5-Shot Snub: Enough Gun?

[trackskippy]

A hammerless snubbie is the ultimate edc IMO. You could literally fire it from inside a pocket, purse, briefcase, etc without tying it up. Try that with any other platform.

You can fire any of them that way, and maybe they will, maybe they wont, but whats it really matter if you aren't making good hits with each shot? Just making noise and destroying clothing and accessories doesnt count.

Exactly! Passersby and other motorists didn't notice, the teenager trying to impress your daughter didn't notice, your daughter may not have noticed, and even your dog did not notice and likely only wanted a biscuit.

That is the day-to-day beauty of a pocket-carried .357 Mag revolver. One can be instantly ready WITHOUT ruffling feathers if everything turns out to be fine. It is kind of hard to not notice someone dramatically sweeping his/her coat back and purposefully putting their hand on their hip.

While I love my semi-automatics they do not have this same effortless way to visually descalate.

Sure they do, dont do anything that needlessly escalates things. And my 17 carried AIWB doesnt show any more than most things in a pocket holster, and in a lot of cases, even less.

The only way this works with pocket carry, is if you walk around with your hand in your pocket on the gun the whole time, which in itself looks a bit odd, especially if its not cold out, and who does that? I dont know about you, but someone I dont know who is walking towards me on the street and putting their hand in their pocket, tends to get at least some of my attention. That in itself is as good a flag as sweeping a cover garment.

To me, pocket carry is more limiting than practical, and even more so if you look at it from a realistic standpoint, and not just cherry pick a couple of things that look like they "might" work.

Just out of curiosity here, but how many here who pocket carry, actually practice at the range "from the pocket" when they shoot? Hand on the gun, and more realistically, starting from hands off? And if you do, how well do you do with a little stress added to the mix?

Id be willing to bet too, from a "startle" start, I'll clear my shirt, fleece, anorak, ect, and have the gun out and running before you get the gun out of your pocket.

 

[nugi]

Of all the threads on this topic I’ve seen at THR, this is one of the better ones.

Fewer fudds insisting J-frames serve no purpose, more informative discussion of the pros and cons

 

[Blue Jays]

"…The only way this works with pocket carry, is if you walk around with your hand in your pocket on the gun the whole time, which in itself looks a bit odd, especially if its not cold out, and who does that?…"

It is well below freezing where I live this time of year.
Many people walking around town with hands in coat pockets.
It is typical and commonplace behavior. It raises no eyebrows.

"…I dont know about you, but someone I dont know who is walking towards me on the street and putting their hand in their pocket, tends to get at least some of my attention. That in itself is as good a flag as sweeping a cover garment…"

What are you (or anyone) seriously going to do about it?
One can opt to cross the road, yet that is about it.
Hands in coat pockets during wintertime is 100% lawful.

 

[TxUplander]

You can fire any of them that way, and maybe they will, maybe they wont, but whats it really matter if you aren't making good hits with each shot? Just making noise and destroying clothing and accessories doesnt count.


Sure they do, dont do anything that needlessly escalates things. And my 17 carried AIWB doesnt show any more than most things in a pocket holster, and in a lot of cases, even less.

The only way this works with pocket carry, is if you walk around with your hand in your pocket on the gun the whole time, which in itself looks a bit odd, especially if its not cold out, and who does that? I dont know about you, but someone I dont know who is walking towards me on the street and putting their hand in their pocket, tends to get at least some of my attention. That in itself is as good a flag as sweeping a cover garment.

To me, pocket carry is more limiting than practical, and even more so if you look at it from a realistic standpoint, and not just cherry pick a couple of things that look like they "might" work.

Just out of curiosity here, but how many here who pocket carry, actually practice at the range "from the pocket" when they shoot? Hand on the gun, and more realistically, starting from hands off? And if you do, how well do you do with a little stress added to the mix?

Id be willing to bet too, from a "startle" start, I'll clear my shirt, fleece, anorak, ect, and have the gun out and running before you get the gun out of your pocket.

you are certainly entitled to an opinion as we all are. So you gave us your scenario, and ill give you mine. You are being mugged or car jacked. Guy says “give me your money”. You say “sure buddy, no problem….just please dont shoot me”! Are your chances better shooting from a pocket or purse as you get your “money” or from clearing your semi auto from its holster and firing? We are talking about 2-3’ distance here which id be willing to bet is realistically how these things play out “in real life”. Im pretty sure at 3’ i could hit an assailant from a pocket with no trouble. Im inclined to believe that the flight response will come up more often than the fight response As a projectile is ripping through someones guts. Your frantic sudden movements to clear and fire i feel would have the opposite effect. Thankfully ive never found myself in the situation to prove my theory!

