7.62x51 (.308) bear loads

[Asherdan]

With that said I was wondering what some of you might think a good factory load might be as an all around load.

I would think something like the Federal Premium with the 180g Partition would be my call if it will feed, function and shoot well and reliably in your rifle. I wouldn't have an issue with the 165g Barnes X load either.

I mean, if you like the rifle and the caliber I'd go with a heavy for caliber premium bullet and sleep OK at night, y'know?

 

[Cosmoline]

I'd say 200 grain SP's for big game like a Woodleigh.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Greg Koziol: but we think he's highly misguided for thinking that an all around camp rifle in .308 caliber will function for bear protection IT WILL NOT. Of course having a .308 caliber is better then your bare hands but its not gonna stop a chargin bear intent on killing you and THATS A FACT

A 30.06 180 grain slug has about 3000 ft lbs of muzzle energy in the hottest loads.
A .308 180 grain slug has about 2,700 ft lbs of muzzle energy in the hottest loads.
That's 300 pounds of energy difference - same slug exiting the barrel.
Is it optimal? No.
Is it enough? Yes, probably, in most cases.
If a 30.06 is enough gun (and most people would consider it so), then a .308 isn't too far behind. A .308 isn't a .30/30.

A 180 grain .308 slug hitting a bear in the face has plenty of penetration to turn his brain into spaghetti. A hit on a major joint has enough energy to put him down. If you miss the face or a major joint, he may not go down no matter what you're shooting - though the odds certainly increase with heavier hitters.

I'm not a novice when it comes to grizzlies. I think I can safely say I have at least as much as experience as anyone on this board, and more than 99% of the people on this board.

Again, if I was the OP I'd look for a short magnum in carbine length. I shoot a .350 Rem Mag for deer here in Kodiak. Yet, a .308 with heavy slugs is at least adequate, particularly with the smaller bears down that way. I'd stick with open sights or at least a variable that dials down to 1x. If he mounts a standard 4x12 variable, it doesn't matter what he's carrying, because he'll be shooting blind at close range.

 

[Greg Koziol]

Saturno actually yea I do think a .500 s&w is more likely to stop a chargin brown bear then a 180 grain .308 bullet... and most people will agree with me.. a .500 s&w can lobb out a 600 grain bullet at over 1000fps... thats as much as most 12 gauge rifled slugs!

 

[Greg Koziol]

Muzzle energy is just a number... it doesn't translate to tangible knockdown power... You can push a 100 grain bullet at 40000000000000 feet per second... BUT THAT BULLET IS STILL ONLY 100 GRAINS AND NOT 500 GRAINS..


a 180 GRAIN .308 pushed out at 4,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 feet per second

or a 500 grain .45-70 full metal jacket pushed out at 1600 feet person second ... i'll take my .45-70 over the .308


Speed alone is not gonna help when the bullet is just way too small

You don't even have to be a gun enthusiast or bear guide or gun trajectory expert...

you show someone a picture of 1000 pound bear and then give then a pencil eraser sized round like a .308 and ask them if you think that will stop it charging you at 40 miles per hour, they'd look at you like you were a SPED kid

 

[KodiakBeer]

Greg Koziol: Saturno actually yea I do think a .500 s&w is more likely to stop a chargin brown bear then a 180 grain .308 bullet.

So, a projectile at 1000fps and 2000 lbs of muzzle energy trumps a projectile at 2,500 fps and 2,700 pounds of muzzle energy?

Is it the .2 inch larger hole that does all that damage?

No handgun (none of them) are going to trump even a .308 on a big bear.

 

[336A]

Wow there is a lot of info here both good and bad for the OP to sift through and digest. I would be very hesitant to use that Double Tap ammo in a rifle that uses the Garand design. Both Federal and Hornady have warnings on their Hi Energy and Light Magnum boxes not for use with semi automatics. If you feel you must use it you will probably end up buying a new SOCOM M1 as your op Rod will be beat to hadis.

Whatever you do the very last bullets you should use are Ballistic Tip anything. These are on the verge of being frangible. When used on deer most times they will shed their cores. This is not a good thing if you think you might have to use this rifle to shoot a Grizzly Bear with.

If you must have a SOCOM then use standard Factory ammunition that features a good stout heavy (180gr - 200gr) for caliber bullet. Bullets such as Nosler Partition/ Accubond, Barnes X, Swift A frame and bullets of similar ilk.

