7.62x51 (.308) bear loads

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..."I do not think that people that warned you were experienced Alaskan hunters"...

and/or familiar with penetration characteristics of 7.62 NATO ball.

gunnie
 
For example, this 200 gr. Nosler Accubond Double Tap .308 load

Ballistics : 2550fps - 2888 ft./lbs. - 22.0" bbl. Remington 700
FN-FAL - 2500fps

100yds - 1.5" high 2428fps / 2618ft/lbs
200yds - zeroed 2310fps / 2370ft/lbs
300yds - 8.7" low 2196fps / 2141ft/lbs
400yds - 24.7" low 2084fps / 1928ft/lbs
500yds - 48.6" low 1975fps / 1732ft/lbs

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_52&products_id=206

308%20200AB.JPG
 
the cartridge is very capable of taking down grizzlys, but not effiecently, first off for a bear gun you need a very heavy weight say some of sierras 220 grains your talking grizzlys, but your cartridge is not going to send that bullet fast at all your looking at 2000fps-2200,in comparison a 30 06 can drive the same bullet upwards to 2600 fps.
I live where there are LOTS OF BEARS AND LIONS, i have been stalked before on horseback by lions and had them 20 feet from the house, i also raise a good size herd of sheep and have pigs goats as well, I WOULD NEVER STAKE MY LIFE ON A SEMIAUTO PLATFORM, when your talking big bear rounds for the .308 they WILL not function properly in a rifle designed for military cartridges, Itd be a matter of time before a little crud and you get a stovepipe, TRUST ME I KNOW i have a remington 740 semiauto 30/06 and it is NOT my first choice, id feel more comfortable shooting my bolt action .22lr than a semi auto 30/06 for a bear. and im talking black bears here, have you had hunting experience before? cause i can tell you i shot a cow elk 5 times with 150 grain spitzer soft points hot loaded before she dropped i had 4 of the shots went through lungs and heart, the fith went through her spine in her neck, when a animal is charging you or adrenaline pumping it dosnt matter too much what your carrying they can do amazing things on adrenaline. now that im done with my rant on that
if you need a round for dangerous game find military surplus full metal jackets, if you are face to face with a grizzly you will need to aim at central nervous systems IE, head, spine because ive seen first hand that a well placed shot through the heart and lungs and shoulder they can still run and do a lot of stuff. you can use any normal ammo for hogs too moose, and your selection would be even better if you reloaded ammo which i did not read that you did.
 
oh a little funny info, the 7.62x54 and 7.62x39 and 30/06 all have been used with full metal jackets to kill elephants in africa yes all the shots are placed very accurately and the armor piercing capabilities of these rounds do the job, but you wont see them aiming for heart lung shots lol all is done with nervous system shots
 
i can see your point about a rem 740. but the FAL was designed to shoot that weight of ammunition. all 5 of the different mfgd FAL's i have owned were as reliable as a claw hammer. even though the system is adjustable for gas flow to the piston, why change when 150gr ball is entirely capable for the mission?

gunnie
 
What powder and grains do you use if you load a 200 gr bullet in a .308Win, that would be within the pressure curve required for an M-1A?
 
..."have you had hunting experience before?"...

yes. i have seen a 400lb (+,-) cow moose dropped with 45 acp from a colt combat commander. same from the sight obstructed view. i have seen a 6' rack moose that was dropped from one shot out of an HK 91. i know a central alaska hunting guide with 20 years experience who switched to the FAL for back-up on bear hunts after noting that ALL of the PH's carried that on his hunt in africa. same well used/abused rifles that were milsurps. i have read about an african animal control officer that dropped 30+ problem child elephants with ball ammo from an FAL....

have YOU seen an M1A/M14, FAL, HK 91 stovepipe ball ammo?

gunnie
 
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Agree that the 740 may be lacking. When you upgrade to a good FAL or a M1A, you are on a whole different planet. Kind of like judging a Mercedes by owning a Yugo.
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I agree that the 740/742/7400/750 would not be my first choice (I do own a 740 and never jammed on me by the way....I still do not trust it for wildlife defence) however you cannot compare it to a FAL or a M1A and say that these two are "better" than a 740. You are comparing apples with oranges

A 740 is not a military rifle, but it is indeed a very good hunting rifle. It is built for a different purpose and for that purpose (hunting) is much better than a FAL or an M1A.

First of all is very light (easier to lug around) and second it can digest better a wider range of bullet weights (probably you have to modify something on the gas system in either the FAL or the M1).