 

[JimCunn]

When getting gas at the service station, I stand forward of the gas cap facing away from the car with my left hand on the nozzle and my right hand in my pocket (even when I'm not carrying).

 

[trackskippy]

It is well below freezing where I live this time of year.
Many people walking around town with hands in coat pockets.
It is typical and commonplace behavior. It raises no eyebrows.

Yea, that's "winter", how about the summer? Most of the time when this comes up, those who pocket carry always tell you is faster and easier, as they have their hands on their guns. Which we both know, isnt every second of the day, and most likely, not anywhere near as much as they'd like to think.

What are you (or anyone) going to do about it?
One can cross the road, and that is about it.
Hands in coat pockets during wintertime is 100% lawful.

Im paying attention to it, "especially" if the hand in going in as they approach. Its lawful anytime, its just not necessarily "normal" every time.

Im not saying hand in the pockets isnt normal, at least for a season, its the setting and the situation that is the point, and the fact that just because you might have a hand on the gun, doesnt necessarily mean its going to be quicker and more advantageous. In fact, thats another big negative if someone is a step or two away, as they can easily trap your hand and gun in its pocket and in essence disarm you quicker than you can react.

you are certainly entitled to an opinion as we all are. So you gave us your scenario, and ill give you mine. You are being mugged or car jacked. Guy says “give me your money”. You say “sure buddy, no problem….just please dont shoot me”! Are your chances better shooting from a pocket or purse as you get your “money” or from clearing your semi auto from its holster and firing? We are talking about 2-3’ distance here which id be willing to bet is realistically how these things play out “in real life”. Im pretty sure at 3’ i could hit an assailant from a pocket with no trouble. Im inclined to believe that the flight response will come up more often than the fight response As a projectile is ripping through someones guts. Your frantic sudden movements to clear and fire i feel would have the opposite effect. Thankfully ive never found myself in the situation to prove my theory!

You say youre "pretty sure", so I assume youve never tried and/or done so in practice to know?

Sounds like you've never seen, or yourself drawn, and shot a handgun from an AIWB holster.

If you havent done either in practice, Id suggest doing so, just so you have a more realistic idea as to what really goes on. Its a great idea to practice/try as many different things as you can, so you know what works and what doesnt. It can give you a lot of options you wouldnt normally have, but you do have to actually work on those sorts of things to prove them. Anything you try to do on the fly or try and wing, generally dont go well, at least the first time around, and is doing that for the first time, what you want to be doing when it really counts?

People, including supposedly well trained people, miss opponents just feet from them, and repetitively, all the time, and that's with service/full size high cap handguns, so dont assume that just because they are close, you will hit them, and more importantly, hit them in the right places to bring about a quick stop. Just because you hit someone, doesnt mean it will end right there with one hit, and people have been shown to soak up numerous rounds, and often more than the 5 or 6 rounds in a small revolver or auto.

The whole point in constantly working on things ahead of time too is, so you wont be "frantic", at least in the gun end of things. That should all be smooth and deliberate and without thought.

 

[.38 Special]

Not sure how many rounds in the gentleman's revolver, but this account seems pretty typical:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/elderly-...-be-robbers-emptying-his-gun?dicbo=v2-pgbq6g4

Everybody shoots, no one gets shot in any significant way, and the bad guys run off.

 

[TxUplander]

Yea, that's "winter", how about the summer? Most of the time when this comes up, those who pocket carry always tell you is faster and easier, as they have their hands on their guns. Which we both know, isnt every second of the day, and most likely, not anywhere near as much as they'd like to think.


Im paying attention to it, "especially" if the hand in going in as they approach. Its lawful anytime, its just not necessarily "normal" every time.

Im not saying hand in the pockets isnt normal, at least for a season, its the setting and the situation that is the point, and the fact that just because you might have a hand on the gun, doesnt necessarily mean its going to be quicker and more advantageous. In fact, thats another big negative if someone is a step or two away, as they can easily trap your hand and gun in its pocket and in essence disarm you quicker than you can react.


