45ACP Recoil Overrated?

[45/30-06OKIE]

Hello Y'all!
I saw an old thread talking about recoil differences in 185 and 230 grain 45acp ammo and thought I would start a new discussion on a similar topic. Basically I have a Springfield Mil-Spec 1911 in the Lord's caliber 45ACP and I have shot 230gr+p ammo out of it with barely any recoil. It shoots like a decently loaded 9mm Glock 17 IMHO. So what my point is, is why some people seem to think that 45ACP is a monster cartridge that will destroy your wrists and others like myself, think it's a dang good cartridge (can't beat a 230gr hunk of lead at 950fps) for self defense and has moderate recoil.

 

[bdickens]

Because everyone is different.

 

[9mmepiphany]

So what my point is, is why some people seem to think that 45ACP is a monster cartridge that will destroy your wrists and others like myself, think it's a dang good cartridge (can't beat a 230gr hunk of lead at 950fps) for self defense and has moderate recoil.

Because perception of recoil is relative.

An objective test in comparing recoil between similar guns chambered in you choice of cartridge (say 9mm vs. .45ACP), would be to measure overall time for a standardized drill. A common drill, to compare controlability, is the Bill Drill (6 shots from the holster, all into an 6" circle at 7 yards; 2 secs is a reasonable goal). The gun you can perform the drill in the least amount of time would be more controlable

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I don't find the recoil of a 230 gr to be punishing. I do like that the 185 gr is softer shooting, and prefer it for range fun.

 

[DTL]

The 185 has a definite edge for long range sessions. I shoot 100's of 9mm, but limit my .45 to 50 FMJ or so first. I haven't found really affordable 185 in a while, which keeps the 1911 Ronin at home for defensive use with HP's.

 

[armydog]

Some people just don't spend enough time behind the gun. The fact is it does have more recoil and for those that surprisingly find out that their fundamentals aren't as good as they think they are, they write off the 45 instead of putting in the time. They start out with 380 or 9mm and it is a different world with the 45 and 10s, and I don't mean that as an insult to anyone. And not all 45s are equal. My best shooting 45 is the HK USP with the "high bore axis" that seems to immediately come out of people's mouths. But it sounds more like they have read it in an article than actually spent time shooting one. My G21 has more muzzle rise, but all you have to do is put in the effort to get back on target as quick as possible and the rest is muscle memory just like everything else. I've come across many people that think the gun is not supposed to be so hard to control rather than understand they are supposed to train to overcome the recoil.

 

[Tallball]

Recoil bothers some people more than others.

Some 45acp ammo is spicier than average.

Some pistols don't fit some people's hands well at all.

Mix and match from the above, and you can see how some people can have unpleasant experiences.

 

[Zerodefect]

........and .40, and .357sig. Way overrated in recoil. Sure, some pistols, and some shooters, are a bad combination. But some are a good combination. I see only a miniscule difference between minor and major calibers.

Go shoot a revolver if you want to see recoil and slow follow up shots.

 

[JTQ]

Hello Y'all!
I saw an old thread talking about recoil differences in 185 and 230 grain 45acp ammo ...

It also depends on perspective.

I, as a casual shooter of 1911's in .45 Auto, can usually reliably tell the difference between 185gr and 230gr ammo. However, somebody that knowledgeably shoots a lot of .45 Auto out of a 1911, such as Rob Leatham, can probably tell the difference between various manufacturers 185gr ammo, and various hand loads, let alone the difference between 185gr and 230gr.

Likewise, somebody that can shoot x.xx splits on the clock with a 9mm, can certainly tell the difference when trying to shoot the same time with a .45 Auto.

 

[JDeere]

What armydog said has a lot to do with it. Another issue is a lot of people now days don't do anything to help build muscle memory or strengthen their wrist. The .45 is tame until you get into the officer size or compact and then it becomes a little snappy. I just cringe when I hear 20 and 30 year old men complaining about recoil from a 9mm even. I get it if one truly has a wrist issue but that issue affects very few.

