mind.
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So the story about a careless and complacent 30 plus year Alaskan guide who willfully chose a 9mm pistol has you sold on 9mm? lol

Did you happen to add up how many shots it took him? You ever read accounts where people get off a shot after they are being flailed around by the bear or while being chewed on? Ever hear how sneaky a grizzly can be? Did you read how the bear practically posed for him at one point? And lucky for him, the bear headed towards his clients. There is so much wrong with this story and somehow someway someone romanticized this disgraceful act of complacency into some super hero story. Amazing.
 
armydog said:
So the story about a careless and complacent 30 plus year Alaskan guide who willfully chose a 9mm pistol has you sold on 9mm? lol

Did you happen to add up how many shots it took him? You ever read accounts where people get off a shot after they are being flailed around by the bear or while being chewed on? Ever hear how sneaky a grizzly can be? Did you read how the bear practically posed for him at one point? And lucky for him, the bear headed towards his clients. There is so much wrong with this story and somehow someway someone romanticized this disgraceful act of complacency into some super hero story. Amazing.
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I won’t disagree with much of what you said, but one fact you didn’t mention was the fact that, in my opinion, his best move was choosing arguably the best round possible for his carry gun, a +P 147 grain flat nose hard cast.

Luck…Guardian Angel…calm demeanor; regardless how he did it, he did protect his clients.
 
Buzznrose said:
I won’t disagree with much of what you said, but one fact you didn’t mention was the fact that, in my opinion, his best move was choosing arguably the best round possible for his carry gun, a +P 147 grain flat nose hard cast.

Luck…Guardian Angel…calm demeanor; regardless how he did it, he did protect his clients.
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I agree that the BB ammo is the best 9mm hardcast... at least that I know of. I carry it in NC/VA mountains. I probably have 20+ 20rd boxes. I still wouldn't rely on it up north with moose. I have been up close and personal with brown bear. And I would never in my wildest nightmares choose a 9mm, even the BB Outdoorsman. Grizzly and moose have me packing more than 9mm. Never had to shoot either and don't want to.
 
Buzznrose said:
I won’t disagree with much of what you said, but one fact you didn’t mention was the fact that, in my opinion, his best move was choosing arguably the best round possible for his carry gun, a +P 147 grain flat nose hard cast.

Luck…Guardian Angel…calm demeanor; regardless how he did it, he did protect his clients.
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I believe that somewhere on the Buffalo Bore website, Tim Sundles explains (I am paraphrasing) that the reason he makes "outdoorsman" ammo for the various service calibers is that he knows not everyone will invest in a cartridge that is comfortably capable of such duties, nor the gun to shoot it in, nor the time and practice to become proficient with such a firearm. Therefore the next best thing is to have the best possible ammunition in whatever cartridge the individual can shoot well and is willing to carry.

Unfortunately, that occasionally means people come to incorrect assumptions about the capabilities of cartridges that are woefully inadequate for the task, because someone got lucky. He even states about the 10mm Dangerous Game mono solid that a person is "skating on thin ice" carrying such a gun for defense again grizzly/brown bears. But I bought a couple boxes anyway. ;)
 
Lots of good conversation. I did note that the gun would be carried east of the Mississippi. I feel with the right load the 45acp +p is a good choice as it is a little easier to handle than 10mm compacts.

I would like to try a 10mm and am debating how I want to pay for it???

As far as carry choices. I was in Yellowstone about a month ago and carried my Taurus 41 mag and Taurus 605 357 mag.
Yes I would prefer a 44mag Smith 69, but with the current gun/ammo market it didn't happen.

I am seeing 10mm Pistols and ammo SC so I may want to scratch the itch.:cool:

Do I need a 10mm ? With the enablers on THR I thought that I may have some support. :D

NOTE: I would like to find some 180 grain hardcast loads for my 357. Would the solid copper bullets be a good option even though they are much lighter?
 
@WisBorn do you reload? If so, you could make yourself a solid .45acp load that would be confidence inspiring. You could also make some impressive 180gr .357 Mag loads.
 