You say youre "pretty sure", so I assume youve never tried and/or done so in practice to know?

Sounds like you've never seen, or yourself drawn, and shot a handgun from an AIWB holster.

If you havent done either in practice, Id suggest doing so, just so you have a more realistic idea as to what really goes on. Its a great idea to practice/try as many different things as you can, so you know what works and what doesnt. It can give you a lot of options you wouldnt normally have, but you do have to actually work on those sorts of things to prove them. Anything you try to do on the fly or try and wing, generally dont go well, at least the first time around, and is doing that for the first time, what you want to be doing when it really counts?

People, including supposedly well trained people, miss opponents just feet from them, and repetitively, all the time, and that's with service/full size high cap handguns, so dont assume that just because they are close, you will hit them, and more importantly, hit them in the right places to bring about a quick stop. Just because you hit someone, doesnt mean it will end right there with one hit, and people have been shown to soak up numerous rounds, and often more than the 5 or 6 rounds in a small revolver or auto.

The whole point in constantly working on things ahead of time too is, so you wont be "frantic", at least in the gun end of things. That should all be smooth and deliberate and without thought.

You make too many assumptions about myself and others. I was LEO for many years and have plenty of “high speed low drag” training. I Feel qualified to voice an opinion and theory. I also feel CONFIDENT in saying i could engage a target at 3’ from a pocket, not only faster, but also with much more stealth, than you could clear, draw, and engage. You disagree?

 

[trackskippy]

You make too many assumptions about myself and others. I was LEO for many years and have plenty of “high speed low drag” training. I Feel qualified to voice an opinion and theory. I also feel CONFIDENT in saying i could engage a target at 3’ from a pocket, not only faster, but also with much more stealth, than you could clear, draw, and engage. You disagree?

Im not making assumptions, just observations. And as with most things, it all depends on the situation. People tend to cherry pick their arguments to fit their ideas and not look at the big picture.

Coat pocket? Maybe. Pants pocket? No way. And if youre 3' away and your hand is in your pocket either way, my first thought would be to do my best to trap that hand in that pocket and try and control things from there. Youre basically a one-armed man at that point, and why wouldn't I? You?

Not every response calls for a gun, or at least not immediately. You may need to do something else in order to gain a better advantage.

You say you "feel confident" shooting like that, but have you actually done it repetitively in practice to know it will in fact work and work well every time? Me, personally, Id rather try and scoot offline and draw and shoot as I go, and know Ill get decent hits, rather than try and be tricky, and just wing it and hope.

It seems too, that a lot of people seem to think you cant easily conceal a full sized handgun, at any time of year or in most places, and still be able to quickly get it into action, and have to go with a lesser compromise. You dont, or at least, I dont. Im not against small revolvers as a BUG, I can see they can have a place there, I just dont see them as a primary gun. And truthfully, Ive come to prefer and use one of my 26's for that role anyway. Basically the same size gun, with twice the onboard ammo, and can be much more gun if need be.

And by all means, do what you feel best. Our choices are our choices, for whatever reason, its just I wonder sometimes why some choices are made, and what drove the thinking behind those choices. Was it made from what was learned and bore out in practice, or just something that seems like a good idea at the time, with no other basis than that?

 

[mavracer]

My "argument" is that there are good reasons for preferring more than 5.

And most of those reasons involve 10+ round count.
I find it amazing how much band width is spent on 5 isn't enough you need that magic 6 or 7th bullet that some carry because this one guy took 12 rounds or the other that took 10 shots to get 8 hits.

 

[TxUplander]

Im not making assumptions, just observations. And as with most things, it all depends on the situation. People tend to cherry pick their arguments to fit their ideas and not look at the big picture.

Coat pocket? Maybe. Pants pocket? No way. And if youre 3' away and your hand is in your pocket either way, my first thought would be to do my best to trap that hand in that pocket and try and control things from there. Youre basically a one-armed man at that point, and why wouldn't I? You?

Not every response calls for a gun, or at least not immediately. You may need to do something else in order to gain a better advantage.

You say you "feel confident" shooting like that, but have you actually done it repetitively in practice to know it will in fact work and work well every time? Me, personally, Id rather try and scoot offline and draw and shoot as I go, and know Ill get decent hits, rather than try and be tricky, and just wing it and hope.