 

[Hartkopf]

What armydog said has a lot to do with it. Another issue is a lot of people now days don't do anything to help build muscle memory or strengthen their wrist. The .45 is tame until you get into the officer size or compact and then it becomes a little snappy. I just cringe when I hear 20 and 30 year old men complaining about recoil from a 9mm even. I get it if one truly has a wrist issue but that issue affects very few.

As humans physically devolve, wrist strength has diminished greatly. Lots of floppy wrist guys talking with their hands. Thats fine and all but they won't be controlling recoil.

Muzzle rise is really the only difference I notice with a 45. Shoot a Glock 30 one handed (like might be needed in self defense with Golden Sabers or HSTs) and you'll see how high it wants to go.


My bill drill times are only slightly slower with a 45, not enough to make a difference in the real world IMO. First shot times are identical with splits going from .20 to .23 with 9mm to .22 to .25 with the 45. So using all of the tolerance, in one second (not including 1st shot), the best I can do with a 9mm is 5 shots and the worst I would do with the 45 is 4 shots. We could debate which is best till the end of time.

 

[LaneP]

People with no familiarity just hear "forty five automatic" and immediately associate it with something that kicks like a .454 Casull.

 

[JDeere]

As humans physically devolve, wrist strength has diminished greatly. Lots of floppy wrist guys talking with their hands. Thats fine and all but they won't be controlling recoil.

Muzzle rise is really the only difference I notice with a 45. Shoot a Glock 30 one handed (like might be needed in self defense with Golden Sabers or HSTs) and you'll see how high it wants to go.


My bill drill times are only slightly slower with a 45, not enough to make a difference in the real world IMO. First shot times are identical with splits going from .20 to .23 with 9mm to .22 to .25 with the 45. So using all of the tolerance, in one second (not including 1st shot), the best I can do with a 9mm is 5 shots and the worst I would do with the 45 is 4 shots. We could debate which is best till the end of time.

Could not agree more. I run into guys that want to argue about drill times and getting back on target quicker. I guess in a competition setting that's all good and I get it. In the real world everyday setting it won't make a bit of difference. I hear guys at the range mag dumping like there is no tomorrow as well. I look over at their targets and go why.

I carried and shot with a G30 for years. Still have it, damn fine weapon imo...

 

[Zerodefect]

Why? To get a feel for mag dumping.

It's worth experiencing.

 

[tarosean]

Exactly what @9mmepiphany describes.

"Seat of the pants" feel and other metrics are meaningless. Timers don't lie.

 

[mcb]

Recoil is one of those thing you learn to control and your body adapts to and become more tolerant to. When I bought my first semi-auto handgun after college, an XD-40, I can remember going to the indoor range and in those first few range session after about a 100 rds my hands were shaking from fatigue. I did not find 40S&W recoil that bad but after 100 rds I was fatigued and it showed in a fairly noticeable reduction in accuracy. I got real board real quick of shooting in the indoor range and that spring sought out a USPSA club local to me. I started shooting matches almost every weekend and going to the Wednesday evening practice sessions. At one point I was shooting my body weight in 180gr 40S&W bullets a summer. I could shoot 400-500 rds in a session before fatigue became an issue and that was while running around on stages, doing draw, reloads etc, not just standing in a booth.

I had been shooting revolver with a 610, 40S&W pushing a 180gr bullet to a 171 Power Factor for several years in competition. I finally got a 625 and was so excited to shoot it in a match I bought factory 45 ACP ammo rather than wait for all the equipment to show to convert my XL 650 reloading press. I shot two or three matches with factory ammo that was making just over a 200 Power Factor in my 625. That was noticeable and made a difference to my shooting and match performance. Then when I finally got setup to reload 45 ACP and started loaded my own ammo again down around the 171 Power Factor life returned to normal and improve slightly as I found 230gr bullet loaded to 171 power factor slightly easier to control and 180's at that same power factor. And the reloads were that much easier with 45 ACP.

When I finally switch to a Minor gun (125 Power Factor) for Production and as a result of the rule change in Revolver the recoil was again noticeably easier to manage.

