45ACP Recoil Overrated?

[Kleanbore]

So what my point is, is why some people seem to think that 45ACP is a monster cartridge that will destroy your wrists

The repetitive impact of recoil can result in cumulative nerve damage, joint damage, and tendon issues. That is usually more of an issue with large, powerful handguns, but people who have already incurred some damage may find the .45 troublesome.

others like myself, think it's a dang good cartridge (can't beat a 230gr hunk of lead at 950fps) for self defense and has moderate recoil

The defensive effectiveness of a handgun is based less on how much mass is propelled at what velocity than on what is damaged within the human body. That is a function of penetration, placement, and to some extent, expanded diameter. "Placement"--what the bullets hit--is not a just matter of marksmanship; the internal body parts are hidden and moving fast. Placement is really a matter of chance, and the chance is increased with more shots on target in the time available.

That's where the recoil of the .45 becomes an issue. The laws of physics enable a handgun with less recoil more to be fired more rapidly with combat accuracy than one that has more recoil.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The defensive effectiveness of a handgun is based less on how much mass is propelled at what velocity than on what is damaged within the human body. That is a function of penetration, placement, and to some extent, expanded diameter. "Placement"--what the bullets hit--is not a just matter of marksmanship; the internal body parts are hidden and moving fast. Placement is really a matter of chance, and the chance is increased with more shots on target in the time available.

That's where the recoil of the .45 becomes an issue. The laws of physics enable a handgun with less recoil more to be fired more rapidly with combat accuracy than one that has more recoil.

That is really the bottom line in the defensive use of a handgun...getting repeated accurate shots on target

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

The repetitive impact of recoil can result in cumulative nerve damage, joint damage, and tendon issues. That is usually more of an issue with large, powerful handguns, but people who have already incurred some damage may find the .45 troublesome.

The defensive effectiveness of a handgun is based less on how much mass is propelled at what velocity than on what is damaged within the human body. That is a function of penetration, placement, and to some extent, expanded diameter. "Placement"--what the bullets hit--is not a just matter of marksmanship; the internal body parts are hidden and moving fast. Placement is really a matter of chance, and the chance is increased with more shots on target in the time available.

That's where the recoil of the .45 becomes an issue. The laws of physics enable a handgun with less recoil more to be fired more rapidly with combat accuracy than one that has more recoil.

I am aware of the myth and lack of stopping power in handgun cartridges which is why most serious work is done with rifle calibers such as 308 and the like. I do agree with the sentiment you brought up about repetitive hard ( not necessarily harsh) recoil having an effect on a person with arthritis or similar issues. This is a valid point of concern for handguns in general. I know one of my uncles carries a Glock 42 380ACP due to his arthritis from being a carpenter/home builder for his whole life.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

That is really the bottom line in the defensive use of a handgun...getting repeated accurate shots on target

Yes, you two are very correct . We can bicker back and forth about 50AE vs 22lr recoils for instance but a 22lr to the head would beat a 50AE to the foot lol

 

[reddog81]

.45 ACP has a moderate amount of recoil. I suppose if you're used to more powerful rounds the 45 may seem like a pip-squeak, however it definitely has more power and therefore more recoil than something like .38 Special or 9mm. Of course the gun you are shooting makes a big difference. I'd rather be shooting 2,200 FPS 200 grain 460 S&W loads out of my 72 ounce S&W XVR than shooting 1,000 FPS 200 grain loads in .45 ACP out of my 21 ounce S&W 325PD.

 

[doubleh]

Way back in the dinosaur age when I was growing up and on into my early adult years all the gunriters wrote about the fierce recoil of the 1911 45 ACP and the incredible damage it would do to a person shot with one. Having never shot one and knowing no one that had I kind of believed the recoil story. Eventually I got around to purchasing a 1911, a Gold Cup, in fact. When I shot it my immediate thought was "All these years I have believed BS stories about the 1911 and it's recoil". Having already shot a 44 mag some I considered the 45 ACP rather tame and still do for that matter.

 

[wiscoaster]

Recoil is overrated, period.

 

[CapnMac]

I used to own a clone SAA that had cylinders or both 45acp and 45colt. Really not that much difference in the two.

 

[George Dickel]

It’s a matter of perspective...

When shooting a .44 Magnum and a .45 ACP on the same day, you may notice that your .45 ACP flinch magically disappears and feels more controllable after shooting the funner caliber.

View attachment 1045436

You leave the range like a...

