9mm Neck Tension Issues (random)

[Hrbie22]

Without reading the whole thread, I have always had some issues with blazer brass and neck tension. I just sort them out and put them to the side and it resolved the issue. I didn't take a deeper dive due to the fact it was just as easy to sort the brass.

I do out a light crimp on all of my 9mm that is loaded and I randomly check tension when doing a run. And that seemed to solve any issuses.

 

[jmorris]

Uhh...the MBF doesn’t use an expander...? The charges case simply pushes it up and allows a bullet to drop into the case mouth

The dropper is just that but without any expander prior, the bullet often will not stay.

You may have not received one and why you bought the Lyman M expander (that expands more than most expanders); however, they do often come with them, they call them a powder funnel, as does Dillon.

Worth noting the 3rd paragraph is talking about the powder funnel and NOT the bullet dropper.


If you didn’t recieve them the instructions for the MBF are here.
https://www.doublealpha.biz/images/BF user manual EN V3 - JPG copies.pdf

You can go here https://www.lymanproducts.com/rifle-neck-expanding-m-dies and read about the Lyman M dies that...

The first step expands the inside of the case neck to just under bullet diameter for precise case neck tension in the finished reload.

The second step expands the case mouth to bullet diameter or slightly over.

The “slightly over” = no tension imparted to the bullet, as the bullet is smaller than the over portion of the case.

I am not saying that many of us have not successfully implemented these products but you are introducing items that might require further consideration vs just using regular stuff that has also worked for decades.

 

[jmorris]

The straight portion that first enters the case on the first two from left to right is the expander portion of the powder die, the 3rd from the left is a powder die that only flares, it is unique to some presses that have a separate expander station that uses the die on the right prior to charging.



Hornady calls them a PTX or powder through expander.

https://www.hornady.com/reloading/p...e-activated-powder-drop-powder-accessories#!/

And MBF makes over size ones for them too.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/horn...v-J3RpX_h6OJse-fHMxJGsw4w8RzzACgaAtltEALw_wcB

Most Rifle powder funnels don’t have them because the expander is part of the decapping stem.



They work because the expander is in the larger section of the bottom of the case as the neck is being sized. Straight walled rounds can’t do this because things would lock up solid when you squeezed the brass onto the expander with no where to go.

 

[NMexJim]

Alright, good job Mr Morris.

 

[jmorris]

Ahh, my statement,

The MBF droppers, for pistol bullets often have larger expanders...

Would have been better stated “...are often accompanied with larger expanders..” the bullet droppers themselves do not expand, despite requiring one to have entered a case prior to dropping a bullet into it.

The pistol feeder “kits” come with the powder funnel/expander, the rifle ones do not. That was the intent of the comment, even if communicated poorly.

The expanding powder funnel supplied is for the Dillon reloading machines only (no expansion powder funnel is included with the rifle calibers) not compatible with other brands. To use with the LnL press, you will need to purchase their expanding powder funnel separately.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/mr-bulletfeeder-conversion-kit

With the rifle feeders and boat tail bullets you don’t need any abnormal expansion of the neck and they tamp and stay put during indexing just fine.

Like one of my 1050’s with the KISS feeder (what they were called before they split up and the name changed to MBF).

 

[Alex G]

I actually got the Mr. Bulletfeeder die by itself, without the feed bowl or expanders. I pre-load tubes of bullets to have on hand, and designed and 3D printed an adapter to allow the Lee bullet feed tubes to connect directly to the MBF die.

I decided to pick up a Lee universal expander die, and see if that would help when doing jacketed/plated.
I also picked up the .355 PTX expander insert for my powder drop, to see (at least for jacketed/plated .355 bullets) if it is a case of over-expansion with weaker brass such as Blazer. Pictures attached for reference with bullets in feed tube, and 2 more tubes ready to go in the background. (Currently running cast projectiles in the photos)

 

[Alex G]

The straight portion that first enters the case on the first two from left to right is the expander portion of the powder die, the 3rd from the left is a powder die that only flares, it is unique to some presses that have a separate expander station that uses the die on the right prior to charging.

You are correct, and I am familiar with the different expander/flaring setups and their geometry.

 

[Alex G]

The pistol feeder “kits” come with the powder funnel/expander, the rifle ones do not. That was the intent of the comment, even if communicated poorly.

Ah, then we are indeed on the same page haha
I see how you meant it now

 

[jmorris]

Let us know if any of the other expanders cure your issue. Since you have a 3D printer, you could ditch the manual feeding of tubes altogether and print of one of Ammomikes collators.

 

[murf]

Calipers

calipers will give you a smaller number than pin gauges, or small hole gauges. and r-p cases have notoriously thin walls. i'd pick a thick wall case brand and stick with it, or size the cases a second time with a 380 acp sizing die.

luck,

murf

 

[Alex G]

Okay, quick update-
The lee universal case-expander arrived, which I set up to flare the case mouth just enough to drop a bullet in and not tip over when actuating the press to the next station. I specifically used a majority of blazer brass as an attempt to make it fail, and had 4/10 bullets setback like before. I’ve got a Redding 9mm Titanium Carbide sizer on the way, hoping that will size a bit smaller than the MA and give any extra neck tension. And yes, the MA is sizing them properly, with good tension-all except blazer evidently.