All this said even factory 45 ACP is rather mild compared to the big bore revolvers 44 Mag, 454 Casull and on up. In the USPSA format factory 45 ACP is noticeable more recoil compared to what most competitors are using and does negatively impacts most competitors to some minor degree. Compared to some handguns though 45 ACP is rather mild.

-rambling

 

[bannockburn]

DTL

The 185 has a definite edge for long range sessions. I shoot 100's of 9mm, but limit my .45 to 50 FMJ or so first. I haven't found really affordable 185 in a while, which keeps the 1911 Ronin at home for defensive use with HP's.

Typically I run 230 gr. hardball through my full size 1911s and go with 185 gr. to 200 gr. loads in my smaller and lighter guns, like the Commander and the Officer's Model ACP, as well as with a Gold Cup.

And your right; 185 gr. ammo can sometimes be hard to come by and pricey when you do find it. That's why I got into handloading my own ammo!

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I agree with a lot of statements y'all have made, I do think it comes down to the person who is behind the trigger. It seems like a full size 1911 would soak a lot of recoil up compared to something like a snub nose revolver for instance. I have shot 40 S&W out of a sig P320 and a HK USPc and I can handle it all day long even though a lot of people seem to trash talk 40 for some reason(getting off topic a bit) ... IDK, whatever works for you.

 

[Mosin77]

45acp feels stout until you shoot a light 357 loaded with full power ammo. Then suddenly the 1911 is a breeze.

 

[The Glockodile]

I speed shoot and mag dump hot .50AE loads, and I use a timer.

What is this recoil you speak of?

Only Beta Males would notice any recoil.

 

[MikeInOr]

I have never heard .45acp described as having harsh recoil or as being a wrist breaker. I usually hear .45acp being described as a big push instead of a sharp crack like a .40 S&W making it generally more pleasant to shoot.

I do have some friends that call .45 acp recoil harsh when they shoot my 23oz XDs 3.3" .45acp subcompact for the first time. But most of my friends enjoy shooting 1911's as much as I do.

 

[Zerodefect]

My favorite major caliber pistols to shoot, with limited downside due to recoil:
1911
1911 commander
Glock 22/35/41
Glock 23/33
Cz Tso/Czeckmate

And very limited difference on my shot timer. Everything else I've tried, is more noticeable.

How the pistol fits you, and how you adapt to it becomes more important with major calibers. Some Glock copies, like the HK version, have too much of a dent under ''the beavertail'' for me. And they don't contact my hand firmly enough in recoil.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I speed shoot and mag dump hot .50AE loads, and I use a timer.

What is this recoil you speak of?

Only Beta Males would notice any recoil.

Ha! I find this hilarious cause I actually saw some 50AE at Cabela's yesterday in OKC... I honestly thought I would try to get an understanding of what other people's thoughts were on 45ACP and similar cartridges and how little recoil they do or don't feel when shooting. The fact is that most people say they shoot 9mm because it has little recoil which is true for very weak 115gr practice loads, but with 115gr +P+ 98BPLE that is going to feel way different, for instance. I personally have a 9mm, 40SW and a 45ACP handgun and they have some difference but not that much unless you are running really hot loads through the 9mm. So I figure, why not have the biggest heaviest caliber you can legally carry which is 45cal in OK.

 

[The Glockodile]

It’s a matter of perspective...

When shooting a .44 Magnum and a .45 ACP on the same day, you may notice that your .45 ACP flinch magically disappears and feels more controllable after shooting the funner caliber.



You leave the range like a...

 

[.38 Special]

A hundred years ago, .45 (ACP or Colt) recoil levels were considered "for experts only", and even the .38 Special was something that had to be worked up to. Human physiology hasn't changed much in that time, but handguns (and attitudes!) sure have. We now live in an age where even the .44 Magnum is considered to be just the entry level for "real" recoil, and things like the .454 are where the game truly starts.

The reality - which can be witnessed by the spray patterns on the targets at any busy range - is that .45s do kick, and that the .38 Special (or, more likely today, the 9mm) still requires a certain amount of conditioning before the average fellow can adapt to it.