I would agree. One of the problems with the 6.5 CM and steel matches is that it's hard to confirm hits on steel at long range. I don't have that problem with my AI chambered in .338 LM. I'll use the 6.5 CM for paper punching and ringing steel but the .338 Lapua for everything else since the Lapua beats the 6.5 CM everywhere with the exception of weight and cost.
6.5 Creedmore instead of .308?
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I would agree. One of the problems with the 6.5 CM and steel matches is that it's hard to confirm hits on steel at long range. I don't have that problem with my AI chambered in .338 LM. I'll use the 6.5 CM for paper punching and ringing steel but the .338 Lapua for everything else since the Lapua beats the 6.5 CM everywhere with the exception of weight and cost.
COLOSHOOTR
Member
These may be true for benchrest but in the PRS Matches most are getting twice that if not slightly more maintaining sub MOA accuracy. The 6.5 CM will get the same barrel life as a 260 Rem for those wondering..... Two totally different niches in shooting but figured I'd throw it out there for those looking for practical accuracy and not benchrest accuracy.
I'd still say Sub MOA based on what I've seen but then again I'm not a benchrest shooter and I am only a tactical / practical match type shooter. We have put 20 rounds on a full IPSC at 1250 all clustered in the center 2/3 of the target so I think it's fair to say 3/4 MOA or less.
I really don't think 6.5 is hard to confirm hits on at all. I can hear a 6.5 round ring steel clearly at 1250 yards without problem and there is still movement of the target. Not nearly what a .338 LM would be but still obvious to the point there is no question of a hit or miss. Now the 6mm offerings are a different story and those light bullets can be a challenge to hear or see in all but ideal conditions. That's why some arguments were started with RO's at the Hide Cup last year as 6mm shooters were sure of the hits but the RO's didn't see them.....
COLOSHOOTR
Member
Yeah I am cheating and shooting suppressed most of the time. I usually still have my ear pro in unless it just happens to be my friend and I and we are running nothing but our long guns. I still usually hear the 6.5 hits just fine with the ear pro on. The 6mm and 223 are a different story depending on the steel set up and I've had to drive down and check for 223 hits before. I think you are just spoiled with the loud ringing that everyone at the range can hear with that .338 LM. That's just jealousy speaking though because I want one! Someday I'll get a AXMC in .338 LM....
HA! HA!
Probaby true and yes, the AXMC would be awesome for sure. I'm "stuck" with three legacy AI AWs with no plans to upgrade since I prefer the thumbhole stock and don't care enough about CIP load lengths. As for the range, I shoot at my house out to 1,300 yards so I'm usually the only one that gets to hear it .... maybe some neighbors too I suppose. Like you I shoot mostly suppressed so get to hear just about everything.
Bobson
Member
I don't have a dog in this fight, but while I've seen the claim you made (and have no reason to believe it's untrue) several times before, nobody ever says anything about the overall representation of both calibers. If 60% of the entries are 6.5, and 40% are 308, then the fact that 6.5 is winning more matches is just a result of the odds.
Worse, I could flip the data to represent my own interest by pointing out to a rookie that most guys shooting 6.5 are losing the matches they're in, and it would be 100% true, despite the fact that it means absolutely nothing in regards to the design efficacy of the caliber.
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I just calculated the center 2/3ds of the ISPC target (less the head) and got about 1.3 MOA at 1250 yards. Used 2/3rds of its width and height to get a diagonal line that long across that rectangle.
While all the best 26, 28 and 30 caliber rifles used in competition will keep all of their 20 to 30 shots, properly tested, inside 6 inches at 1000 yards, the 26 caliber ones finally out scored the larger ones because they had less recoil and could be shot hand held by humans more precisely. First one to do so enough to win over the others was the 6.5x.284 and it's still popular.
While all the best 26, 28 and 30 caliber rifles used in competition will keep all of their 20 to 30 shots, properly tested, inside 6 inches at 1000 yards, the 26 caliber ones finally out scored the larger ones because they had less recoil and could be shot hand held by humans more precisely. First one to do so enough to win over the others was the 6.5x.284 and it's still popular.