Will post again back here when I find out more. Thanks!

 

[Zendude]

I had setback problems with loading 380. A lee undersized sizing die fixed the problem. It does give the completed cartridge more of an hourglass shape.

 

[NMexJim]

Alex, just out of curiosity, did you ever remove all the extras - case and bullet feed - and try what you had? I know that kinda defeats the purpose, but I keep wondering if it's time to go back to basics and give that a try just to see if your problems stop.

Good luck.

 

[Alex G]

Alex, just out of curiosity, did you ever remove all the extras - case and bullet feed - and try what you had? I know that kinda defeats the purpose, but I keep wondering if it's time to go back to basics and give that a try just to see if your problems stop.

Good luck.

yup,
Fed cases manually, and set bullets manually. No change, unfortunately.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it’s a brass/brass size issue. For the brass that can maintain good neck tension (I.e. the S&B and others that aren’t failing) the sizing die is sizing perfectly. No waisting, and perfect chambering. For the weaker brass (a certain percentage of the blazer mostly) it doesn’t have the neck tension to hold the projectile against setback, regardless of which expander (M-Die or Lee Universal Expander) I use. That rules out the expander being the issue. We will see when my Redding 9mm die arrives if that helps by sizing the case down a little more.

 

[NMexJim]

yup,
Fed cases manually, and set bullets manually. No change, unfortunately.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it’s a brass/brass size issue. For the brass that can maintain good neck tension (I.e. the S&B and others that aren’t failing) the sizing die is sizing perfectly. No waisting, and perfect chambering. For the weaker brass (a certain percentage of the blazer mostly) it doesn’t have the neck tension to hold the projectile against setback, regardless of which expander (M-Die or Lee Universal Expander) I use. That rules out the expander being the issue. We will see when my Redding 9mm die arrives if that helps by sizing the case down a little more.

And, have you kept track of the number of times the cases have been reloaded? Given everything else you’ve done, that about all that’s left.

Arguably, pistol brass should be pitched at somewhere around 5X/6X give or take, but obviously heat has much to do with that. As I’ve said, my experience has been that primer pockets get loose before pistol brass loses ductility, but your mileage may very well be different.

We anneal rifle brass to restore ductility or suffer at the very least extraction problems. I learned that fact-of-life the hard way years ago, as many of us has, but I don’t remember any sizing issues prior to having to beat a bolt open on a varmint rifle. Same load, didn’t anneal, didn’t do that again.

I too am interested to see results with the Redding die. I’m having trouble visualizing where more “squeeze” would cure the issue. Please keep us posted.

 

[Alex G]

And, have you kept track of the number of times the cases have been reloaded?

This will be the first time I have loaded and fired them myself. I had ordered them from Mark at Big Dog Brass and Reloading as unprocessed range brass, so I’m not sure of their history before coming to me.

As far as the Redding die, I’m hoping it can size a bit smaller than my MA die, but not as small as say a Lee U die.

 

[jmorris]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it’s a brass/brass size issue.

If it’s all of (and only) one brand that sounds likely.

Measure them like this.



As the size die only reduces the OD of the case, less wall thickness will correlate to a larger ID, thus having less tension on the bullet. Prior to expanding obviously.

 

[NMexJim]

Just a note for your future reference. If you have Concealed Carry License trainers around your area, often they will sell range brass.

Trainees leave behind a lot of new brass. Our state has a requirement to demonstrate proficiency which I have personally witnessed to be a wonderful thing. At least we know they can hit 70% of 25 rounds into an 8 x 11 piece of paper when they leave. Gives one a little peace of mind. Anywayyy.......

I buy by the bucket and sort it all out. I've gotten TZZ, IMI, PMC, Rem, Win, Federal, UMC, Blazer, Sig, and a host of others hard to even identify. I separate out the Winchester because I happen to like that best. and use it for more critical stuff.

I load for eleven 9mm in my family (couple Sigs, couple Kahrs, couple Browning Hi-Power, three Springfields, a CZ, and a lonely Walther). Daughters, Sons-in-law, and now a granddaughter. Everything not Win and in as-new condition gets pitched into the communal pot in bags of 1,000.

I love my CCW guy! You can never have enough brass (or primers). If I don't like the feel for whatever reason, that bag goes bye-bye!.

Last, I try to duplicate the feel for factory carry ammo which for all happens to be Federal 124 gr HST standard loading. Not hot, not mild, just right. We pitch together and buy by the case.

 

[Alex G]

For those interested-here’s a 4 month update on the MA die, and why I will never be buying another MA product again. I only have a sample size of 3 TNT sizing dies, but from my experience, stay away from MA. Attached below is a link to my experience and review of the die, and while there is more I could say, I’ll keep it professional and let the results speak for themselves.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/beware-mighty-armory-qa-qc-nothing-but-issues.891196/