7.62x25 Reinvigorated

[giggitygiggity]

Is it just me or do other people enjoy the 7.62x25 and would like to see some modern firearms chambered in it? It think it would be super cool to have a new designed pistol with a good trigger and ergonomics chambered in that Caliber. I have a couple Yugo M57s and a couple Romanian TTC pistols chambered in 7.62x25 and they are super soft shooters and very accurate albeit fairly old pistols.

I can't see why or how it would cost all that much more to make 7.62x25 than any of the other popular cartridges if the demand was there. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

 

[Deaf Smith]

"if the demand was there"

And that's the big 'if'.

There really is not that much demand for a handgun with a .30 cal 85 grain bullet at 1400 fps.

Sorry.

Deaf

 

[9 fingers]

I shot mine today and loved it, a Polish Radom Tokarev. And my ammo, Red Army and PRVI PPU, both claim 1700fps or so. Heck, there are many other lesser calibers out there.
9 fingers

 

[jhb]

Im a fan. Own a half dozen toks. Its niche though.

 

[tark]

I have one box of Wolf 7.62X25 that is loaded with 85 gr. hollow points. I would bet that might be a good self defense load.

It is a mystery to me why no one makes a 1911 chambered for that round.

 

[theothermike]

Ever hear of 9x25 Dillon? 2100 fps with a 90gr 9mm projectile

 

[Jim Watson]

It is a mystery to me why no one makes a 1911 chambered for that round.

OAL of the 7.62 is longer than the 1911 action and magazine are designed for.
Nobody is going to tool up for a new receiver just so you can shoot Iron Curtain surplus in something besides Iron Curtain guns.
(You can get a 7.62 barrel for your 9mm or .38 Super and apply various kluges to get it shooting, but that is not the same as a new production model pistol.)

Mystery solved.

 

[joem1945]

When the CZ52 first landed in the US I got one along with Chezk ammo> I chrono'd it at 1650 - 1700 FPS and it was accurate. The latest import stuff chrno's at 1350-1400 and the bullets mic at .305 to .307 dia. No wonder it's not accurate

 

[tark]

Magazines are cheap to make, Jim. And machining the magazine channel in the frame is no more difficult than changing the setting on the CNC Machine. I know, I worked for Les Baer for 21 years and Les would frequently do exactly that, to make it easier to fit parts. I fit frames to slides and Les changed dimensions a number of times to make it easier.

Some 1911 frames do not have enough metal in the front strap to allow a dimensional increase in the magazine channel. Baer frames do, I always believed we made frames with the thickest front straps of anyone. It would be very easy to make a 7.62X25 pistol out of one.

But the problem is demand, and I don't see it being there.

Joem45, the Winchester white box ammo (loaded in the Czech Republic!) chronos at around 1650. That's not weak!

 

[barnbwt]

Magazines are cheap to make

When you've got a market the size of 45acp's, maybe. There's demand, and there's demand. Plenty of demand for a Tok double stack poly striker, but the market is too small for a company like Glock to bother with (who ignored even single stack 9mms until now). Zastava sells quite a few of their new Tokarev pistols, which are nearly 1911s themselves (from a production standpoint), but have to go for the bargain set.

Good quality defense ammo exists and is competitvely priced (compared with, say, another niche round like SIG), yet no one steps up to the plate to make a quality, modern pistol to use it. The milsurp ammo everyone pretends is the missing ingredient for success, is in fact the only barrier stopping the rounds' popularity. The prevailing opinion is that only cheap SOBs will shoot Tokarev, therefore no one bothers making guns for it (even if the cheap days are gone, and the remaining users devoted fans have very good reasons to favor it.) Corrosive surplus simply gave the round a bad reputation as a poor business decision. They'll eventually realize that we'd pay good money for a quality SIG or 1911 or Glock in the chambering, and enough of us to support a small but respectable production line.