I shot 100 rounds of petty hot .44 mag in one shooting session and it caused a small blister in the palm of my right hand. I've shot that many and more in a session with a 45 ACP and no blisters.

 

[thunderbyrd]

well, here's a set of opinions from a guy new to shooting .45 acp:

i had never shot a .45 before about 2-3 months ago when i bought a RIA 1911 from Rural King. i bought the gun and went straight to a range. it kicked more than any handgun i'd ever shot, but i loved it. the recoil from a .45 1911 is powerful but, how else can i say it, Sweet. it has a sweet feel to it. don't fight it, just let it do it's thing and get back on the sights. i'm 63 years old and my hands feel very creaky so the .45 can give me a little bit of pain, but i don't mind! i've never enjoyed shooting a firearm as much as shooting a 1911 in 45 - but hey, a 9mm in a 1911 is pretty good too. looking forward to trying 38 super sometime soon.

and as i put on another thread, i recently shot a .357 for the first time. that was not enjoyable to me at all. the 45 is a kitten by comparison!

to anybody trying .45 acp for the 1st time, i say you just have to get in rhythm with it, it's tough but fair.

 

[Slamfire]

I regularly shoot 2700 Bullseye Pistol and noticed that no one shoots a 9mm 1911. There were those who used to shoot a M92 Beretta in 9mm, but even those fizzled. In fact, no one shoots 9mm. One shooter, Ernest claims he has the only Les Baer 9mm 1911 built, and that he had to nag Les Baer to get it. Ernest hates that pistol. And it is all due to the recoil impluse.

All the guys who have tried 9mm claim the 45 ACP impluse is easier for them to control one handed. Ernest says that, and that the 9mm rotates in his hand. Or rotates his hand, its one of those. Forty five shooters use 185 gr bullets primarily, and then download the round with just enough umph to cycle the slide. Still, controlling a 1911 during rapid fire is impossible for me. But these guys, the 9mm impluse knocks them out of position. One problem 9mm shooters have, is they can't download the round and have it be accurate at 50 yards. A 125 grain bullets has to be traveling close to 1200 fps. As David Sams told me "the slower it is, the less accurate it is".

These good shooters are dancing on a knife edge without getting their feet cut. So they are feeling and adjusting to things that are beyond me. But, I think the perceived recoil of these cartridges to be counter intuitive. But, its real.

 

[rbernie]

I have come to understand that what a lot of people describe as recoil is actually a combination of felt recoil coupled with muzzle rise, flash, and bang.

For example, I can take the same handload and have my kids shoot it through different pistols with lower / higher bore axis (axes?), and they will tell me that one recoils much worse than the other. I can create a handload that generates the same amount of energy with a lower flash powder than another, and my kids will tell me that the lower flash powder recoils less. And, of course, I can shoot the same load through different pistols with narrow / wide backstraps and have my kids tell me how much harder the narrow backstrap pistol recoils.

It turns out that I am relatively sensitive to muzzle rise and muzzle blast. I find it difficult to accurately shoot my 686, for example, with full powered 357 magnum loads - but I can shoot the same loads much more comfortably and accurately through a Chiappa Rhino. The only meaningful difference is the bore axis.

So when somebody tells me that chambering X or chambering Y kicks really hard or is conversely easy to shoot, I really look for the context around that statement and don’t pay much mind to the statement itself.

 

[thunderbyrd]

I have come to understand that what a lot of people describe as recoil is actually a combination of felt recoil coupled with muzzle rise, flash, and bang.

For example, I can take the same handload and have my kids shoot it through different pistols with lower / higher bore axis (axes?), and they will tell me that one recoils much worse than the other. I can create a handload that generates the same amount of energy with a lower flash powder than another, and my kids will tell me that the lower flash powder recoils less. And, of course, I can shoot the same load through different pistols with narrow / wide backstraps and have my kids tell me how much harder the narrow backstrap pistol recoils.

It turns out that I am relatively sensitive to muzzle rise and muzzle blast. I find it difficult to accurately shoot my 686, for example, with full powered 357 magnum loads - but I can shoot the same loads much more comfortably and accurately through a Chiappa Rhino. The only meaningful difference is the bore axis.

So when somebody tells me that chambering X or chambering Y kicks really hard or is conversely easy to shoot, I really look for the context around that statement and don’t pay much mind to the statement itself.

i want to shoot me one of those Chiappa Rhinos. i think they look cool.

