7.62x39 vs 223 vs 357

[oldfool]

somewhat similar to the current "bolt action carbines" thread here

Application -
Bolt action carbine, mid-size non-dangerous North American game, say 30# to 270#, but mostly in the middle. Brush country hunting at short to modest ranges, expectations being 100 yards or less. Whitetail being a fair example, though need not be exclusive example; assume for discussion and comparison, all three cartridges to be hunting legal for intended purpose. of course.

High capacity and/or rapid fire not a factor. Not a speed contest between a single shot vs. autoloader. Not a "scenario" gun. Not a match grade target rifle. Not a "do everything" rifle, just a do some things rifle.

Lightweight, handy carbine with good accuracy, readily available off-the-shelf non-boutique ammo to empower range day fun and practice at 50 to 100 yards.

All three bolt action carbines can be readily had in today's marketplace, similar pricing NIB. All three cartridges are reasonably affordable in factory loads, no handloading required.

None of the three strike me as "traditional/classic" rifle hunting rounds (other than 223 for coyote), but all three have become ever more popular in the last 10-15 years. The wave of enthusiasm for such as the AR/AK/SKS etc., seems to have opened up an expanding market for the 223 and 7.62, while CAS/SASS has inspired a resurgence in 357 rifles, and not just for steel plates.

so... What's your take on comparisons between these THREE ?

PS
Acknowledged and understood, there are many other centerfire rifle cartridges that would be excellent candidates, but that's not the question here. Already own multiple others for multiple purposes.

 

[okiewita40]

IMHO I don't think you could go wrong with any of them. I prefer the 7.62x39. It is the closest to a 30-30 and those are said to be fine brush guns. Besides I like to hunt with my SKS.

 

[kludge]

Of the three, on game up to whitetail size, I'll take the 7.62x39. But give me a choice and I'll take a 6.5 Grendel... well I'd probably have to make one from a donor rifle. Lots of people use .223 for deer, but I wouldn't.

The 7.62x39 is a 200 yard deer rifle, the .357 isn't, IMO... I know you said 100 yards or less is the expectation, but sometimes the unexpected happens.

Even though I reload, I would still take the 7.62 even though I could handload the .223 for much less. If you hand load there is some good versatiltiy to be had. 90gr XTP's (.309") for varmints, 110gr carbine bullets (.308") for plinking, and 123-125gr (.310") bullets for deer.

 

[Rail Driver]

I'd go with the 7.62x39... it's got mass and bullet durability over the .223, and it's got velocity over the .357

JMO

 

[sansone]

easy pick..
7.62x39
reasons: 223 too small, 357 drops like a rock, the commie round is cheap

 

[HOOfan_1]

I'd say 7.62x39 as well, but are you going to find much off the shelf (meaning walk into your LGS and buy it) hunting ammo for it? Or are you going to find mostly steel cased FMJ? Most of the hunting rounds I am seeing on Midway are more expensive than .308 hunting rounds...

 

[sansone]

fiocchi brass cased loads are very reasonable but also FMJ

 

[sixgunner455]

Well, since I'm set up to reload for the .357 and the .223, I'd pick one of those. Between the two, in a bolt action hunting carbine, I'd get the .223. I wouldn't think of using it on deer past 200 yards in any case, and I'd prefer to have it under 150. In my opinion, it matches your perameters quite well. It would be a great rifle to introduce kids and inexperienced adults to centerfire rifles and hunting under controlled conditions with a rifle that will never beat them up, and has the capability of being very accurate for them.

Additionally, it is more versatile than the other two in being an optimal walking around (light and short) varmint rifle, too. I think I'd like one of these, actually.

 

[crazysccrmd]

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-carbine/

CZ 527 Carbine, available in 7.62x39 and .223, but I'd go with the 7.62. Lightweight (5.9lbs), handy (37in), and has iron sights if you don't want to use a scope at the close ranges you intend to use it in. Simple, cheap to feed, easy to maintain and reliable.

 

[Jason_W]

I'll vote for the .357. Here's why:

the .357 mag can be easily loaded down to .38 spl levels which, with cast bullets will take smaller game without evaporating them. If you don't handload, factory cowboy action ammo will accomplish the same thing.

On the other end of the spectrum, loaded hot with a good bullet, it will take deer sized game inside 125 yards. The 158 grain remington JSP over a stout charge of Lil'Gun will break 1900 f/s from a carbine, and it holds together well after impact.

I think the round offers the most versatility of the three.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

7.62X39 or .223. both will do the job.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I would go with 223 and 357 as a second option.

Way more bullet and gun choices available for the 223.

 

[sansone]

look again at post #9..
that is my advice as well

 

[valnar]

7.62 gets a bad rap for accuracy since its usually shot out of an AK. Can anyone who owns a CZ 527 tell me how accurate it is with standard Russian surplus?