An aluminum core, poly tip Tokarev bullet with pre-frag jacket, loaded to full pressure, would be a hellacious defense round. That's why I'm designing a hesitation-locked "1911" that uses the round. Unsurprisingly, getting a suitable mag is the hardest part...

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

Ever hear of 9x25 Dillon? 2100 fps with a 90gr 9mm projectile

You give up quite a bit of capacity with that fat case head, and the added case volume makes for an even more ridiculously overbore situation (blast/flash) and the onset of stiff recoil. Tok is pretty easy shooting, and only a bit loud flashy (no worse than a typical "magnum" round, though)

TCB

 

[Monac]

OAL of the 7.62 is longer than the 1911 action and magazine are designed for.
Nobody is going to tool up for a new receiver just so you can shoot Iron Curtain surplus in something besides Iron Curtain guns.
(You can get a 7.62 barrel for your 9mm or .38 Super and apply various kluges to get it shooting, but that is not the same as a new production model pistol.)

Mystery solved.

I would have thought that this was the key point working against making more guns in 30 Tokarev, just as it was damaging to the 10mm and is damaging to the 9x25 Dillon. If 30 Luger could be souped up to the Tokarev level of performance....but it probably can't.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If 30 Luger could be souped up to the Tokarev level of performance....but it probably can't.

Actually since Cor-bon and Buffalo Bore as well as Double Tap have souped up the 9mm I bet they could make a +p+ .30 Luger.

Then in your Glock or SIG 9mm, just get an aftermarket barrel.

93 gr FMJ at 1,220 ft/s velocity is what it gets now. 9mm would get a 100 grainer at that velocity in standard loading so... they now put the 100gr 9mm at maybe 1400 from a 9mm Luger.

Bet a 93 gr. slug might reach 1400 to in the .30 Luger.

Deaf

 

[Jim Watson]

Magazines are cheap to make,

That would have been welcome news to Dixon and Dornaus.

And perhaps I underestimate ol Les' ingenuity, but a longer magazine well and several other components and contours rearranged to suit the longer round might have taken more CAM work than the likely sales would be worth.

Who's going to buy a $2000 gun to shoot cheap surplus?
Would somebody set up to make modern ammo for it?
Would customers buy both?
Apparently not, nobody has jumped into that market niche.

If you wanted a hot round that would fit existing platforms, neck down the 9x23. One gunsmith had a whole family of "Zipperers" on the basic brass.
It would cost less to build guns and no more to make ammo with noncorrosive primers and controlled expansion bullets.

 

[Lj1941]

7.62x25

I agree it is a neat little cartridge that really steps along. I love my M 57 Zastavia.It is a little bit of a PIA to load those 762x25 cartridges. I use 90 Hornady XTPs .309 diameter and Starline brass. I wish I had a chronograph but it is not on the horizon with today's economy. I enjoy shooting my load with 6.4 grains of Alliant Power Pistol or 7.2 of Blue Dot. There is not enough of a market as others have said.That little commie bloc pill is one of very few that will defeat Kevlar body armor and over-penetration is a real danger. It won't happen unless it is a custom built pistol!

 

[joneb]

As a reloader I would rather reload something with a straight case wall.
So I will pass on the 7.62x25, 357 Sig. ect...

 

[barnbwt]

And perhaps I underestimate ol Les' ingenuity, but a longer magazine well and several other components and contours rearranged to suit the longer round might have taken more CAM work than the likely sales would be worth.

I'm pretty sure Glocks are designed via spreadsheet now; simply punch in a cartridge, barrel length, grip length, and toggle the single/double stack button, and...the CAD dimensions all update themselves

That would have been welcome news to Dixon and Dornaus.

Heh heh heh ---Bren Ten magazine joke

"If you wanted a hot round that would fit existing platforms, neck down the 9x23"
But two more whole millimeters! Think of the possibilities!

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

Who's going to buy a $2000 gun to shoot cheap surplus?