 

[TTv2]

I was just looking at Lucky Gunner gel tests seeing what the .45 ACP does and while some of the loads expand to almost an inch, the penetration for a lot of the JHP stuff is very meh. Then I look and see .40 S&W 180gr Federal HST expands to .7" and goes 18 inches deep... I doubt whatever gets hit with that is going to keep doing anything.

I'm not gonna say .45 ACP is incapable of doing a good job, but it's not the quintessential handgun caliber.

 

[JR24]

The repetitive impact of recoil can result in cumulative nerve damage, joint damage, and tendon issues. That is usually more of an issue with large, powerful handguns, but people who have already incurred some damage may find the .45 troublesome.

I know both Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson have said that this (more or less) is a major reason they’ve largely moved to shooting 9mm after all those years with the .45. But they’ve shot a lot more rounds than I’ll ever shoot.

I do notice that after 150-200 rounds in a range session my hands will start to hurt with my .45s, more so with the 1911s and HK45c than the Glock 21 (which is a real softie when it comes to recoil) and I can shoot many hundred 9mm more and not have even a little of the soreness. But these days I don’t have the time or money for such long sessions anyway.

I personally cannot tell the difference in recoil between 185 grain loads and 230, and I played with a lot of combinations of bullet and powder one summer to try to find a round I liked shooting in my Ultra Carry II, eventually decided that lightweight 1911s are just 9mms for me.

Between calibers? Yes the best way to determine how one handles the recoil is to run against the clock, especially if you haven’t been shooting one and switch to the other after a long break. Did that a while back, shooting 45 and 40 for a few months and my dad visited with his CQB in 9mm and after the first shot I stopped and was surprised, where’d the recoil go?!

Split times and mag dumps might be useful for an SD situation, or they might not, certainly I judge a caliber that’s easier to hit quickly, while moving, rapidly as an advantage over others, but that first shot is pretty darned important too (or, I should say probably could be) and that shouldn’t matter in terms of recoil anyway.

I like all the calibers, personally, and find each has their advantages and agree .45 doesn’t have an incredible recoil impulse, especially compared to big revolver rounds, but can give you a good pop if your grip and expectations aren’t ready.

 

[JDeere]

That is really the bottom line in the defensive use of a handgun...getting repeated accurate shots on target

The less recoil is better crowd will argue this point forever. In a defensive situation all bets are off and your drill times won't matter. No 2 situations are the same. No one on this forum knows how they will react in a defensive situation where ones life depends on it until they are faced with it.. The right choice in how you react that will determine whether you win or lose, not your drill times.

I have nothing against 9mm what so ever and I carry one on occasion. If it's not the 9 then it's the .45 and I never worry about my follow up shots being fast enough by a fraction of a second to make a difference in a defensive situation. To each his own and both calibers will certainly do the trick.

Back to the OP, you have my thoughts earlier on in this thread.

 

[Zerodefect]

9mm is always disappointing to me. After all the talk, I expect less recoil.

I don't even care about recoil. It's muzzle flip that we need to eliminate for consistant fast shooting.

Even though 9mm has less recoil, the flip is still there. I can get a .45 to flip as little as a 9mm. Which is why I can shoot it almost as fast. Too close to call.

There's still more recoil, but the straight back push isn't going to slow me down, only the flip.

If you have heavy arms, absolutely try major calibers.

 

[tarosean]

They are just perpetuating the myth that .45acp is a manly man’s cartridge.

What u talking Willis????

 

[JR24]

What u talking Willis????

View attachment 1045955

I really want his 100 round capacity 1911s. Ideal carry gun even with the weight

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I regularly shoot 2700 Bullseye Pistol and noticed that no one shoots a 9mm 1911. There were those who used to shoot a M92 Beretta in 9mm, but even those fizzled. In fact, no one shoots 9mm. One shooter, Ernest claims he has the only Les Baer 9mm 1911 built, and that he had to nag Les Baer to get it. Ernest hates that pistol. And it is all due to the recoil impluse.

All the guys who have tried 9mm claim the 45 ACP impluse is easier for them to control one handed. Ernest says that, and that the 9mm rotates in his hand. Or rotates his hand, its one of those. Forty five shooters use 185 gr bullets primarily, and then download the round with just enough umph to cycle the slide. Still, controlling a 1911 during rapid fire is impossible for me. But these guys, the 9mm impluse knocks them out of position. One problem 9mm shooters have, is they can't download the round and have it be accurate at 50 yards. A 125 grain bullets has to be traveling close to 1200 fps. As David Sams told me "the slower it is, the less accurate it is".