Another caliber worthy of mention that I did not see suggested is the .444 Marlin. This round shoots flatter than the .45-70 and will have less recoil which will allow you to get back on target for faster follow up shots. A .444 with a 300gr bullet will do anything a .45-70 will do with a 350gr bullet while giving less recoil. A good 300gr - 335gr cast bullet from the .444 Marlin driven around 2200fps - 2000fps is devestating and will drive through any animal in north america. If you reload and cast your bullets you could have custom molds cut (from Mountain Molds) for 350gr and 400gr (for 1-20" twist barrels) bear smashing missiles for this cartridge. The .444 is like its' larger brethern is truly a force to reckoned with. It just don't get the press coverage of its' bigger brother.

 

[bad_aim_billy]

Whatever your gun shoots best is fine.

 

[KodiakBeer]

you show someone a picture of 1000 pound bear and then give then a pencil eraser sized round like a .308 and ask them if you think that will stop it charging you at 40 miles per hour, they'd look at you like you were a SPED kid

It's been done many times. It isn't the size of the entry hole, it's the power to break big bones and keep going through organs, more bones, muscle, etc. That's what kinetic energy gives you - penetration. You might also note that rifle rounds don't stay at .30 diameter - they expand and make quite large holes inside where it counts. Would a .45/70 loaded with heavy Buffalo Bores be even better? Yup, but you can't always be carrying the ideal weapon for every situation. If I'm hunting blacktails in the uplands where 200 yard+ shots are the norm, my .45/70 Guide Gun isn't very useful.

You might be surprised to learn that here on Kodiak where the biggest bears live, the most common bear hunting round is a .300 Mag. That isn't because it's the best round; a .338, a .375, etc, would be better. It's because people make compromises - they don't want to buy a .375 for one hunt when they already own a .300 mag for deer, elk, etc, back home. And the .300 (with heavier slugs) does just fine on our 1200 pound bears.

 

[336A]

It's been done many times. It isn't the size of the entry hole, it's the power to break big bones and keep going through organs, more bones, muscle, etc. That's what kinetic energy gives you - penetration. You might also note that rifle rounds don't stay at .30 diameter - they expand and make quite large holes inside where it counts.

Sorry to tell you KodiakBeer but not in all circumstances. Below is an article by John Linebaugh on the .45 Colt. In it he talks about velocity and penetration. John Linebaugh holds his penetration tests every year and you would be surprised at how well slow heavy large caliber bullets penetrate.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12

Look here to see how well a 220gr Core Lokt from the venerable 30-06 fared to some pistol and other rifle calibers.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

 

[336A]

If folks truly feel that velocity means power or the ability to do terminal damage then read the following.

Fellow Shooters,

This marks the second year for John Linebaughs Midwest Big Bore Seminar here in Carthage Illinois. As the host of this event I am still compiling the data into a useable format for John and for all our fellow shooters.

I called Mr Gates this evening with the results of his 12ga. Terminator slugs I shot at this event. The slugs I have are last years production around this time with the crimp groove and 740 grains wt.

The shotgun was:
Savage 210, fully rifled, bolt action with the 24 inch barrel.
Velocity: 1241 ave. 3 shots

Penetration in soaked wet newspaper stack:
Distance: 27"
Bullet condition was 100 %. Bullet penetrated straight and did not tip or yaw, nose forward. with the exception of the rifling marks, appeared undamaged and as though it could be reloaded.
Penetration in paper with bone:
( Stack contained 4" of paper, a Beef femur bone with knuckle, and more wet paper behind)
Distance: paper+ bone+ 13"
Bullet condition was approx 65 plus %. Bullet nose was damaged into the crimp groove.Bullet penetrated straight, did not tip or yaw, nose forward.

Observations: The wound channel in both tests were impressive, initally the size of a tomato paste can. As bullet slowed, wound channel reduced to over bullet size. The tramua area around the wound channel was "bruised" to a diameter significantlly larger. ( not measured)
When the bullet struck the bone in the second stack, it simply dissappeared with the exception of a 2 inch section at the top and a 3 inch section at the bottom. the middle 10 inches.... gone. Some of the bone shards were expelled from the stack to a distance of 50 ft from the test. The top 2" piece was ejected from the stack about 2 ft straight up. The display was most impressive.

I have not used this on game, but if the outcome is similar to the penetration tests, this should do admirably for the purpose for which it's designed.

I hope you will find this information helpful.

Thank you
Todd Corder

You can find this in the forums section of their web site here.

http://www.dixieslugs.com/home.html

 

[pikid89]

AR in .458 SOCOM...gets you 45-70 type loads with big bore lead

 

[CA2005]

Hate to break it to the thread starter BUT a .308 WILL NOT STOP A CHARGING BEAR INTENT ON KILLING YOU WITH ONE SHOT ...

Now the bear is armed? Dang...dangerous woods.