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Bobson, all you have to do is compare typical match loads for .308 Win to typical 6.5 Creedmoor loads using your favorite ballistic calculator. To me it's all about the difference in error made by the same shooter using either platform. At 1,000 yards, a 2 mph error in wind speed estimation equates to about 57% more error on target for a .308 Win 175gr SMK compared to a 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr ELD Match. To me that's significant. If that's not enough, consider all of the .308 Win shooters that have switched to 6.5mm and then see how many 6.5mm shooters who have switched, or who are thinking of switching, to .308 Win. With my AI AW I'm able to switch back and forth between .308 Win and 6.5 CM in about 10 minutes. Last year I took a nice mule deer buck at 341 yards with the AI using the .308 Win barrel. If I use that rifle again this year for elk or deer I'll certainly put the .308 Win barrel back on since I won't be paper punching out to 1,000 yards.
Bobson
Member
Is that a rhetorical question? I would have thought you'd be among those best suited to answer that question.
What else is going into it besides BC? I thought that was the biggest factor.
I think you'd need to be north of 200gr for such a bullet, something like a Berger 200gr Hybrid Target, and I'd have to wonder at the muzzle velocity. I used to shoot a 178gr A-MAX in F-Class and the MV from a 26" barrel was 2,650 fps which was at the upper end for a bullet of that weight. How fast could you push a 200gr bullet out of a 24" barrel since that's the length of my 6.5 Creedmoor barrel?
COLOSHOOTR
Member
I looked at the Berger site and you're right on the money. It would take a 200gr match hybrid to get the BC of the 140gr 6.5 bullet. My 308 barrel is 20" and I get 2650 out of it pushing it to the edge of what is a safe load. Per the Hornady manual data got the 208gr Amax max loads have a average velocity between 2300-2400fps but that is probably going to be tough to get based on case capacity as you'll easily be getting a compressed load.
The 6.5 CM at 2760fps (moderate load as some get up over 2800fps) with a .601 G1 140gr has 6.1 mils of drop (175 inches) with a 1.5 mil wind hold (43.7 inches) at 800 yards with a 10 mph full value crosswind.
A .308 at 2350fps using a 200gr bullet with a .620 G1 has 8.7 mils drop (250 inches ) wit a 1.9 mil wind hold (53.5 inches) in the same full value 10 mph cross at 800 yards.
The 6.5 still out performs. A 30-06 or .300 Win mag will do better with the added benefit of more recoil but I remember seeing the data was not that far off between the 6.5 CM and .300 win mag and you get less recoil with the 6.5.
I read a interesting article by Bryan Litz one time about the sweet spot for performance along the different calibers as a reason to go 6.5 or 6mm and over .308. I'll have to find it and post it.
razorback2003
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What is the real advantage of 6.5 creedmoor over 260? Does it look like the 6.5 creedmoor will be more popular than 260? I'm not seeing much 6.5 creedmoor ammo out there. I see a little 260 ammo every now and then. I know a lot of the guys who shoot high power matches like to use Lapua brass and Lapua does not make 6.5 creedmoor brass. Does it look like Lapua will make 6.5 creedmoor in the near future?
COLOSHOOTR
Member
Performance wise they are near identical. The real advantages are...
Factory support as well as Hornady standing behind it and marketing it unlike Remington who let the .260 become sort of a wild cat with little factory support. Also, the availability of quality accurate factory match ammo at reasonable (for match ammo) price point. Quality match .260 is usually expensive semi custom stuff that will cost you pretty penny. You also see more factory 6.5 CM rifles available especially at the big box stores (Savage and Ruger both have 6.5 CM's on the shelf at Cabelas), where the .260 has very few factory rifles chambered for it and those are harder to come by unless you shop at a specialty type shop like MHSA that caters to the long range shooters.
Nosler started making 6.5 CM brass and if I were a betting man I would bet Lapua will be making it within the next couple years the way it's kind of taken off. I was actually surprised they didn't announce it at shot this year to tell you the truth. It may have more to do with rights from Hornady and Creedmoor holding it up because the popularity is there.
Back in the day when Sierra 200-gr. HPMK's were popular in .308 rifles for long range matches, the max load was 48 grains of IMR4350 pushing them out at 2500 fps from 24" to 26" barrels. Therefore, I think that load will equal the wind drift the 6.5 CM has with a 140.
I think a 20" barrel getting 2650 with a 200 grain bullet from a .308 Win case does so with pressures much higher than SAAMI spec. Was that load's pressure measured with a piezo transducer system calibrated for the barrel used to verify its safety?
