7.62x51 (.308) bear loads

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mini14gb

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I recently purchased and M1A SOCOM 16 (m-14) rifle. I'm building a very remote cabin in my home state of Montana this summer and have settled on the SOCOM 16 as my all around cowboy camp rifle. Its should be capable of handling all but the biggest of the big Grizzlies and capable of knocking over a deer here and there during hunting season. I wasn't really to worried about having a good camp rifle before last summer when we had a sneaky ass mountain lion get within 30 feet of one of the kids at night. I had considered a 45-70 lever action but I'm far more comfortable with an auto-loader being a former military man and I like the idea of not worrying about short stroking the action under stress as has happened in bear encounters for other people not to mention fast follow up shots. With that said I was wondering what some of you might think a good factory load might be as an all around load.

Now before you start commenting on the 7.62x51 being a tad small for grizzly bear just remember that before the firearms world went magnum crazy the 30-06 and .308 had tagged A LOT of big big Grizzly bears.
 
Really any quality 150 to 168gr soft point or large-game ballistic tip load should work well. If you want to spend the money, the bonded loads (like Federal Fusion) would be great, as would be something like a Nosler Partition. But I wouldn't feel silly with a 150gr power point (or other quality generic softpoint) and the lower price would make it easier to test for reliability in your rifle.

Just keep in mind that on a grizzly, a good .30 cal bullet may kill it within several minutes, but it likely won't stop it in its tracks. A quick stop on a large bear requires either a serious big game cartridge or a hit on the brain, which is small and well protected.
 
Most of the lighter .308 bullets expand pretty fast...I'd go with 180 grain bullets if I were determined to use a semi auto.

For your purpose...I must say that I believe a lever action would serve the purpose better (heavier caliber, not semi auto, high mileage, low maintenance)

With a bit of practice...one can lay down aimed fire just as fast with a lever action as they could with a semi auto.

A .308 would be fine for hunting grizzly, but it takes some "oomph" to STOP a grizzly....as in "in his tracks, from any angle".
 
I understand your last point and made that a consideration in my selection along with the size and portability of the rifle as factors. I'm not some yahoo who is going to shoot a bear just because I see one or worse surprise one at close range. I'll hold my ground and not fire until the bear reaches 5-10 yards for sure I've had one as close as 20 yards before and was scared to death but still felt confident I could hold fire.

At extreme close range that's a lot of energy to soak up and will more than likely break off an attack. I'm not a novice I have lived here my whole life and have had bear encounters (2 charges and numerous sightings) before and more often than not they are for lack of a better term bluffing. I don't really think a bear bluff charges, when they start a charge its for real but at the last second when you don't stand down they weight the potential consequences of a fight and defer. Contrary to popular belief bears usually avoid all fighting even with each other. Its a matter of body language and giving ground or trying to run is the worst thing you can do. For trail hiking a pack a Ruger Alaskan 454 but for a camp rifle having a longer tooth and good hitting power I don't think you can beat the M1A for its size while beating the brush for deer and its firepower and follow up shot ability at close range bears while hunting those deer not to mention good iron sights. I have more powerful magnum rifles but they are all scoped for long range eastern Montana deer which as I'm sure you know make horrible brush rifles.
 
I do like the idea of a lever action but seriously shotgun and lever action users in bear encounters have a bad habit of short stroking the action with bear leaving them mauled. When I say an all-around camp rifle it needs to be able to do a bit of everything. drop a deer, drop a moose, drop a elk, kill a bear or maybe just shoot at ground hogs for recreation ect. ect ect.
 
For an all around woods gun, I don't think I'd feel underarmed most placed with a .308 semi auto, but if I was really expecting to come nose to nose with bear I'd want a bigger bullet, and invest the time to get myself trained to use my weapon effectively even under stress.
 
I wouldn't say I was "expecting" a nose to nose encounter but my property is near the Blackfoot/Clearwater game range and Grizzlies are definitely in that country so its a possibility. I've only seen 2 Grizzlies in my life, one in Glacier Park and one while hiking in the Bob Marshall wilderness and none were close encounters. But I've seen more Black Bears than you can shake a stick at and I'm certain the .308 is more than able for the biggest Black Bear.