These good shooters are dancing on a knife edge without getting their feet cut. So they are feeling and adjusting to things that are beyond me. But, I think the perceived recoil of these cartridges to be counter intuitive. But, its real.

That is very interesting... I have never heard or thought target load spec 9mm to be hard recoiling so I'm not sure what the deal is since in a full size 1911 it should be very very tame... Hmm, I guess the old adage about different people experience recoil differently, rings true here for this person.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I have come to understand that what a lot of people describe as recoil is actually a combination of felt recoil coupled with muzzle rise, flash, and bang.

For example, I can take the same handload and have my kids shoot it through different pistols with lower / higher bore axis (axes?), and they will tell me that one recoils much worse than the other. I can create a handload that generates the same amount of energy with a lower flash powder than another, and my kids will tell me that the lower flash powder recoils less. And, of course, I can shoot the same load through different pistols with narrow / wide backstraps and have my kids tell me how much harder the narrow backstrap pistol recoils.

It turns out that I am relatively sensitive to muzzle rise and muzzle blast. I find it difficult to accurately shoot my 686, for example, with full powered 357 magnum loads - but I can shoot the same loads much more comfortably and accurately through a Chiappa Rhino. The only meaningful difference is the bore axis.

So when somebody tells me that chambering X or chambering Y kicks really hard or is conversely easy to shoot, I really look for the context around that statement and don’t pay much mind to the statement itself.

Your point about backstrap size is very good. I had a Glock 48 for a few months before trading it for the next shiny thing I wanted, a H&K USPc40, and I shot a few rounds of 98BPLE+p+ 115gr ammo my dad had from the police department and I'll say it had a very notice mizzle flip and there rounds were 1494fps so they had some sauce behind them for sure. But as far as the actual omph into my hands, it's wasn't bad, just the mizzle flip was the only real issue, I could've held it a bit better I guess but the G48s are so skinny and slick, it's kinda hard to.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I was just looking at Lucky Gunner gel tests seeing what the .45 ACP does and while some of the loads expand to almost an inch, the penetration for a lot of the JHP stuff is very meh. Then I look and see .40 S&W 180gr Federal HST expands to .7" and goes 18 inches deep... I doubt whatever gets hit with that is going to keep doing anything.

I'm not gonna say .45 ACP is incapable of doing a good job, but it's not the quintessential handgun caliber.

Something I noticed about the LG testing, is that they used basically the shortest barrel handguns in existence for their gel tests... A Kahr has like a just barely 3" barrel I think and that is what they used for the 45acp test.

 

[Charlie98]

The less recoil is better crowd will argue this point forever. In a defensive situation all bets are off and your drill times won't matter. No 2 situations are the same. No one on this forum knows how they will react in a defensive situation where ones life depends on it until they are faced with it.. The right choice in how you react that will determine whether you win or lose, not your drill times.

I don't necessarily agree with that... but perhaps not the way you are thinking. I agree... and have always preached... that no two defensive situations are the same, and you can drill till you are blue in the face, but the Moment of Truth will always go down as a random event. I do, however, think 'your drill times' will have an effect on your actions and how well you are able to execute draw, present, and deliver accurate fire... even with a firearm that has 'snappy recoil,' etc... over someone who never trains.

 

[Kleanbore]

The less recoil is better crowd will argue this point forever

The point is incontrovertible.

In a defensive situation all bets are off and your drill times won't matter.

True, and no one has said otherwise.

 

[JR24]

I don't necessarily agree with that... but perhaps not the way you are thinking. I agree... and have always preached... that no two defensive situations are the same, and you can drill till you are blue in the face, but the Moment of Truth will always go down as a random event. I do, however, think 'your drill times' will have an effect on your actions and how well you are able to execute draw, present, and deliver accurate fire... even with a firearm that has 'snappy recoil,' etc... over someone who never trains.

Indeed. In my thinking the option that you can shoot fast, tight, accurate, groups easier on a square range is likely going to get you better results in a messy real world situation, if just by reducing the difficulty of some of the variables. But also true that no one will ever know until they know, and I hope to never find out myself.

Something I noticed about the LG testing, is that they used basically the shortest barrel handguns in existence for their gel tests... A Kahr has like a just barely 3" barrel I think and that is what they used for the 45acp test.

True, and .45 is certainly a caliber that benefits from longer barrels, or at least seems to suffer more from short barrels in many loads.