5-Shot Snub: Enough Gun?

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5 misses are just as effective as 17 misses. Anyone who carries a gun and assumes they're going to miss if they have to shoot should probably develop a self defense plan that doesn't involve high speed projectiles.
C'mon, man. Don't you watch any movies or TV shows? Everyone knows that after you've emptied the cylinder or magazine (don't you hate it when you hear the sound of a clicking trigger and the slide's not locked back if it's an auto?) and missed with every shot, you then throw the handgun at your adversary.
 
Again, we are talking about theory and conjecture.
We are discussing well developed tactics and skillsets that reflect real-world experience and events, and have for a very long time.
. You train for something that has never happened to you?
Yes indeed. So do fighter pilots.
Again, we are talking about theory and conjecture. You train for something that has never happened to you? How many people are shot or stabbed AFTER relinquishing the keys and wallet?
The answer to the question of weahter to comply or to resist depends on the assessment of the likely outcome. If indications are that compliance will lead to getting shot, resistance is indicated. If resistance is more likely to precipitate shooting that would likely not have occurred but for the attempt to resist, compliance is the wiser alternative.
If someone wants to threaten my life, ill kindly “shoot first and ask questions later”.
I hope it works for you, and that you are the one who is asking questions later.
It appears to me that you may under impression that shooting someone with a handgun is likely to disable him instantly. It doesn't work that way. It may be what causes him to pull the trigger.
 
5 misses are just as effective as 17 misses. Anyone who carries a gun and assumes they're going to miss if they have to shoot should probably develop a self defense plan that doesn't involve high speed projectiles.
Anyone who assumes that they wont ever miss, probably should too. ;)

If you want a realistic assessment there, just go back and look at the police hit ratios back when they all carried revolvers. I believe a 25% hit ratio, was about the average.

Now, assuming youre at a level of your average "trained" cop, what do you suppose yours might be?
 
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Since I've trained up on both types, that's a non-sequitur. If you shoot a great deal, you should be aware that you can miss. If you assume that you will always hit and are part of the cohort without realistic training, then you don't know what you are talking about.
 
We are discussing well developed tactics and skillsets that reflect real-world experience and events, and have for a very long time.
So your view is predicated strictly on what others say you should be doing?
Yes indeed. So do fighter pilots.
And so do i, but dont tell me im wrong because ive never been in the situation to put my theories to test. have you?
The answer to the question of weahter to comply or to resist depends on the assessment of the likely outcome. If indications are that compliance will lead to getting shot, resistance is indicated. If resistance is more likely to precipitate shooting that would likely not have occurred but for the attempt to resist, compliance is the wiser alternative.
I can see where your ability to read minds and intent could come in VERY handy. Where did you get this “training”? My years as an LEO taught me that thinking you have a “read” on someone can be an exercise in folly.
I hope it works for you, and that you are the one who is asking questions later.
It appears to me that you may under impression that shooting someone with a handgun is likely to disable him instantly. It doesn't work that way. It may be what causes him to pull the trigger.
Again, making assumptions about someones training, experience, and skill level.
The scenarios that i envision my wife, or any other person not intimately familiar with their weapons, encountering dictate a hammerless revolver be the optimum defensive weapon. This is MY OPINION ONLY.
 
You can fire any of them that way, and maybe they will, maybe they wont, but whats it really matter if you aren't making good hits with each shot? Just making noise and destroying clothing and accessories doesnt count. ;)


Sure they do, dont do anything that needlessly escalates things. And my 17 carried AIWB doesnt show any more than most things in a pocket holster, and in a lot of cases, even less. ;)

The only way this works with pocket carry, is if you walk around with your hand in your pocket on the gun the whole time, which in itself looks a bit odd, especially if its not cold out, and who does that? I dont know about you, but someone I dont know who is walking towards me on the street and putting their hand in their pocket, tends to get at least some of my attention. That in itself is as good a flag as sweeping a cover garment.

To me, pocket carry is more limiting than practical, and even more so if you look at it from a realistic standpoint, and not just cherry pick a couple of things that look like they "might" work.

Just out of curiosity here, but how many here who pocket carry, actually practice at the range "from the pocket" when they shoot? Hand on the gun, and more realistically, starting from hands off? And if you do, how well do you do with a little stress added to the mix?

Id be willing to bet too, from a "startle" start, I'll clear my shirt, fleece, anorak, ect, and have the gun out and running before you get the gun out of your pocket.

Some Yes, No & Maybe scattered throughout that. ;)

This is similar to looking at distilled statistics averaged across the whole of the country when it comes to shot/hit 'ratios' of LE. Not really intended to be taken and rigidly applied at any particular local spot on the map. How the hell would anyone presume to predict whether such broad averaged results would apply at any specific spot?

It can be be useful for helping identify trends in training (or the lack thereof), as well as situations that may put more cops behind the curve in any particular situation. That may be useful in addressing, developing and revising training and assessment protocols (quals).

Anybody can be caught on the wrong wrong foot when an exigent situations happens, and it only takes a scant moment for someone to be so far behind in their own OODA Loop that they can't practically apply their carefully honed training skills. And this doesn't even begin to take into consideration having your 'moment of warning' being on the receiving end of an injury that further hinders your ability to respond.

If your first response when startled by any sudden, exigent situation is to reach for a concealed weapon ... your response might only be appropriate if a (lawfully) drawn weapon is 'the answer'. Loud noises that make the lizard brain look for cover just aren't often gun shots in the broadest sense. Even people accustomed to hearing gun shots can find themselves having to take a moment to work through the "Orient" part of the OODA Loop when it comes to hearing gun shots outside a range environment (or a hunting environment?).

