7.62x25 Reinvigorated

[Richard Head]

i suppose you have to ask....is there anything the 7.632TOK does that modern ammo( 9mm PARA, .357MAG, and especially .357SIG) dont already do?

Penetrate a bpv? Idk, but what can any of those rounds do that the others can't?

Here's my new production Zastava M57 I bought for around $210 brand new. I wasn't a fan at the time but for the price I couldn't pass it up. I've really grown fond of this little pistol, it's extremely accurate and very reliable. It also comes from the factory with a fully functional safety that I wouldn't hesitate to trust my life with if it was my carry gun. I've loaded everything from 85 grain fmj's to 115 grain lrn bullets and everything in between including soft points and hollow points without a hiccup, but my favorite bullet is the Armscor 110 grain fmj from Graff at only $11 for 100 it's affordable. It's an outstanding firearm, I would call it a poor mans 1911 but that wouldn't do it justice.

 

[WardenWolf]

Here's my take on it: the moment anyone starts making a truly modern handgun in 7.62x25, the ATF is going to take notice and ban the round, just as they tried to do with M855. Only this time, they'll succeed because it's not nearly as well-known or popular and it's not primarily used in rifles. Be very glad it's niche because the moment it becomes popular, it goes bye-bye.

 

[justin22885]

personally, i dont think we need a modern pistol designed specifically for x25, because things like glocks are capable of loading the cartridge in the magazines its really just a matter of a few modifications and a new barrel to make it work

also, i think there are two incredibly good x25 pistols out there that can be modernized, the TT33 for example internally is almost identical to the 1911 and theres nothing stopping the same level of modernization from being done to the TT33 but the TT33 can offer a much better grip than the 1911 can.. then you have the CZ52, i really like this pistol a lot too

benefits of x25?.. more velocity, smaller surface area means youre going to get better penetration.. likely youre going to get overpenetration on soft targets but itll punch through armor and barriers as well as the soft core 5.7x28mm, itll also be flatter shooting as well, with the potential to be a more accurate cartridge and you are looking at higher levels of muzzle energy on average than 9mm, 40S&W or 45acp.. and given a lighter projectile, youd have pretty low recoil for even faster followup shots

tell me, what advantage does a 40S&W have over 9mm or 45acp?

 

[justin22885]

richard head.. ever looked at a TT33 vs a 1911? say the frame design for example? its so much simpler in design and would be so much easier to produce than a 1911 frame from scratch.. if i had the desire to, and the blueprints to follow i am confident i could machine a fully functioning TT33 frame using little more than a drill press, router table, and a dremel/files.. in my opinion with my way of thinking a mechanism that can perform the same task as another mechanism, but do so at incredibly lower costs to build and with greater simplicity is in fact the superior mechanism.. take away 100+ years of 1911 aftermarket and id call the TT33 a superior design in its simplicity

if im not mistaken the original 1911 prototypes were supposed to be more along the lines of that pistol, but the US military INSISTED on adding stupid, pointless features like the grip safety which in reality does very little to increase the actual safety of the pistol and restricts your ability to change the contour and profile of the grip for added comfort and ergonomics... if i had a choice between a plain 1911 and a TT33 in the same caliber, same configuration, id go with the TT33

i think a TT33 with a doublestack magazine and an integral accessory rail would be awesome

 

[Monac]

justin22885 said:

if im not mistaken the original 1911 prototypes were supposed to be more along the lines of that pistol, but the US military INSISTED on adding stupid, pointless features like the grip safety which in reality does very little to increase the actual safety of the pistol and restricts your ability to change the contour and profile of the grip for added comfort and ergonomics...

To be sure, 1911 was near the dawn of the automatic pistol era. Since the design of single action automatics like the Colt 1911, the Colt 1903, and the FN 1910 seemed to require them to be carried cocked, grip safeties seemed to be neither stupid nor pointless to people at the time...including John Browning, who incorporated them into most of the pistols he designed before WWI.

I'm not saying you are wrong; I'm just saying your point is much clearer in hindsight than it was at the time.

 

[dancitizen]

There are several modern 7.62x25 pistols out there already...

Dominion Arms P762: a 17 round Sig copyclone in 7.62x25 (available in Canada)


PH-T73: a 14 round double stack TT-33, even comes in stainless.


There are a couple others I cannot recall at the moment, a Serbian and maybe a Swiss pistol?

I know the Pakistanis are working towards importing the PH-T73 and a few other models. The Dominion is Chinese, so we're screwed on that one at the moment.