 

[Red State]

Wow, ridiculous amounts of information and opinion here.

I agree that the M1A is in different ballpark when compared to any of the hunting semi-autos. Lots of people have trusted their lives to that rifle in the last 50 years.

One thing that the OP should know is that the M1A does have some limations regarding bullet weight. I have heard that anything over 180 grains is a no-no for that gun due to the design of the gas system.

 

[KodiakBeer]

336A: Sorry to tell you KodiakBeer but not in all circumstances. Below is an article by John Linebaugh on the .45 Colt. In it he talks about velocity and penetration.

John Linebaugh is in the business of selling handguns. If he's recommending a .45 Colt over even a modest rifle, he's full of it. I'd be willing to bet I've seen more grizzlies in one day, than he has in his whole life. I've dealt with grizzlies hundreds of times - shot them, seen them shot, stood down bluff charges, shooed them out of my yard, and even been mauled.
I even own a very nice stainless .45 Colt Bisley, but I know damned well it's a poor choice for stopping grizzlies.

If you want to take the word of a handgun salesman that his guns are better stoppers than a rifle, then... good luck with that!

 

[saturno_v]

336A

That test compares apples to oranges....some of the slow big projectiles shows impressive penetration because they are hard cast or FMJ.

Take a 30 cal 220 gr. solid out of a 30-06 and you will see how much it will penetrate....

I saw cheap 7,62x54R FMJ round going through a sizeable live oak all the way and the bullet never to be recovered....

Greg.

You need to learn a little bit about ballistic, sectional, density, etc...you have a long way to go brother...

a .500 s&w can lobb out a 600 grain bullet at over 1000fps... thats as much as most 12 gauge rifled slugs!

Brenneke 12 ga. Black Magic 3" hard cast slugs can throw a 630 grain projectile at almost 1700 fps which would put your 500 S&W 1000 fps load to shame to say the least...

Muzzle energy is the ability to do work my friend...it is the most important parameter (after that you have to consider bullet construction, the ability of the projectile to hold in one piece) that is the reason why we went from very large diameter bullets during the black powder era to smaller way faster slugs with the advent of smokeless powder...that happened quite some time ago...you may want to check into that...

a 180 GRAIN .308 pushed out at 4,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 feet per second

or a 500 grain .45-70 full metal jacket pushed out at 1600 feet person second ... i'll take my .45-70 over the .308

I'm not even going to comment on that statement...Mr. Newton is rolling in his grave...

 

[saturno_v]

John Linebaugh is in the business of selling handguns. If he's recommending a .45 Colt over even a modest rifle, he's full of it. I'd be willing to bet I've seen more grizzlies in one day, than he has in his whole life. I've dealt with grizzlies hundreds of times - shot them, seen them shot, stood down bluff charges, shooed them out of my yard, and even been mauled.
I even own a very nice stainless .45 Colt Bisley, but I know damned well it's a poor choice for stopping grizzlies.

If you want to take the word of a handgun salesman that his guns are better stoppers than a rifle, then... good luck with that!

+1

Comparing solids to expanding bullets is misleading to say the least...

 

[sonier]

well i didnt mean to stir the pot too much i was looking at versatility and the m14 just dosnt seem to have it in the .308 cartridge was my point, plus i just dont trust semiautos, my 740 RARELY JAMS maybe 1 out of every 300 rounds or so. I had a bad experience with my 740 elk hunting, a gas operated system has its issues with elements, dirt mud grime all that can get into the barrel just a little and then it can mess up headspace, when the headspace is incorrect the lugs will not lock. thats all my opinion was about. LOL never heard many wwII guys complain about there rifles getting messed up by a little water and mud.
also where is that formula i think it was elmer keiths formula maybe that determined a different knockdown formula paybe it was taylors, but i think a 45 70 going at slower speeds is going to have more impact and shock than a faster shooting gun.

 

[gunnie]

kodiakbeer,

"...This is not a guide I would hire. "...

my bad on this, when following a wounded bear into an alder thicket, a 416 he won at a gunshow raffle. same with a bbl longer than i would prefer. the FAL is a general use item.

kinda like the op's needs. i feel safe saying he doesn't sound interested in blood trailing into close cover, just wants a hunter with bad bear abilities.

gunnie

 

[KodiakBeer]

my bad on this, when following a wounded bear into an alder thicket, a 416 he won at a gunshow raffle.

Now a .416 is more like it!

I've never hunted with my FAL, it's more of a fun gun. If you hold it just right at waist level with your finger stiffened, you can slam-fire it on full auto.

As you say though, it would make an OK general purpose gun like the OP's needs...