You see this? That's what I was talking about; right there. Tokarev = cheap surplus in the minds of anyone who's been shooting longer than the past five years, ergo spending development money on the round is a fools' errand to anyone who's been shooting longer than the past five years. And now that the ammo is too expensive to simply waste thoughtlessly (it's merely "crappy" surplus now; hardly cheap) it makes even less sense to them --even though an awful lot of shooters frequently --no, constantly-- sing the cartridge's praises and lament the odd lack of new firearms and cartridge development.

It's not like Tokarev is a terribly rare round, or anything, it's just got this aura of "cheap SOB" surrounding it that scares away product development investment, even though similarish rounds like SIG and 5.7 have been comparatively stunning successes. But because those are western European, it's "shut up and take my money!" Maybe they're right; after all, the only new production gun in the chambering is a Tokarev repro whose cost rivals the Hi Point :banghead:

The dumbest part of all of this is that a new production quality pistol with a Tokarev length magwell would open up a whole new territory of pistol cartridge wildcatting and development which is at present fundamentally stunted by the OAL of 45acp.

TCB

 

[atblis]

If you're after velocity, some "common" cartridges with light bullets are comparable to the 7.62x25. 357 Sig with 90 gr bullets is actually faster. Smaller lighter bullets at the same velocities in a cartridge that doesn't fit in any common pistols. MEhhh.

 

[justin22885]

i like the 7.62x25 round and the german 7.63 mauser it was derived from.. i do wish more modern handguns were available but as it stands your options seem to be the tokarev, the CZ52, and the 1911.. you can chamber 1911s for x25, its barely longer than 45acp, not enough where you cant do it.. you can get an x25 barrel, 9mm ejector and extractor, 38 super magazines.. would be cool to have a 20 round doublestack 1911 like a converted P14

hmm, what if someone modernized the tokarev? ive always though the tokarev with its enclosed hammer would make a badass CCW piece if you could shorten and lighten one up and without that stupid grip safety you could get a much more ergonomic grip on it than you could the 1911

so since 1911s can be converted, i'd imagine if you had the right components you could probably convert other 45acp handguns like the glock.. there are glock shooters that have reported that 7.62x25 will fit into glock 21 size mags so... a barrel, and some 9mm parts (extractor, ejector) and you have a modernized 7.62x25 pistol

what about this?

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I like the idea but don't see it happening. There are new Toks for sale out there now though.

The surplus ammo is no longer cheap, it's a long round, and the bottle neck is a bit tougher to reload. So, I don't see it happening unless something big changes in the market.

 

[justin22885]

30 luger interests me too, uses the same bullets, its about the same pressure as 9x19mm with a larger case capacity, same as 9mm in diameter.. would be a very cool PDW cartridge and should have more muzzle energy than 9mm if loaded to modern specs, and can be chambered really with just a barrel swap in a .9mm pistol.. i think if i had a 9mm pistol i may just rechamber it for this simply to be different, ya know?

 

[joem1945]

Tark, "Joem45, the Winchester white box ammo (loaded in the Czech Republic!) chronos at around 1650. That's not weak!"

I didn't mention that it was weak, just that the imports very inaccurate as the bullets are under sized.

 

[Brin]

I would think the pistol to convert to a high capacity 7.62x25mm would be the 38 super Witness. It will hold 18 rounds. Does anyone here know who makes the 1911-38 super 7.62x25 barrels for J&G sales? I wonder if they would be interested in making barrels for the Witness.

 

[M-Cameron]

i suppose you have to ask....is there anything the 7.632TOK does that modern ammo( 9mm PARA, .357MAG, and especially .357SIG) dont already do?

assuming the intention is for it to become a fairly popular round (which is a fair assumption because gun companies arent going to make a gun that doesnt sell).....there is going to have to be some ammo manufactures making new production ammo.

now ask yourself, if you were going to buy a new gun......would you buy something chambered in a caliber you know you could get ammo for anywhere( 9mm, .357, ect)....or would you buy ammo you could only get at a few gun shops or online?