WisBorn said:
Lots of good conversation. I did note that the gun would be carried east of the Mississippi. I feel with the right load the 45acp +p is a good choice as it is a little easier to handle than 10mm compacts.

I would like to try a 10mm and am debating how I want to pay for it???

As far as carry choices. I was in Yellowstone about a month ago and carried my Taurus 41 mag and Taurus 605 357 mag.
Yes I would prefer a 44mag Smith 69, but with the current gun/ammo market it didn't happen.

I am seeing 10mm Pistols and ammo SC so I may want to scratch the itch.:cool:

Do I need a 10mm ? With the enablers on THR I thought that I may have some support. :D

NOTE: I would like to find some 180 grain hardcast loads for my 357. Would the solid copper bullets be a good option even though they are much lighter?
Click to expand...
Solid copper is better. Less likely to deflect off the bone. Buffalo Bore and Underwood have some good loads. Underwood has solid copper xtreme penetrators that are impressive and BB has the hardcast outdoorsman... both in 10mm and 357.
 
WrongHanded said:
@WisBorn do you reload? If so, you could make yourself a solid .45acp load that would be confidence inspiring. You could also make some impressive 180gr .357 Mag loads.
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I do not reload. (Wish I would have started 35 years ago)

I have always found good factory ammo to fit my needs. Times like now makes me feel like I should start reloading.
 
Palladan44 said:
Something must have been seriously wrong with that Yote.
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Absolutely. Local wildlife authorities proclaimed the same thing. The coyote had issues. Some thought iy was too far removed (along the sea coast) from his normal prey that it was overly aggressive because it was getting weaker. I am far from qualified to make such a judgment, but desperate animals do desperate things.. True if people too.
 
WrongHanded said:
I don't know about that. I mean, I really don't know, because I've never shot a .460 Rowland. :D

I think the reason it (and the .45 Super) don't get much attention, is the same reason I just bought a 10mm. Some people don't want to make modifications and do a bunch of load workup for a trail gun. Many people wouldn't even understand the concept of doing such.
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It is actually quite pleasant. Also have the XDM 5.25 in 10mm.

IMG_0631.jpg



armydog said:
Solid copper is better. Less likely to deflect off the bone. Buffalo Bore and Underwood have some good loads. Underwood has solid copper xtreme penetrators that are impressive and BB has the hardcast outdoorsman... both in 10mm and 357.
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Problem with cast bullets isn't so much deflection as it is deformation and fragmentation. Solid copper or bronze do not deform at all, even going through heavy bone.
 
WisBorn said:
I do not reload. (Wish I would have started 35 years ago)

I have always found good factory ammo to fit my needs. Times like now makes me feel like I should start reloading.
Click to expand...

Well, for about the cost of a new handgun you can buy everything you need to make task specific loads for all your old handguns. :D

As far as your question about ammo, the mono solids are preferable in that they do not deform to any notable degree. So in the case of a flat meplat, which creates wounding damage by forcing compressed fluidized tissue in front of the nose out to the sides of the wound track, keep the nose from deforming is important. The Xtreme Penetrator design works in a different way, but using the same concept of compressed fluidized tissue, and is also much harder to deform.

Whilst I would say mono solids are somewhat preferable, I wouldn't give them too much attention. I bought a could boxes of the BB 10mm stuff, but that's mostly because I don't know how accurate that stock barrel will be with hardcast lead. And because at the same time, jacketed lead (even with a flat meplat) is a big step down in terms of bullet integrity, because they're just softer and easier to deform.

What I'm saying here is that hardcast with a nice big flat nose and plenty of velocity will likely do anything you need and is what I generally trust. The BB 180gr .357 Mag Hardcast is leaving a 3" barrel at around 1300fps. That's great! You'll just need to shoot a few to confirm accuracy.
 