Never discount the innate mental software that produces the "Freeze, Flight or Fight" response. Sure, sufficient training and recurrent practice may help ease accessing ingrained (learned) physical responses, but that training is usually done in a special training environment, and it may take a moment to get past the startled/this can't be happening for real emotional reaction. Besides, some folks might be quite surprised (and dismayed?) by whether or not they experience that Freeze response reaction, and how long it may last.

Training may help alleviate a whole host of things, but a lifetime of acting otherwise can also exert an influence at the damnedest of times. There might be a lot less motor vehicles collisions if people could just instantly react and do exactly the right thing, you know? Why would using a firearm as a dedicated defensive weapon be different. And ... most people drive their cars & trucks every day ... but aren't using/operating their guns every day. ;)

Life is a whole slew of instances of being able to navigate fine lines and not trip and stumble over them. :)
 
So your view is predicated strictly on what others say you should be doing?
No.
I can see where your ability to read minds and intent could come in VERY handy
Let me rephrase my comment. Shooting someone who is pointing a gun at you is a very good way to cause him to pull the trigger.
Again, making assumptions about someones training, experience, and skill level.
No amount of training and experience can ensure that gunshot wounds will prevent involuntary or immediate voluntary muscle movements of a trigger finger.
The scenarios that i envision my wife, or any other person not intimately familiar with their weapons, encountering dictate a hammerless revolver be the optimum defensive weapon.
There is a lot to be said for that. We chose a 6 shot Kimber K6a.
 
After reading 13 pages of this, I think Hollywood is missing out on a lot of great script writers. Bet a lot of you killed it as D&D Dungeon Masters in your Mom’s basement.
 
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After reading 13 pages of this, I think Hollywood is missing out on a lot of great script writers.
Well, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express the other night...

C'mon, you know you're as anxious as the rest of us to see the new guy's video with him shooting his snub through jacket pockets!

We're only up to 13 pages; we got to 16 pages the last time we did this. Pikers.

So, I've lived in states where it was optional to get uninsured motorist coverage. Every year, I'd think, what're the odds? Let's lower the premiums. Driving since 1972 and finally needed it (got hit by an ill... er, undocumented immigrant who fled the scene) was glad I had it, saved my huge deductible. It's like a poster earlier who said he'd been carrying a personal defense firearm for around 60 years and never needed one round, much less five. I've learned never to say never.

The old saw that bears repeating: it's not the odds, it's the stakes.
 
No.
Let me rephrase my comment. Shooting someone who is pointing a gun at you is a very good way to cause him to pull the trigger.
No amount of training and experience can ensure that gunshot wounds will prevent involuntary or immediate voluntary muscle movements of a trigger finger.
And that fact applies regardless of your carry preferences…..which is what we are debating.
There is a lot to be said for that. We chose a 6 shot Kimber K6a.
 
Well, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express the other night...

C'mon, you know you're as anxious as the rest of us to see the new guy's video with him shooting his snub through jacket pockets!

We're only up to 13 pages; we got to 16 pages the last time we did this. Pikers.

So, I've lived in states where it was optional to get uninsured motorist coverage. Every year, I'd think, what're the odds? Let's lower the premiums. Driving since 1972 and finally needed it (got hit by an ill... er, undocumented immigrant who fled the scene) was glad I had it, saved my huge deductible. It's like a poster earlier who said he'd been carrying a personal defense firearm for around 60 years and never needed one round, much less five. I've learned never to say never.

The old saw that bears repeating: it's not the odds, it's the stakes.
The “new guy” will gladly provide the video for your viewing enjoyment. What will the “old dog” provide?
The old saw that bears repeating: those that can do and those that cant teach……and talk about it on interweb forums!
 
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Popcorn?
Pretty sure you'll see at least some smoking, smoldering cloth (maybe some melted nylon?)

If you want to discredit someone elses opinion, you should provide more than popcorn. Evidence perhaps? I may even see if the wife has an old purse i can use for testing purposes. That should really blow your mind!
 
And that fact applies regardless of your carry preferences…..which is what we are debating.
We have been discussing the idea of shooting an armed robber through a jacket pocket at a distance of three feet.
 
We have been discussing the idea of shooting an armed robber through a jacket pocket at a distance of three feet.
If he is shot through a jacket pocket at 3’ or from a drawn sidearm at 10’, does it make a difference in your argument?
 
If he is shot through a jacket pocket at 3’ or from a drawn sidearm at 10’, does it make a difference in your argument?
Yes. The hit would be more likely, multiple hits mith be accomplished, and and ihis hit probability would be lower.

That might well change the calculus on the comply/resist decision materially.

The increased distance would also eliminate some close quarter combat defensive options.
 
Yes. The hit would be more likely, multiple hits mith be accomplished, and and ihis hit probability would be lower.

That might well change the calculus on the comply/resist decision materially.

The increased distance would also eliminate some close quarter combat defensive options.
Your initial argument was that a handgun bullet might not be immediately lethal or incapacitating allowing or even encouraging return fire. Thats no longer your argument?
 
Ill defer to the resident experts with far more experience than myself to finish the debate. I will post the video of my own testing ASAP. Im heading out for a few days in the morning so i suspect it will be next weekend before i can provide any evidence to either back or break my theory.
 
Looks like someone has been there and done that. His video kind of “says” it all, but im sure there will still be plenty of nay sayers.
 
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