It seems too, that a lot of people seem to think you cant easily conceal a full sized handgun, at any time of year or in most places, and still be able to quickly get it into action, and have to go with a lesser compromise. You dont, or at least, I dont. Im not against small revolvers as a BUG, I can see they can have a place there, I just dont see them as a primary gun. And truthfully, Ive come to prefer and use one of my 26's for that role anyway. Basically the same size gun, with twice the onboard ammo, and can be much more gun if need be.

And by all means, do what you feel best. Our choices are our choices, for whatever reason, its just I wonder sometimes why some choices are made, and what drove the thinking behind those choices. Was it made from what was learned and bore out in practice, or just something that seems like a good idea at the time, with no other basis than that?

you continue to argue that the assailant will have some form of “training” based on your own “what i would do”. If someone trained sneaks up on you, you dont have a snowballs chance in hell regardless of your chosen carry practice so no use in arguing that point. Ill tell you what. Since you insist on my theory being wrong, ill donate a cheap jacket to test it out. Ill video the excursion to include time, hits/misses, and follies if they occur. You do the same with your technique and we will compare notes.
I noticed you also made an assumption that if i were in the situation, id stand there like a statue while i spray and pray from my pocket. After the initial shot (that will be MUCH faster than yours) i would also be looking for cover and concealment. Yes, Your gun is drawn. What will you do with it while running away? Are you pretty effective shooting over your shoulder? I think i could remove my gun from my pocket while retreating to cover without issue. We have a difference of “theory” but im assuming yours hasnt been put to practice either.
Like mike tyson says, “everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face”! Ive done realistic training with wax a rubber bullets using simulators and actual “active shooters”. I can tell you those things HURT. They take training to another level, but alas, thats not really what we are discussing here.

 

[trackskippy]

So wheres that leave you if you only have 5?

Id be willing to bet, most all of us are all legends in our own minds when we talk about this stuff, and not quite that legend when called on to shoot "on demand" when someone asks. And thats when things and heart rates are calm.

The best you really are, is what you do, in the moment, when someone says to you, "show me". It just is what it is.

If you think all you have to do is put that gun in a pocket or holster and youre good to go, based on what you do in slow fire "target shooting", youre seriously deceiving yourself. You dont get good by talking or thinking about it. Just to get reasonably good, takes a lot of hard work and live ammo. Trick shooting takes even more.

 

[TxUplander]

So wheres that leave you if you only have 5?

Id be willing to bet, most all of us are all legends in our own minds when we talk about this stuff, and not quite that legend when called on to shoot "on demand" when someone asks. And thats when things and heart rates are calm.

The best you really are, is what you do, in the moment, when someone says to you, "show me". It just is what it is.

If you think all you have to do is put that gun in a pocket or holster and youre good to go, based on what you do in slow fire "target shooting", youre seriously deceiving yourself. You dont get good by talking or thinking about it. Just to get reasonably good, takes a lot of hard work and live ammo. Trick shooting takes even more.

Ill just concede now that you are absolutely right and its indisputable. I already offered to test my theory against your own and that was skirted so i dont see there is much left for me to say. ‍

 

[trackskippy]

you continue to argue that the assailant will have some form of “training” based on your own “what i would do”. If someone trained sneaks up on you, you dont have a snowballs chance in hell regardless of your chosen carry practice so no use in arguing that point. Ill tell you what. Since you insist on my theory being wrong, ill donate a cheap jacket to test it out. Ill video the excursion to include time, hits/misses, and follies if they occur. You do the same with your technique and we will compare notes.
I noticed you also made an assumption that if i were in the situation, id stand there like a statue while i spray and pray from my pocket. After the initial shot (that will be MUCH faster than yours) i would also be looking for cover and concealment. Yes, Your gun is drawn. What will you do with it while running away? Are you pretty effective shooting over your shoulder? I think i could remove my gun from my pocket while retreating to cover without issue. We have a difference of “theory” since im assuming yours hasnt been put to practice either.

All Im saying is, dont assume you have it all figured out, especially if you've never actually done it before. The only way to know what actually happens in any given situation is after the fact.

The only real question here is, are you truly as prepared as you can be, for whatever you might get? Thats it. The only person youre fooling here if youre not, is yourself. You either continue to work at it or you dont, that is what it is too.