I have some .308 in 168 Grain soft point but I was thinking of digging up a 180 grain ballistic tip.
 
Have the best of both world's with a .458 Socom. .45-70 power in an AR-15 platform.....

I like my SOCOM 16 but it's not really setup for the heavy bullets. Not that you can't use them, just a little less accurate and can't get up to speed in the short barrel. Makes a really nice flash though. ~Wingnut
 
A .308 is simply not large enough to stop any charging animal larger then a deer/black bear... even a charging 400pd plus black bear it would not put it down to the ground unless you hit it with a brain shot!

Trying to stop 1000 pounds of charging hungry bear with a 180 grain bullet is like trying to sink a battle ship with an ak.47!!:uhoh:

OPTIMALLY If I were you i'd get a .45-70 marlin with some good modern loads like buffalo bore which push out a 430 grain hard cast lead bullet at 2000fps and garret's 540 grain hard casts pushed out at 1550 FPS. Or an FMJ or Brash punch bullet would work too.


You could also get a .50 beowulf upper reciever? ;)
http://www.impactguns.com/store/AL-U-BEOOM.html

and slap that baby on.

Look at the girth on that barrel!!!

The .50 beowulf is comparable in trajectory and power to a factory down-loaded .45-70 bullet or 12ga rifled slug. I'd keep the .50 beowulf upper in a nice silicon gun sock in a closet somewhere oiled up and ready to go. If you feel like yoru gonna be trekking through bear country or you sense something weird is going on and you think a bear is near slap Beowulf on there or if your gonna be hitting the hay i'd slap beowulf on there and leave it right next to me.



Other things I would consider for bear defense:
1. Buy a can of bear spray for 20bucks... good for deterring bears that aren't trying to kill you.. this way you wont have to kill every bear that approaches your cabin and you wont feel like a scumbag for killing every bear that comes by to sniff what you've been cookin...

2. Also you should mount a good solid LED water proof flashlight atleast 120 lumens so you can light up any man eaters lurking in the bushes... bears hunt/scavenge at night sometimes... and you don't wanna be fumbling around with a flashlight in one hand and gun in other while the bear is about to charge at you

3. Nice bright laser would be good too for getting the gun on target quick if you DON'T HAVE TIME TO CHEEK YOUR RIFLE

4. If you have a good alert puppy... doesn't have to be a big mean dog just even a small dog that has good smell and can alert you if something big and mean is coming... I have a 30 pound dachsund, and her nose is so sensitive and she's very territorial so when something is out of wack in her territory i.e. marauding animals or man eating bears or intruders.. she barks like crazy... its like a free alarm system for my house.

5. Shot placement... for any animal that can CHARGE ... bull moose, brown bear, cape buffalo, big elk during rut, bison... it's best to take the first shot at the shoulder itself so it breaks the shoulder bone and will slow the animal down incase it does decide to charge giving you enough time to go for a heart lung or brain shot.
 
You have to keep one thing in mind... BEAR HUNTING and BEAR DEFENSE are 2 very different things

Can the .308 kill a brown bear with one or 2 good shots.. YES!

Can the .308 kill a charging 800pd bear inside 50 yards coming at you at 40mph! HELL NO.

Hunting and defense are 2 different things

For bear defense you need a large bullet atleast 400 grains in weight and decent speed to have enough size to do enough damage and also enough speed to penetrate bone and inches of muscle
 
The .45-70 is such a massive and devastating bullet and has such power you won't even need to worry about cycling that lever... one good shot with a modern load like a 430 grainer at 2000fps or a 500grain FMJ or brass bullet will bullet down any animal on the planet... should you need extra rounds they are there but the .45-70 is such a devestating round... if you ever buy one or get a buddies gun, shoot it and you'll see what I mean, the kick of the gun... and the flame out the muzzle it just feels like your shooting a 120mm howitzer
 
For one thing Greg I would never shoot at a bear unless contact was eminent such as 10 yards or less. I think you are struggling with the concept of a camp rifle. I don't want the biggest gun in the woods because it defeats the purpose of being able to fill mulitiple rolls without totally obliterating the target. If you don't think a .308 can deter a bear charge you are sadly mistaken. Much lesser guns than .308 have broken off bear attacks. A camp rifle needs to be able to fill every roll imaginable including basic hunting without massive meat damage and provide basic defense. I find it ironic that most people consider a 44 mag acceptable defense for bears but a .308 with A LOT more energy is not.
 