 

[Richard Head]

richard head.. ever looked at a TT33 vs a 1911? say the frame design for example? its so much simpler in design and would be so much easier to produce than a 1911 frame from scratch.. if i had the desire to, and the blueprints to follow i am confident i could machine a fully functioning TT33 frame using little more than a drill press, router table, and a dremel/files.. in my opinion with my way of thinking a mechanism that can perform the same task as another mechanism, but do so at incredibly lower costs to build and with greater simplicity is in fact the superior mechanism.. take away 100+ years of 1911 aftermarket and id call the TT33 a superior design in its simplicity

I have a Colt 1911 and it's a fine pistol but I actually like the Tok round better and the Tokarev has some improvements like the removable trigger group it's also a fine pistol. You should check out the National Geographic special on ghost guns. These Phillipino gunsmiths were making 1911's in the jungle with just scrap metal and hand tools. It was amazing how good the guns came out looking in the end.

 

[justin22885]

i WOULD try to build a TT33 frame, but.. id feel inclined to make some updates to it, id want to double-stack it and maybe add an integral rail

and that P762 handgun is really cool

 

[raubvogel]

I want a P762 and a PH-T73.

 

[CornCod]

Maybe we ought to lobby gun companies that are not afraid of innovation like Taurus and Kel-Tec?

 

[barnbwt]

and that P762 handgun is really cool

No doubt.

Maybe we ought to lobby gun companies that are not afraid of innovation like Taurus and Kel-Tec?

Or congress to override the idiotic ban on Norinco imports (as if we're "sanctioning" China by doing so ), or gun trade with Canada (I understand we're the problem, not them, as it pertains to us importing their goods). Or Norinco to apologize for running straight-up machinguns over here illegally for gangsters a few decades back (hey, it couldn't hurt )

As far as Glocks go, I'm fairly certain that the round won't fit G20/1 mags. The reason is simply that very few Tokarev builds are done, despite there being several orders of magnitude more Tokarev ammo than 45GAP out there, and for a lower price; why aren't 7.62x25 builds and barrels popping up all over? I suspect it is because the mag is like .1" too short or something, just barely too small for a flat/hollow point to get you by.

For a build, I'd buy a dual-stack 2011 from RIA (I think they have them at this point) to cut on, and a 1911 Tokarev conversion barrel from Numrich (actually pretty good quality). You'd be in like 800$ at the end of the day, assuming you didn't sell the original barrel. You'd have to stretch both the mag and open up the magwell a fair bit, which is probably even harder with the squarer double stack magwells. Might be easier to cut/sew the thing to get the length needed.

TCB

 

[jamesinalaska]

I don't see the 7.62 x 25 cartridge becoming popular. I think that after the recent gun scares people who shoot are far more interested in securing ammunition and reloading components for their most versatile sidearms: 9mm, 40 s&w, 45 acp, 38 spc., .357 mag., and the 44's.

Spending money and time on one unique cartridge, chambered for older firearms, is really only something that a few enthusiasts are going to be doing.

 

[barnbwt]

Yup, centralizing around 9mm, 223, and 22LR is certain to keep you supplied during the next panic . I'm actually centralizing around 7.62x25 and 7.5x55, believe it or not. FWIW, 7.5 Swiss was essentially stable throughout the whole ordeal, as was 9mm Largo if I'm not mistaken. Tok had dried up a year or so prior, but it was around the same when you could find it. SGAmmo actually has wood crates of Tok at reasonable prices (.19/rnd I think it was ) if you absolutely must have loads of cheap plinking ammo, and Red Army is making new production in quantity for those of a 'loftier' disposition. The best part about arms that use Tokarev, is that every last one of them is a mere barrel-swap from running 9mm if needed (or any other chambering with a 9mm or 223 case head, which are many at this point)

You should check out the National Geographic special on ghost guns.

LOL, we were all poking fun at that silly thing if it's what I remember. had some dumb fool wearing sunglasses, over a ski mask, over a bandana talkin' through a voice modulator about what a bad ghost-gunnin' gangsta mutha he was --That entire California garage-smith scene could have been fabricated for all we know! That's what was so stupid about it!

YES! That was the one! FWIW, none of these guns are nearly as "bespoke" as is claimed if they are actually functional. Kinda hard to drill a firing pin hole with files and hammers . They usually have a machine shop nearby, but like to maintain the image of skilled craftsman in the front 'lobby' for the benefit of customers and image (not unlike certain 1911 manufacturers, come to think of it )

Man, I bet these guys could give the Temperance League's portrayal of gin distilleries a run for its money if they do a piece on moonshiners...

TCB --makin' the Devil's guns, while drinkin' the Demon Rum...

