5.7x28: Inform me

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no one can show any tests where a load in this caliber displays sufficient wounding, but you say they're wrong,

I don't say they are wrong, I say they don't know one way or the other because the only round they have tested was SS90, which was never sold on the market.

There has been little testing on the new rounds. I'd love to see it one way or the other, but the information just doesn't seem to exist so I don't see how anyone can make the statement that ballistics testing shows it to be ineffective.
 
Remington 700

Midway is/was offering Rem 700 barrels and bolts for 5.7x28.

Bruce
 
IIRC, some of the guys on the fivesevenforum have shot every type of 5.7 ammo into gelatin. ALL of them suck compared to any true rifle round, and MOST of them suck compared to 9mm or .45ACP. 9-10" of penetration is typical, with a small permanent wound cavity and small fragments.

5.7 is an answer without a question. For civilians it is neutered with hornady varmint bullets that will not kill humans well. For military it is inferior to the already-in-service 5.56. The only things going for it are the compactness of the P90 and the ability to feed a pistol and a carbine the same ammo. That's it. Ballistically, 5.7 is a terrible choice.

I would own a P90, but not as a serious weapon, merely as a fun gun for range work.
 
So all the ballistics guys are saying this round isn't all that hot, no one can show any tests where a load in this caliber displays sufficient wounding, but you say they're wrong, its a fine round with clearly sufficient wounding potential but you just can't tell what the load is that delivers it?

Show us that. I have seen tests that can go both ways. All the negative 5.7 guys love to pile on this topic on EVERY thread that shows up. But, when they ask for evidence, I never see them illustrating any either. Don't say "all the ballistics guys" - show us some tests dude. YOU give us some info that shows the round sucks.

If you aren't interested in it - fine. But, unless you have some hard core data to back up your side, all you are doing is repeating what you've sene other guys say on other posts... And they are generally repeating what another guy said...

Anyway - this topic has no end. On here or on The Firing Line - every topic on the 5.7 round breaks down into this type of argument. But, I will grant you that everyone stayed civil on this thread. I can't say that for some of the others.

Anyway - if ya aren't interested in the 5.7 guns. Fine. If you - then fine. For the guys who are - come check out the FN Forum. Lots of good information there.

If you aren't interested... Well, go shoot a gun you do like then. :)
 
It was made to be an armor piercing round that would allow for high capacity magazines. It was made for medium ranges 25-150 yards and made to fit in a pistol with a twenty round magazine as well as the p90. Since the armor piercing round is not available on the civilian market that I know of, it makes the gun a range toy with very little practical purposes other than being the ultimate varmint pistol. No, I don't want to get shot with one, but for the money there is so much more out there.
 
I purchased a FiveseveN and proceeded to fire several hundred rounds through it at both targets and a number of varmint type animals. I would not recommend this round for self defense, unless you consider 22 WMR to be a good self defense round. While ot performed well on gophers, I had several failures on PD and large jackrabbits. In examining wounds, I found it compared poorly to 22 Hornet.

I have not had a chance to fire it from a PS90, but I doubt it would be any more effective that the 22 hornet to which it is rightly compared.

IMO, this round is about hype and nothing more. You should consider the source. The Europeans consider the 25 ACP and 32 ACP to be adequate self defense rounds, and the 9mm is considered a powerful catridge.

Since it is possible to build 223 weapons with a similar size as the P90, I really don't see the point of adding another round to the logistical tail.
 
Yay, caliber war!!!:neener:

I'm a neutral party in this one as I can't afford the gun or the ammo right now anyway. :D

On another note,
I was leaving my local range when I observed this at the rental gun counter:

A guy was returning a gun he rented stating that his buddy on the line said not to come back out there with that "P**SY A** 9mm" as it is a "hippy gun."
He was ogling the FN 5-7 stating "I want to rent that one, it shoots a bullet like an m16 right?" I advised him that if his buddy thinks 9mm are p***y a**, he better not go back out there with a 5-7.:D
 
Show us that. I have seen tests that can go both ways. All the negative 5.7 guys love to pile on this topic on EVERY thread that shows up. But, when they ask for evidence, I never see them illustrating any either. Don't say "all the ballistics guys" - show us some tests dude. YOU give us some info that shows the round sucks.