My query on what would drift be with a .308 Win bullet with equal BC was put out to get readers to think about how two different calibers and bullet weights should be compared for wind drift. Some elements of both have to be the same else it's not a realistic comparison. Where in the various bullet weight ranges for each cartridge do those specific ones reside? I think a 30 caliber 200 to 210 grain bullet is about the same place in the spectrum as a 26 caliber 140 to 145 grain bullet.
I think a 20" barrel getting 2650 with a 200 grain bullet from a .308 Win case does so with pressures much higher than SAAMI spec. Was that load's pressure measured with a piezo transducer system calibrated for the barrel used to verify its safety?
My query on what would drift be with a .308 Win bullet with equal BC was put out to get readers to think about how two different calibers and bullet weights should be compared for wind drift. Some elements of both have to be the same else it's not a realistic comparison. Where in the various bullet weight ranges for each cartridge do those specific ones reside? I think a 30 caliber 200 to 210 grain bullet is about the same place in the spectrum as a 26 caliber 140 to 145 grain bullet.
Another possible advantage of the 6.5 Creedmoor from a reloading standpoint is that you can get the bullet ogive of heavy bullets (140gr) very close to the lands or even into the lands, still have the entire length of case neck making contact with the bearing surface of the bullet, and still have the loaded round fit inside a standard .308 Win magazine. You don't always have that option with rifles chambered for .260 Remington. From a ballistic standpoint, the .260 Rem starts to lose ground to the 6.5 CM with heavier (longer) bullets since the bullet needs to be pushed further back into the case thereby using up some of the extra volume that can be used for powder with lighter bullets.
As for Lapua making brass for the 6.5 Creedmoor .... I can't see them not making brass. They're going to lose money if they don't. 6.5x47 Lapua fanatics aren't going to switch to 6.5 Creedmoor so they won't lose that market. Maybe some current .260 Rem shooters will switch to 6.5 CM but it's all those new shooters thinking of which 6.5 caliber cartridge to go with that they need to win over with Lapua brass.
Kimber offers a number of rifles chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor including two tacticals, an Adirondack with an 18" barrel, a Mountain Ascent (2016) and a Montana (2016).
COLOSHOOTR
Member
48 grains? Wow that's a lot of powder! I do not use that powder at all but I know I could not fit that much Varget or RL15 in the case.
A 200gr bullet at 2650 in a 20" would be way over pressure. I was talking about the 178gr AMax (or 175gr SMK) like MCMXI.
You're right the money there. The 200gr is about where Litz said the .30 caliber needed to be to be in the sweet spot performance wise.
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razorback2003
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Yeah you would think if the 6.5 creedmoor cartridge is becoming more popular than 260 that you would see different brass makers start making the brass to sell, especially lapua. Lapua makes 300 blackout and 6.5 grendel, so you would think that Lapua would make 6.5 creedmoor.
COLOSHOOTR
Member
That's why I has questions about the charge weight he posted that was actually 48 grains. I don't see that much powder fitting in a .308. My .308 load is 44gr of Varget, getting 2650fps out of my 20" Lohar Walther barrel, and that's at the point of being slightly compressed too. 48 grains wouldn't fit in the case with room for a bullet. Maybe it can be pulled off if your chaber has a large freebore to really get that bullet out there without jamming it into the lands. You'd likely have to single feed and you wouldn't be able to magazine feed making it worthless for most of us out there. I think a 200gr bullet in a .308 isn't really worth the trouble for target shooting. If it's for hunting a 30-06 or .300 Win mag would be better and negate the need for the heavy .308.
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Whiskey11
Member
Really the only advantage .308 has is cost related. It is a lot easier and cheaper to buy .308 ammo (although 6.5CM is getting common where I'm at), barrels last nearly forever, and the rifles are generally easier to find and less expensive.
I suppose you could argue that if you get REALLY good at shooting a .308 you will be much better prepared for shooting a 6.5CM since you'll be really good at wind estimation and range estimation by the end of your ordeal with .308!
I think .308 is an amazing round for what it was intended to do. It does so in a platform that can save me money in the long run with acceptable accuracy. Is it the best? Nope! It sure does work for basically everything to 1000 yards though!
I suppose you could argue that if you get REALLY good at shooting a .308 you will be much better prepared for shooting a 6.5CM since you'll be really good at wind estimation and range estimation by the end of your ordeal with .308!