 

[justin22885]

i'll stick with 45acp or 45 super as my standardization, 7.62x25 is a great cartridge, and it has its advantages in being a pretty accurate, flat shooting cartridge but barrier/armor penetration is about all its good for and its still nowhere near as good at that as even a moderate .223/5.56.. 45acp/super does bring something to the table that none of my rifle cartridges can and thats the ability to drive a 230 grain bullet at 1100fps (45 super pressures) and giving me over 600ft/lbs of energy at subsonic velocities out of a mere 5" barrel, this gives me enormous amounts of power for a handgun with the ability to screw on a suppressor and be completely silent.. on top of that my standard long-action cartridge is 8mm mauser, standard short action is 308.. 8mm mauser can be chopped to 308 and 308 can be chopped to 45 super and theres what? 30 cartridges that use a 12mm case head that can be converted to 308?

on the contrary though if you did have 7.62x25 you can made brass from .223/5.56 brass and i believe you can also make 9x23 and 38 super from 223 brass as well so if 5.56 is your go-to caliber, having one of these other ones in your handgun just for the economy of repurposing old brass wouldnt be a bad idea at all, since ive pretty much sworn off 5.56/223 i really have little reason to do this

this may seem like its getting off topic, but i honestly believe for you people who have .223/5.56 as your go to caliber, 7.62x25 would be a great companion cartridge to that

 

[justin22885]

how about this. how about we take 5.56 brass, converted it to 7.62x25 brass, loaded it up to 55,000 PSI (it would have the bolt thrust of 9x23mm so it should be safe to chamber in most 1911 handguns).. what would you guys say to those ballistics? how absolutely awesome would a PDW/SMG/pistol caliber carbine firing that load be? that would be hitting with a force likely GREATER than that of 5.56 out of an AR-15 pistol

we'd have MORE case volume than 5.7x28mm, about 5,000PSI more max pressure, be chambered in a 1911, glock 21, or even a tokarev TT-33 (im sure it can handle it) and still be able to load surplus standard pressure x25 for plinking.. man, i need to try this and then tell you guys all about it if i manage to keep all my fingers

 

[dancitizen]

I think it's important to consider just how common the 7.62x25 is worldwide.

Components, gun parts, surplus ammo... all likely to keep coming in for a long time.

The 7.62x25 deserves recognition in the USA because it is a damned capable round. Flat shooting, low recoil, reliable feeding.

 

[justin22885]

how much more reliable is a bottlenecked pistol cartridge at feeding compared to straight?.. like, would 30 luger be inherently more reliable than say 9mm? both are virtually identicle in base diameter, COAL, pressure, just they necked up 30 luger to make 9mm luger so they make a pretty valid comparison, apples to apples if you will.. so would the bottleneck actually make it more reliable? (i guess 7.62x25 could be considered a bottlenecked 38 super)

 

[WardenWolf]

A bottlenecked cartridge can go in a a much steeper starting angle than a straight walled cartridge. And it has much looser tolerances until the very last stage of its chambering. Think of it like trying to drop a marble down a funnel vs. down a tube.

 

[justin22885]

thats interesting.. makes more of a case for the 7.62x25 or even 30 luger if ultimate reliability is your goal

 

[dancitizen]

357 sig is a great example of this, as is 5.7x28

Bottleneck pistol rounds feed great and it is less dependant upon projectile shape. Imagine a 50 grain flying ashtray type load out of a 7.62x25 going a spicy 2,000 fps.

 

[justin22885]

well, im really starting to like my idea of trimming and necking 5.56 brass down to 7.62x25 and loading that stuff to 55,000 PSI or so of pressure and see what it can do out of a 10" carbine.. but even that aside, i may just look at some of these added benefits of x25 more and consider persuing a hangun in this caliber.. i really want a tokarev and a CZ52 now

 

[justin22885]

hmm, you know a 7.62x25 tokarev cartridge has about 2 grains H2O more case capacity than .30 carbine with about the same max pressure?.. in fact, finding ballistics of .30 carbine out of a 5.5" barrel actually showed poorer performance than 7.62x25 out of a 4.5" barrel... so when you figure the 7.62x25 is pretty much a .30 carbine packed into a frame that is far, far more comfortable to handle in a semi automatic grip and cycles much more reliably.. the 7.62x25 starts to look a lot better and more interesting of a cartridge, dont y'all agree?

 

[GBExpat]

This thread has reminded me that I have fired none of my TTs recently ... I now plan on correcting that OOPs sometime this week.

 

[justin22885]

yeah, i think im going to order me one of those, or a CZ52, id like to spend a bit more time with 7.62x25 but i have nothing that fires it.. hmm, do you guys think it would be possible to tweak a 1911 frame to fit a TT33 mag? i think the grip angle is off though which means top round would not line up right with the chamber

 

[Richard Head]

hmm, you know a 7.62x25 tokarev cartridge has about 2 grains H2O more case capacity than .30 carbine with about the same max pressure

I like and load both cartridges they're both great rounds but
7.62x25 = 16.8 grains H2O case capacity
30 carbine 21 grains H2O case capacity

With softponts or hollow points they can be very effective for sd.