It is unbelievable how people still live in a fantasy world...wake up!!!

Z-Michigan and Greg...

A charge is stopped with a CNS hit..stop, period, finito, done....no matter the caliber..if you get there game over...

A misplaced shot with any of your dream caliber will not, repeat, will not stop a charge.

If you think than a non CNS hit with any of your dream caliber..45-70, 375, 458 or whatever will stop an angry charge you are solely mistaken...do not get in the woods with that kind of mindset (ah I have a 458 so I can blast anything) or you may be in serious trouble...that mindset get people killed in hairy situations.

Trying to stop 1000 pounds of charging hungry bear with a 180 grain bullet is like trying to sink a battle ship with an ak.47!!
Click to expand...

With a 45-70 instead is like trying to sink that battleship with a.......45-70.......pleeeaaaasee...

A 308 with quality heavy for caliber bullets is adequate at the short distances typical of a charge.

Just keep in mind that on a grizzly, a good .30 cal bullet may kill it within several minutes, but it likely won't stop it in its tracks. A quick stop on a large bear requires either a serious big game cartridge or a hit on the brain, which is small and well protected.
Click to expand...

Too bad that a study commisioned by the US Forest Service place the 30-06 in the top 4 recommended grizzly bear stopping cartridges (the other are 458 WM, 375 H&H and 338 WM)...think about that!!

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6035063

Finally....try saying that to our friend Caribou that a 30 cal. bullet may take several minutes to kill a grizzly...too bad the brown bear he zapped few days ago with his Mosin did not know that (look at his thread in the hunting section)...

Caliber is not a substitute for shot placement.

Now before you start commenting on the 7.62x51 being a tad small for grizzly bear just remember that before the firearms world went magnum crazy the 30-06 and .308 had tagged A LOT of big big Grizzly bears.
Click to expand...

The 30-06 or the 7,62x54R STILL bag lot of grizzly and polar bears every year except in the minds of the armchair bear hunters, some hi-tech radar & infrared equipped Alaska canned hunt sport guide and gun magazines compulsive readers......
 
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Good points Saturno. My thread really is about good loads for an all around camp/utility rifle in .308 and everyone started focusing only on the bear aspect. Some of these guys forget that Lewis and Clark had stopped charging Grizzlies with flintlocks and did not always have the benefit of other members being able to shoot. Yes, I've read the journals and grew up a couple hunder yards from where Lewis got chased into the Sun River by a big male Grizzly.
 
In hindsite I should have named my thread differently but if you read my initial post its clear that I was talking about the .308 as a utility round.
 
mini14gb

A 200 grain bone buster quality bullet in a 308 will do the trick if you know where to put it....if you don't, a 458 Win Mag will not help you.....

My wildlife close range defence firearms when I hike are my trusty Mossberg 500 loaded with Brenneke 3" Black Magic slugs (a pump shottie is still one of the best bear defence tool at close range, especially for the price) and a handy Remington 7600 pump rifle in 30-06 with an extended 10 rounds magazine.

I prefer them any day (for defence situations) because of their manoeuvrability, lighness and rate of fire, than my bolt action 338 Win Mag.

I could use my Remington 740 in 30-06 (basically is the semi auto version of the 760/7600) with extended magaine as well but I do not trust that semi auto rifle in a charge situation even if never jammed on me.
 
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A charge is stopped with a CNS hit..stop, period, finito, done....no matter the caliber..if you get there game over...