Everyone wins that gunfight they run over and over in their head and like to throw out as a scenario. Its all the others you havent even given a thought to that will bite you in the ass. Do you only practice for that one thing you think youll win, or as many other things as you can so you have a chance at doing better should something different pops up? I know you cant possibly practice for everything, but everything you do work on, is something else you have in the bank, to deal with other things that might come up. They may not be exactly the same, but youll be light years ahead of those who only practice one thing, one way.

Love to see that coat shoot too.

 

[TxUplander]

All Im saying is, dont assume you have it all figured out, especially if you've never actually done it before. The only way to know what actually happens in any given situation is after the fact.

The only real question here is, are you truly as prepared as you can be, for whatever you might get? Thats it. The only person youre fooling here if youre not, is yourself. You either continue to work at it or you dont, that is what it is too.

Everyone wins that gunfight they run over and over in their head and like to throw out as a scenario. Its all the others you havent even given a thought to that will bite you in the ass. Do you only practice for that one thing you think youll win, or as many other things as you can so you have a chance at doing better should something different pops up? I know you cant possibly practice for everything, but everything you do work on, is something else you have in the bank, to deal with other things that might come up. They may not be exactly the same, but youll be light years ahead of those who only practice one thing, one way.

Love to see that coat shoot too.

we are talking about a single scenario and not the need for training as a whole.

 

[Kleanbore]

A concealed hammer snub can be fired from a jacket pocket. The usefulness of that strategy is extremely limited, and it's a high risk/low return gambit. Consider the following:

• It is useful only at extremely close distances
• The likelihood of hitting close to where one wants to hit in order to effect a timely physical stop is very low, even with a stationary target
• Moving off-line is much harder to do, and iwould increase the distance (which is one reason we do it)
• It is far more difficult to turn the body quickly to hit a moving assailant than it is to move one's free shooting arm to track the target
• The gases from the barrel-cylinder gap will likely burn through the pocket and shirt and cause injury
• Pocket carry is best done with a pocket hoister, which should cover the trigger

The circumstances in which "stealth" would be desirable when one is being attacked would be very limited.

It has been discussed from time to time as a possible strategy for vey limited circumstances, but we do not see it in realistic defensive pistol training.

I cannot imagine why I would want to practice it.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

Just out of curiosity here, but how many here who pocket carry, actually practice at the range "from the pocket" when they shoot? Hand on the gun, and more realistically, starting from hands off? And if you do, how well do you do with a little stress added to the mix?

Id be willing to bet too, from a "startle" start, I'll clear my shirt, fleece, anorak, ect, and have the gun out and running before you get the gun out of your pocket.

I practice both with a J frame, and for me, it's pretty simple. Starting with the hand on the gun, in the pocket, in a natural posture, I'm 1/2 second faster than AIWB to the first hit at 7 yards, one handed.

Starting with the hand off the gun, in the pocket, I'm over a second slower than AIWB.

Can't answer any stress question, because I only practice against a timer. And, I do not pocket carry...just flirting with the idea at this point.

Edit: I wan't clear here. I was drawing from the pocket on the timer...not shooting through it.

 

[TxUplander]

A concealed hammer snub can be fired from a jacket pocket. The usefulness of that strategy is extremely limited, and it's a high risk/low return gambit. Consider the following:

• It is useful only at extremely close distances
• The likelihood of hitting close to where one wants to hit in order to effect a timely physical stop is very low, even with a stationary target
• Moving off-line is much harder to do, and iwould increase the distance (which is one reason we do it)
• It is far more difficult to turn the body quickly to hit a moving assailant than it is to move one's free shooting arm to track the target
• The gases from the barrel-cylinder gap will likely burn through the pocket and shirt and cause injury
• Pocket carry is best done with a pocket hoister, which should cover the trigger

The circumstances in which "stealth" would be desirable when one is being attacked would be very limited.

It has been discussed from time to time as a possible strategy for vey limited circumstances, but we do not see it in realistic defensive pistol training.

I cannot imagine why I would want to practice it.

AGAIN, i gave a single scenario and never said it was the end all be all of CC. I am more comfortable sending my wife out into the world with a revolver so thats what i do. “YOU DO YOU”. Im going to make a video of “pocket shooting” for grins and giggles. We will see how it goes.