If you aren't interested in it - fine. But, unless you have some hard core data to back up your side, all you are doing is repeating what you've sene other guys say on other posts... And they are generally repeating what another guy said...
I posted earlier in this thread a somewhat lengthy quote by Gary Roberts with several journal articles cited in it, are those insufficient for some reason? Gelatin tests are abound if you care to look at them also.

from FN
574.jpg


Brassfetcher
http://www.brassfetcher.com/5.7x28mm.html

He was ogling the FN 5-7 stating "I want to rent that one, it shoots a bullet like an m16 right?"
:D
 
I looked into this a while back, and though I can't cite my sources, I remember finding that the only good ammunition in 5.7mm, as in the stuff with the nice terminal ballistics and all that, is the same stuff that has been classified as armor piercing, and thus can't be easily purchased by civilians. The same with the P90...only the watered down version is available for us common folk. It gets me kinda angry, because everything I like about the 5.7 I can't have. I can't get the ammo that's good, and I can't get a P90/PS90 that can do what it's designed to do (be very compact and maneuverable and allow the user to hold a tight group on full auto).

I love the system, but hate the civie equivalents. I was looking in to getting the 5.7 pistol before I found out I couldn't get any ammunition for it that could perform like it was designed to perform (the AP rounds just happen to be the best tumblers). That's when I started looking at a Glock 20; helluva lot more knock down power and only 5 less in the mag :)
 
I posted earlier in this thread a somewhat lengthy quote by Gary Roberts with several journal articles cited in it, are those insufficient for some reason

Geez, of course they are insufficient; that testing was done with ammo that does not, and never did exist out in the real world. Why do you keep quoting it like it matters?

No one has tested the production, shipping, in every day use ammo in 5.7x28, why is that so hard to get a grasp of?

Some guy in his backyard shooting at a wad of gelatin is not "data".

The HONEST TRUTH about 5.7x28 is that NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE at this point. It has not been tested with modern procedures using the modern bullet designs, and there have not been enough autopsies done on poeple shot with it to have any forensic data.

It may work well or it may suck, use at your own risk :)
 
I see the weapons in my local store, and especially the PS90s are cool looking, but here in NY I am limited to 10 rounds - hardly worth it in an SA piece costing over $2000. For the OP, I think things in Calif may be the same.

I know I was (surprisingly) underwhelmed by the ballistics in an article I read last year; though as Texas says - things may have changed by now.
 
It seems to me you have to think of the P90 in the context it was designed for. A very small sub machinegun with minimul recoil.

It seems especially well suited for the Secret Service due to the complete lack of over-penetration in a crowd, coupled with instant incapacitation of a BG.

But you can bet the farm they aren't going to just pop off one round!

When they shoot someone with a P90, the BG's chest is going to look like swiss cheese & hamburger from the front side!

And unlike with an MP-5 or mini-Uzi 9mm sub-gun, folks standing behind the BG won't be collateral damage.

1224.jpg
rcmodel
 
I used to own a PS90 and it was fun until the novelty wore off. Basically, I felt that the stock ringsight was garbage and replaced it with a 1913 rail. Still, the optic height was way to high over the bore axis, and it just didn't seem to have much punch for anything past 100m.

I would say that the Hornady V-max round is quite a kicker for its size. I'd recommend that round over the HP A-max round any day of the week. Go ahead and fire the 5.7 varmint round into a pond. I did, and I got splashed by water 25 yards away. Combine that with an accurate shot placement and I'd be comfortable making headshots on a BG.

The downside is it's penetration. In spite of the above gelatin test, it doesn't penetrate very far into harder items. The round couldn't penetrate an unopened beer can, which my 9mm CZ75B quickly dispatched.

If there was a readily available caliber conversion kit to either 7.65 Tok, .38 Super/9x23, 10mm auto, or another viable caliber, I would have kept my PS90.

Rhineland Arms is advertising a funky bullpup pistol carbine on their website. Given their reputation for vaporware, I'd bet dollars to donuts that it will never be released.
 
It is a .22 with around 9mm energy in better loadings.

Penetration of thin barriers should be excellent for the energy.

However terminal performance is severely lacking. The wound channel is far too small. Even with the ammunition designed to make it partialy effective it has experienced many problems failing to provide adequate stopping power. Civilians are unable to even get that ammunition.
It is designed to provide a better wound channel by bending into a sort of L shape after impact and flipping in the target to make up for its small diameter, which it only does some of the time on realistic targets of bone and tissue.

If you follow the round from its design to its production the entire purpose of the round was to provide penetration of body armor, and then manage to have stopping power of a larger diameter round while remaining in the realm of pistol energy.
Removing any of the elements necessary to accomplish this from the round, which is what all of the civilian legal rounds do, destroys its already marginal effectiveness.

The civilian rounds do not flip, they do not come out in bursts or on full auto to make up for poor performance of each individual round, and the only thing they share in common with the round responsible for this caliber even existing is the dimensions. They are totaly different rounds, not even comparable.