A misplaced shot with any of your dream caliber will not, repeat, will not stop a charge.
Click to expand...

Was this a bluff charge or a charge that was stopped? Who knows. There was another vid too but I cannot seem to find it now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw
 
Mini14gb, I've had good success with the plastic tipped (Ballistic Tips, etc) bullets in my M1A and FAL. Some of the soft points did not feed well. It may be that you can have your feed ramps polished for greater reliability, have not done it my self.

Another thought - if your not hunting, a FMJ would probably give you reliability and penetration. The more I think about your scenario the less utility I see for JSPs.

Thought about putting a red dot on the rifle for quickness?
 
Funny thing,,,
My favorite polar bear market hunter, Ivaar Ruud, used a sporter bolt rifle in 9X57mm and was forced to kill more than one charging polar bear, he's still alive, thirty years after the ban.
The 9X57 has a power level similar to the .35 Remington.

Russian Market hunters use a rifle called the "Medved" chambered in 9X54 rimmed.
This is, or was, considered the premier big game rifle in Russia.
They also use Mosin rifles chambered in this caliber as well as an 8mm cartridge I am not all too familiar with and of course, the 7.62X54R, very popular still in Russia.
Saiga rifles and SKS rifles are routinely used for smaller game animals in the deer class.
Five round and semi auto function with a power level again very similar to the .35 Remington, the Medved has been successfully used on ALL Russian large game animals including Siberian Brown Bear and Tigers.
Lately the 9X54 has been losing favor to, of all things, the 7.62X51/.308 which is considered more accurate and harder hitting at longer ranges!

Black Market poachers routinely use FAL and G3 rifles to illegally kill all of the African big five animals.
Animals charge and die.
Occasionally the poacher ends up the unlucky one but dead animal is way more common than dead poacher.

They use full metal jacket bullets and standard twenty round magazines, and yes, it may take all twenty rounds but the kill is still ensured.

They have been doing this for years and still do.

The videos and reference material are there if you want to look it up.
 
..."it's best to take the first shot at the shoulder itself"...

+1

..."FMJ would probably give you reliability and penetration"...

+1

in a self defense scenario, FMJ hunting restrictions and ammo capacity would be voided. when i carried an FAL for back-up in alaska (my wife had the 338WM), many warned me it wasn't big enough in caliber or bullet weight.

please note that uncle sam rates the 7.62X51 150gr FMJ (NOT A.P.) for 4+ feet of pine @ 200 meters. also, it takes 1/2" of armor plate (400-500 AR plate) to reliably stop it at 200 meters. 2 each cinder blocks at 200 meters....

penetration is NOT an issue with this loading. as others have noted, bullet placement IS an issue. a 50 BMG in the leg will ruin Mr. brown's whole week. but it will likely take that entire week to do so, and to get your guts out of his claws.

the next time you see a big brownie running, study his gait very closely. it is as much leaping as it is running. and it is happening at 30mph, or 44 feet per second (!). the chances of getting a well aimed shot is marginal, at best. and like the M1 abrahms, most of the armor is on the front side of the vehicle, but the front shoulder is unprotected, and the head is below it except upon the beginning of the leap.

i am not going to say that a good shot is unobtainable in a charge, many accounts of this being done are available. it is just highly adrenaline altered, and impossible to train for. with a little practice, the soft recoiling gas semi will allow many more opportunities to stop the threat. more importantly, from as close as just 40yds away, where SHTF begins. (read: <3 seconds)

you WILL have to change ammo/magazine if a deer becomes the target, but i think the pucker factor will be greatly reduced for these implementations. and infinitely less risky than reversing the drill.

aim for where the two front leg bones intersect with the vertebrae. a hit there WILL NOT kill the bear, but it WILL save your life.

gunnie
 
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.....many warned me it wasn't big enough in caliber or bullet weight.
Click to expand...

I do not think that people that warned you were experienced Alaskan hunters :)

However a quality heavy hunting bullet (like a partition) will give you penetration and expansioon especially at such short distances....
 
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