 

[Kleanbore]

AGAIN, i gave a single scenario and never said it was the end all be all of CC.

That is precisely my point. Ambush by one or two assailants who come from any direction and attack from different distances, moving quickly, covers an infinite number of possible scenatros, any of which is more probable than one assailant turning into a threat while standing three feet in front of you.

That's why almost all defensive training drills, whether centered on stationary targets or FoF drills with moving assailants that shoot back with Simunitions, are based on varied ambush scenarios and involve the use of semi-autos with capacities that exceed five rounds; OWB holsters; turning toward the target(s) and moving off-line before stopping to fire; and firing several rounds very rapidly.

A good revolver with good sights and a smooth DA pull, carried in a proper holster, would not be a bad defensive firearm for those who are skilled with them, but most of the recognized instructors ask their students to bring something else.

If you want to spend time concentrating on your very limited "single scenario", go ahead. I think you are fooling yourself.

 

[TxUplander]

“That is precisely my point. Ambush by one or two assailants who come from any direction and attack from different distances, moving quickly, covers an infinite number of possible scenatros, any of which is more probable than one assailant turning into a threat while standing three feet in front of you.”


Its you who is being “fooled” if you think you are going to do much about a couple guys AMBUSHING you! I would imagine that most robberies or car jackings are more of a “surprise” than “ambush”. someone wanting your money or your keys gives you a viable reason to get into your pocket without your actions seeming “fervent”. Do you carry your wallet or keys in the wasteband of your pants underneath your clothes? Going there will cause an action prior to your reaction. You may be fast, bit you arent THAT FAST. One indisputable fact is that confidence will help you come out the other side alive. Do what makes YOU confident in the outcome.

its all theory or conjecture…..unless youd like to share some of your PERSONAL gun battles with us.

 

[Kleanbore]

Its you who is being “fooled” if you think you are going to do much about a couple guys AMBUSHING you!

That's what we train for, and that's why we carry. They may come from around their truck, from an alley opening, from behind a parked car--and if we have not been alert enough to react to them timely, the gun won't help us.

I would imagine that most robberies or car jackings are more of a “surprise” than “ambush”.

You say tomahto, I say tomato.

I would endeavor, by knowing what is going on around me, to recognize and react to a violent criminal attack as I have been trained, before the assailant ever gets close enough to ssk for my wallet.

Now, if an armed assailant is able to initiate the encounter at a distance of three feet and asks for my wallet or my keys, he's going to get them. Putting a bullet somewhere in him is much more likely to cause him to shoot than it is to prevent him from doing so.

We have had numerous discussions on how to avoid carjacking. They all center around keeping the carjacker from gaining the advantage in the first place.

Good tactics are about much more than drawing and shooting.

 

[TxUplander]

Again, we are talking about theory and conjecture. You train for something that has never happened to you? How many people are shot or stabbed AFTER relinquishing the keys and wallet? If someone wants to threaten my life, ill kindly “shoot first and ask questions later”. Going in circles here isnt going to change a thing.

 

[Old Dog]

I also feel CONFIDENT in saying i could engage a target at 3’ from a pocket, not only faster, but also with much more stealth, than you could clear, draw, and engage.

Gosh, it's too bad the OP was asking about pocket carry in a front pants pocket, not a jacket pocket.

You disagree?

I'm not gonna agree here.

Make your video, and hopefully you won't set your jacket on fire.

 

[TxUplander]

Big difference in a pants pocket vs a jacket pocket or purse for sure. I know i could clear and shoot quicker out of a carry holster than pants pocket, but when i make my video, ill try to clear my pants pocket “stealthily”. If someone has you dead to rights and is already drawn down on you, you wont clear ANY version of carry before they can end the fight. Thats my argument: not having to clear the weapon before firing. It gives YOU the drop and element of surprise. We are talking very worst case scenarios of life where even the winners can be losers when it all comes out in the wash.

 

[Old_Grouch]

Well, nothing new here. I'm waiting for the OP to state how he will overcome the known performance differences in shooting the snubbies? If not, then I'm little interested if 5 misses are enough.

5 misses are just as effective as 17 misses. Anyone who carries a gun and assumes they're going to miss if they have to shoot should probably develop a self defense plan that doesn't involve high speed projectiles.