The civilian version is basicly a very speedy varmint round. The absolute only reasons to consider it for anything else would be low recoil and high capacity. You could put half a dozen shots where you want them in the blink of an eye, but its going to take 2-3 shots to accomplish what 1 of other popular defensive calibers does. If however you have any capacity limitations like some states and localities do, then it becomes even worse of a choice.

Furthermore none of the firearms chambered in this round make use of the small dimensions of the round in creating a pocket size firearm. The selections are of full sized guns with poor ballistic performance.

In CA with a capacity limitation of 10 rounds, poor terminal performance, traditional rounds designed to increase the diameter of the wound channel by mushrooming rather than flipping (with flipping being the only reason it even becomes a marginal round) and a large size gun, it is basicly a combination of every single feature you do not want in a self defense firearm: Low capacity, low performance, and large gun.

For varmints it should work great, it is after all a very fast .22 that will mushroom into an explosion once it hits a little animal. A bit pricey for soley a varmint gun though. The trajectory will also make it a hazard to people for a longer range than many varmint shots.
 
The civilian version is basically a very speedy varmint round. The absolute only reasons to consider it for anything else would be low recoil and high capacity. You could put half a dozen shots where you want them in the blink of an eye, but its going to take 2-3 shots to accomplish what 1 of other popular defensive calibers does. If however you have any capacity limitations like some states and localities do, then it becomes even worse of a choice.

Actually - you are not quite correct - there are two civilian rounds available. 1 is a varmint type round. But there is also the 195 round that behaves like the SS190 law enforcement round. It just doesn't have the same armor piercing ability. It yaws like the 190 - and I have seen several tests done by people that shows consistency of performance shot after shot.

Admittedly, the 197 round may or may not fragment properly - which could lead to more penetration if it does not fragment right. But, the 197 makes a bigger initial would channel.
 
Geez, of course they are insufficient; that testing was done with ammo that does not, and never did exist out in the real world. Why do you keep quoting it like it matters?
He asked to see proof of what the ballistics guys said and the evidence supporting their statements, I pointed him to it. Maybe the currently available lighter, slower, jhp round makes better wounds. I wouldn't put my money on that but.. Personally I think its interesting data to look at, he might as well.

No one has tested the production, shipping, in every day use ammo in 5.7x28, why is that so hard to get a grasp of?
Sure they have, if you'll tell what load you want to see test results for I'll be glad to see if I can't dig some up for you. Like I asked before, what new round is the winner? ss197sr? ss195lf? A different one?

Some guy in his backyard shooting at a wad of gelatin is not "data".
I tend to take it with a grain of salt but if its properly calibrated and he shows his calibration data I don't see any reason to think its going to be far off the truth. You might not have the choice down to iwba or fbi fabric protocol, but you make it sound like there are loads out there that we just have no idea how they'll perform and thats just not at all true. Really we shouldn't even need to do that. Looking at the existing rounds we should see that none of them are "this close" to being great performers and just need tweaking. We should be able to recognize that no matter how you put it all together an expanded 9mm jhp should make a bigger wound than anything we could milk out of it. If you could get rifle style wounds of a handgun cartridge then sure but I don't see how you could look at the tests on existing rounds and what the round has to work with and think its going to be a good performer. It would need to be some real magic.
 
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The FN 5.7 x 28 pistol is the choice (new weaponary) for the U.S. Secret
Service Protection Detail. These weapons, NIB come with three, 20 round
magazines; and sell for $959.88 per unit in our shop~! They are made in
Belgium, by FN Herstal. Right now, a fifty round box of ammo cost $23.95
but I don't know how long we can maintain that price~? :scrutiny: ;)

The FN (5.7 x 28) PS 90 rifle retails for $1679~!
 
I've had a PS90 for almost 2 years.Since I don't shoot people or animals with it,the terminal performance isn't a big deal to me.It's easy and fun to shoot and very cool looking,pretty much everything I look for in a firearm.
 
Hits count, misses don't. I shoot the FN 57 faster and more accurately than anything else and that's good enough for nightstand duty in my house. Terminal performance? I've heard enough real-world results from LEO's to satisfy me (YMMV). All handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" so shot placement first, all else is secondary. With the PS90 I have a short, light SD package that can be easily fired from prone or with one hand, has no muzzle flash, mild muzzle blast, negligible recoil, 50rd mag & little fear of overpenetration.
Tomac
ETA: Ammo can be had for as little as $17/box if you know where to look and that's significantly cheaper than most quality .223 & SD handgun ammo.
 
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