CraigC said:
It does and I think a lot of people downplay the role of velocity with cast bullets. In fact, I've been in several heated discussions as of late with the "all you need is a 250gr at 900fps" crowd. In this case I think the larger meplat of the .45ACP is going to win. It's worthy of note that any semi-auto cartridge gives up meplat diameter for reliable feeding. Beartooth has a 200gr LBT for the .38-40 that would be measurably better than anything out of the 10mm.
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I tend to agree.
 
WisBorn said:
Lots of good conversation. I did note that the gun would be carried east of the Mississippi. I feel with the right load the 45acp +p is a good choice as it is a little easier to handle than 10mm compacts.

I would like to try a 10mm and am debating how I want to pay for it???

As far as carry choices. I was in Yellowstone about a month ago and carried my Taurus 41 mag and Taurus 605 357 mag.
Yes I would prefer a 44mag Smith 69, but with the current gun/ammo market it didn't happen.

I am seeing 10mm Pistols and ammo SC so I may want to scratch the itch.:cool:

Do I need a 10mm ? With the enablers on THR I thought that I may have some support. :D

NOTE: I would like to find some 180 grain hardcast loads for my 357. Would the solid copper bullets be a good option even though they are much lighter?
Click to expand...

I’m not wading in on the 40/10 debate here, but I am also curious as to the solid copper offerings. Edit to add - while not a “punch” bullet, I am curious as to how the solid coppers would perform in an auto in the scenarios contemplated herein.
 
Buzznrose said:


  1. LOL! Says the guy who shoots a lot of big bore magnum revolvers..:neener:

    But seriously, thanks Craig. I’ve been seriously considering doing this to my G21 but I keep going back to simply converting to shoot .45 Super.
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I like the Super, but at the end of the day, I think, based on personal experiences, a +P 45 will do 90% of what the Super will do, and be indistinguishable from a 10mm at the business end if we don’t take into account diameter and velocity.

Furthermore, I think it’s worth noting that it’s been documented that the Glocks don’t really do well with the boutique ammo and a load heavier than 180 grains, which raises the question (in my mind at least), why go 10mm and have to boutique it if I can do 45 ACP +P and be done with it? Think low hanging fruit here …
 
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Anchorite said:
I’m not wading in on the 40/10 debate here, but I am also curious as to the solid copper offerings. Edit to add - while not a “punch” bullet, I am curious as to how the solid coppers would perform in an auto in the scenarios contemplated herein.
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You can find videos of various tests done with copper projectiles on YouTube. I can't recall with any certainty how much harder copper is than lead, but I believe I read somewhere that copper hits about 100BHN.
 
Buzznrose said:


  1. LOL! Says the guy who shoots a lot of big bore magnum revolvers..:neener:

    But seriously, thanks Craig. I’ve been seriously considering doing this to my G21 but I keep going back to simply converting to shoot .45 Super.
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It's the comp. It won't cycle with the .460 spring but .45ACP feels like a .22. I'll try and shoot them again side by side this afternoon and report back later. It's raining all day so I won't be going to the woods.
 
Anchorite said:
Furthermore, I think it’s worth noting that it’s been documented that the Glocks don’t really do well with the boutique ammo and a load heavier than 180 grains, which raises the question (in my mind at least), why go 10mm and have to boutique it if I can do 45 ACP +P and be done with it? Think low hanging fruit here …
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Interestingly I hadn't heard this about Glock 10mm pistols until just now. In what way do they not do well with them? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to know more about that claim.

I'd argue that a 180gr FMJ FN moving at 1200fps is still pretty impressive from a stock semi-auto. It's nothing amazing, but apples to apples with .45acp FMJ, the numbers are still pretty impressive. At the end of the day, the 10mm isn't the magical and mythical beast-vanquishing cartridge some make it out to be. But it is the top end of what a regular off-the-shelf semi-auto can achieve.

I'm not saying everyone should run out and but one. But if looking for a simple solution to a woods defense handgun, it checks a lot of boxes.
 
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penetration into water jugs: 0116211525.jpg

a 325 grain bullet traveling at less than 600 fps will penetrate ten one gallon water jugs. inertia plays a big part in penetration. heavier is better here.

murf
 
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