I think .308 is an amazing round for what it was intended to do. It does so in a platform that can save me money in the long run with acceptable accuracy. Is it the best? Nope! It sure does work for basically everything to 1000 yards though!
COLOSHOOTR
Member
Costs are not too far off now though. Midway sells the newest ELD 140gr 6.5 CM for $28.99 per box and Gold Medal Match .308 175gr SMK is $26.79. Locally I've even seen the 6.5 CM cheaper with Hornady at $28.99 and Federal GMM .308 at $29.99. Component wise the 6.5 CM brass is more expensive but the bullets are cheaper than .308. Primer and powder are the same. In the long run they will almost equal out.
.308 barrel life is the real winner and that is why it still is a good training caliber, prices being near equal. Plus, like you said you really learn wind holds with the .308!
Once rifle prices come down as popularity grows and when cheaper components are available the 6.5 CM could be a real home run for Hornady.
.308 barrel life is the real winner and that is why it still is a good training caliber, prices being near equal. Plus, like you said you really learn wind holds with the .308!
Once rifle prices come down as popularity grows and when cheaper components are available the 6.5 CM could be a real home run for Hornady.
Whiskey11 said:
I agree 100%. The .308 Win is my all-time favorite cartridge and probably always will be. Perhaps the trick is to do what I did and have a switch barrel system such as the AI or a Savage or similar. I can go back and forth between 6.5 CM and .308 Win in under 10 minutes. Once I've finished working up a load for the 6.5 CM barrel I could put the .308 Win back on and practice with that if I wanted to.
48 grains of IMR4350 packs easy in 150-grain .308 Win WCC58 or 156-grain WCC60 match cases. 47 grains in Remington BR cases (small rifle primer) weighing about 165 grains set a 600-yard record in 1992. It lets a 200-gr HPMK bullet be seated to a 2.9" cartridge OAL.
That load was well worth the trouble for matches. Tests had it shooting under 3 inches for 20 shots at 600 yards; about 5 inches at 1000.
That load was well worth the trouble for matches. Tests had it shooting under 3 inches for 20 shots at 600 yards; about 5 inches at 1000.
I think the county store has been out of WCC58 or WCC60 for the last couple of half centuries. I played around with the various 4350's to see just how they would do in my 308 Win match rifles and 190's. I was never able to get more than 47.0 grains in a case, some cases topped out at 46.5 grains. The better groups were nice but overall, the velocities were low and not worth bothering with. Maybe if the balloon head 308 cases were available I could get the velocities up to a reasonable range, but not with my cases.
Code:
[SIZE="3"]
[B]
M70 26" Kreiger Barrel, four groove, 1:10 twist [/B]
190 gr Speer Match 45.0 grs H4350 wt'd R-P cases Fed 210S
9 Mar 97 T=70F
Ave Vel =2301
Std Dev =24
ES = 65
Low = 2272
High = 2337
N = 5
190 gr Speer Match 46.0 grs H4350 wt'd R-P cases Fed 210S
9 Mar 97 T=70F
Ave Vel =2382
Std Dev = 17
ES = 36
Low = 2365
High = 2401
N = 6
190 gr Speer Match 47.5 grs H4350 wt'd R-P cases Fed 210S
30 April 97 T=72F
Ave Vel =2414
Std Dev =9
ES = 23
Low = 2402
High = 2425
N = 9
[B]
M70 24 " Douglas Barrel 1:10 twist [/B]
190 gr Speer Match 47.0 AA4350 wtd, R-P cases, Fed210s OAL 2.830"
30 Dec 1999 T = 58 °F
Ave Vel =2482
Std Dev =34
ES = 98
Low = 2434
High = 2532
N = 8
190 gr Speer Match 47.0 AA4350 wtd, R-P cases, Fed210s OAL 2.830"
21 Sept 04 T = 72° F
Ave Vel =2473
Std Dev =18
ES = 55
Low = 2447
High = 2502
N = 6
[B]Ruger M77 MKII 26 " Barrel 1:10 twist [/B]
190 Speer 47.0. grs IMR 4350 wtd Fed210S
Fed cases between 161 and 164.9 grs
17-Aug-06 T = 90 °F
Ave Vel =2407
Std Dev =5
ES = 11.24
High =2414
Low =2402
N = 4
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