 

[Rollie]

I have a 527 and like it very much. It has a 2 1/2 X scope, and with 5 rounds of ammo, weighs 6.65#. The last time I shot it, was casually off the bench, with no special effort for accuracy and the results were the following: Prvi Partizan 123 gr. round nose soft point factory (should be an excellent hunting round @ a measured 2508 fps) , 3 rounds = 2" @ 100 yds, CL & CL. Wolf 124 fmj @ measured 2430 fps, 5 rounds = 3" , 1/2" left & 1/2" high. 125 sierra, 27.0 Re 7 , @ 2405 fps (measured), = 1 3/4" CL & 1/2"high. With careful effort and sandbags, etc., I have shot 1.080" with the wolf, and 3/4" with the sierra. An interesting load with 100 gr , .312 dia., Hornady XTP PISTOL bullets and 21.5 gr , H110, @ 2437 fps,= av. 1.94" , 3/4" hi, & 7/8" rt. should make an explosive varmint load. With a more powerful, but heavier scope, I am sure one could get better groups, but this works for me. Rollie

 

[armoredman]

The one time I shot Wolf out of my CZ 527M 7.62x39mm, no rest. Yuck.



200 yards with handloads, front rest only.



100 yards with Berry's new plated bullet, front rested only.



I am not that good with a rifle, that's obvious, ( and I need to zero the dadgum scope better!),but I feel more than confident with this little carbine than I do with a lot of other rifles.

 

[NuclearMeltdown]

Check out my thread on TFL from last year:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4052818

I have all three of those calibers in rifles and I like them all. For what you listed, the CZ527 is the winner for me.

 

[oldfool]

I should probably add a clarification note or two here

Semi-autos just don't happen to appeal to me, but I like carbines, "yardstick" guns.
The five centerfire rifles I currently own are all carbines:
NEF single shot in 243, Remington model 7 in 243, Marlin 18" lever in 30-30, Marlin 1894 in 38/357, LSI/Rossi '92 in 38/357.
Most of those do sometimes wear low X power scopes, but not always, I like 'em both ways, with or without.

Those already cover the named application well enough, of course, but I am intermittently tempted to add another bolt carbine to the mix, especially as the number of such available choices does seem to be growing. My short list being defined by the three cartridge choices named.

I burn a lot more ammo at the range than I do in the field, and the club range I shoot at is limited to 100 yards. The places I hunt critters are very much about the type of terrain I like to hunt; it's very much about 'being there', you know. I can get meat at Publix, but it does nothing for my soul like a slow walk in the woods does. Where, why, and how I hunt really does mean that shots over a 100 yards really are not in the mix; you will not see or hear the critters at that distance. If I do see game whilst driving or walking to where I am going to lock-n-load and begin hunting, it's not a missed opportunity, it just adds value to the day, enjoy the trip.

so far.... it appears the 7.62 has the most fans, which surprises me just a little bit.

the 223 is fast, accurate, and cheap fun, but not real stout on bigger than Wile E.
(but don't tell the AR fellows I said that now !)

the 357 probably deserves more respect than it gets out of a long barrel (it is bambi legal, and 223 is often not).. but I do already have two

choices, choices, choices
part of the fun of it all is in "the hunt" for your next gun, you know

 

[kludge]

I see...

Well, balistically, you're pretty well covered. The 7.62 is going to duplicate the .30-30, and the .243 gets you a long range varmint/coyote rifle, and will do the job on deer too. As you say the .357 from a rifle is no slouch.

The .223 is not a versatile as the .243, but the .243 likes to wear a long barrel. The 7.62 was designed with carbine length barrels in mind, and handloaded accuracy can be quite good. In .223 the ballistics diminish with barrels under 20"... especially if "heavy" bullets and deer hunting is in the mix.

The 7.62 is a step sideways from the .30-30, and with FTX bullets the .30-30 can really shine. If you don't reload surplus ammo is cheaper than equivalent 5.56 surplus ammo, and hunting ammo is available for when you need it, so yes, I'd still choose it over the .223 if hunting deer.

If you reload, the .223 is going to be less expensive than the 7.62 just because of bullet cost and "cheap" brass.

If 100 yards is really the max then a "step up" rifle like the Savage Lightweight Hunter in 7mm-08 may not be for you. What about a "step down" to a .22 Hornet?

 

[cluttonfred]

If you are really keeping things under 100 yards, then .357 would allow inexpensive plinking with bargain .38 Special and the hunting with hot 357 loads. You could even use shot rounds for snakes or rodents.

The current carbine on my wish list would also fit your needs, if not your caliber or action, the H&R CR-45LC single-shot carbine in .45 Long Colt.