 

[Greg Koziol]

Just to be clear, I'm talking about a CHARGING BEAR INTENT ON KILLING YOU
i never said a .308 or most 30 caliber rifles will be able to effectively kill a grizzly IF YOU ARE HUNTING IT.


there's obviously a strong 30 caliber high power sniper rifle crowd and tactical crowd in here which is why they persecute me for saying their girly 30 calibers with super short cases and 4,000,000,000,000,000 feet per second are not powerful enough to stop a CHARGING BEAR

you can state whatever BS stats you have about muzzle energy and other BS it doesn't matter

because at the end of the day,
180 grain bullet is still a 180 grian bullet the size of a pencil eraser and simply not good to have if a bear charges

 

[Birddog1911]

OP, I love my M1A more than any other weapon. But if I were looking for the all around camp gun in .308, I'd go to the FAL. Our M1A was not designed to shoot loads, and most experts will tell you not to shoot loads heavier than 175grn at 2700fps. So no throwing the ultra heavies. The FAL doesn't have that limitation.

That said, if I were going to use my M1A, I'd handload the heaviest FMJs that I could find to the usable limitation of the rifle. Maybe some 180s, but I wouldn't practice with them too much to avoid damage to the rifle.

Edited to add: If my numbers are a little off, forgive me. The mother of all head colds right now.

 

[Birddog1911]

Greg the fact that you refuse to comprehend exterior ballistics and the energy produced is what has everyone discounting your opinion on the subject. Sorry, but I, and many others here, will take the opinions of a hunter who lives in AK more than a new member who refuses to look at ballistics. There is a wealth of knowledge on this site, and when they quote you the numbers, the numbers don't lie.

Please keep in mind that here we try to keep "the high road". I'm guilty myself of not always keeping it civil, so I offer my advice with a grain of experience; throwing insults on this site is not going to get you anywhere.

 

[saturno_v]

Frankly I give up.


I wonder what make, in some people opinion, a round appropriate for hunting bears but not for stopping a charge...the difference is the the type of shot..in a charge you have to get to the CNS..period...a double lung hit is a perfect hunting shot but a lousy charge stopper shot......I think is not that hard to understand....but maybe I'm wrong....:banghead:

 

[336A]

John Linebaugh is in the business of selling handguns. If he's recommending a .45 Colt over even a modest rifle, he's full of it. I'd be willing to bet I've seen more grizzlies in one day, than he has in his whole life. I've dealt with grizzlies hundreds of times - shot them, seen them shot, stood down bluff charges, shooed them out of my yard, and even been mauled.
I even own a very nice stainless .45 Colt Bisley, but I know damned well it's a poor choice for stopping grizzlies.

If you want to take the word of a handgun salesman that his guns are better stoppers than a rifle, then... good luck with that!

So basicaly your saying that John is nothing more than a salesman and you are far more knowledgeable,PUUUUUUUHHHLLLEEEEESSSS. I'll go get my hipwaders on in that case. Your post also tells me that you didn't take the time to read the article. If you did you would have found that he tested cast and JSP but at different velocities.

336A

That test compares apples to oranges....some of the slow big projectiles shows impressive penetration because they are hard cast or FMJ.

Take a 30 cal 220 gr. solid out of a 30-06 and you will see how much it will penetrate....

I saw cheap 7,62x54R FMJ round going through a sizeable live oak all the way and the bullet never to be recovered....

Greg.

You need to learn a little bit about ballistic, sectional, density, etc...you have a long way to go brother...

No saturno v we are comparing hunting bullets, and cast bullets are hunting bullets the last time I checked. A .30 cal FMJ bullet is far from being an ethical choice for hunting big game animals much less stopping a charging grizzly bear. Oh BTW a 500gr cast .45 cal bullet has a sectional density of .341 compared to the .30 cal 220gr of .331, I may have been born at night but not last night. The .45 bullet will make a bigger hole, drive deeper and cause more tramau any way you slice it. If the .30 caliber FMJ bullets were so great at stopping enraged dangerous game then all of the PH and Guides would be using them in Africa as well. However such is not the case.

Go back and read about the Dixie Terminator slug in the Bone Box. It was the only round tested that caused such devestating damage. The Terminator slug was the only round to completely desintegrate the Beef femur bone with knuckle. The test media used in the seminar is a lot less forgiving than living tissue is. Yet the Terminator slug still caused more devestation. Also go back and take a look at the Linebaugh penetration test link that I provided and you can compare FMJ performance to cast bullet performance. You can't just totaly ignore bullet mass when talking about terminal performance, as it flies in the face of physics. To put it another way would you rather be hit by a baseball going 100MPH or a Wrecking Ball going 100MPH?