It doe not have the loose tolerances typical of a military rifle (which can affect accuracy) so is not as jam-proof as the other two. It likes cleaning a lot :D:neener:
 
but your cartridge is not going to send that bullet fast at all your looking at 2000fps-2200,in comparison a 30 06 can drive the same bullet upwards to 2600 fps.
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Still 200 gr. at 2550 (22" pipe) fps look good to me....
 
Lemme add a lil bit to this :D

Rossi or Puma M92 in .454 cassull.
Can shoot .454 cassul or .45LC
holds 10 rounds in the 20"
holds 8 rounds in the 16"
Small, light, reliable.
A firebreathing .454 cassul has as much knockdown as a 45-70.
A mouse fart .45LC load could be used on small game. SWC punches a nice little hole through them without doing much damage to surrounding flesh

Similar to my .357 magnum lever actions ability to do everything from deer with .357mag to rabbit with a .38, only the .454 goes WAY WAY higher in power while the .45LC can drop down and be about as good as the .38 on small game, just a .45 hole through them instead of a .35 hole.
 
I don't think that the bear's been born yet that will not be turned by and M1A with 20 rounds on tap. They are not armor plated. If a 44 Rem. Mag is a good minimun handgun that kills brown bears every year, you'll be fine with your M1A.
Maybe they have bigger meaner bears down south, I don't know.

Nevermind all the bear stuff. I think ya have a nice all round camp rifle!
 
Girodin, I think that sow was bluffing. Just trying to throw a scare into the hunters so its cubs could run off. The video was blurry, so it's hard to see details, but in an actual attack the bears ears will fold down flat against its head and the eyes will be slits. The hunter played it pretty cool to put a shot in the water. That was good work - risky, but he made the right call.

Here's a video in Sweden of a clear bluff charge (European brown bears are the same species as American Grizzly/browns). Note the ears are up and the eyes wide open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qWjWKWakFI

As for .308 as a bear gun. It's not ideal, but as an all-around rifle I think it's an OK choice. I'd use 180 grainers and zero for 25 yards. You can always remember to hold a tad high for a deer out at 150 yards, but in a sudden bear encounter you want that bullet to hit right where you aim - the tip of the nose if possible.
 
I think your choice of the SOCOM is a bigger problem than the .308 per se. The .308, heavy loaded with a deep penetrating, expanding round, is certainly sufficient. But the rifle in this case has an overly short barrel, it's an eardrum buster, it doesn't pack well due to protruding magazine and parts, and it STILL weighs upwards of NINE POUNDS(!!) even sans scope. Just as with the huge X-Frames, I've been seeing a surprising number of these rifles getting sold off on the local swap and sells. That's not a good sign.

A levergun, in contrast, packs flat, weighs as little as six pounds or even less, rides easy, and chambers rounds up to heavy .45-70 or .450 Marlin. The "short stroking" issue is a matter of knowing your rifle. Another option is a light weight bolt action, esp one that balances well in the hand. When I was off grid, the rifles I used the most were light, accurate and easy to pack. A bear gun will need to be on or very near you to be useful, so keep in mind how much you'll be having to carry this thing around.


Relying on capacity is also missing the point. If you get charged by a griz or bushwhacked, having ten or twenty rounds on tap really means nothing. It's the first round that matters. I carry cocked and locked with the levergun in a backpack scabbard. If you do run into trouble, it's liable to happen really really fast. Which, again, favors a light platform over a bulky battle rifle.
 
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You seem very adamantly opposed to anything larger than a .308.. if your so convinced that .308 can stop a bear charge then why did you even post this thread? It was a waste of time trying to help you out.. but take that .308 and try to stop a charging bear inside of 10 yards with it and see what happens
 
There is a very good possibility it was a bluff charge.
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It may or may not have been, who knows? That bear turned around after the revolver went off. No one can say with certainty that the shot did not stop the bear (hitting the the bear is irrelevant if it stopped the charge) The other video I was looking for appeared to be a pretty committed charge and the hunter shot it wounding it and it stopped ran the other way and died.

While I agree in principal that affecting the CNS is the only way to assure stopping something immediately. Talking in absolutes is a pretty good way to be incorrect.
 
I think some of you are missing the point. He's looking for an all-around rifle. There is no rifle for every occasion. If he just wanted a bear protection rifle, I'd advise him to buy a Marlin Guide Gun and be done with it. But, he's looking for a camp rifle, deer rifle, bear gun, and probably a two-legged predator gun as well.

A .308 with 180's has close to 3000 ft lbs of muzzle energy (less in his shortened barrel version), but still capable of plenty of penetration. When you consider that against people who carry .44 magnums for bear protection, then he's toting two or two and a half times the muzzle energy. Maybe that puts it in better perspective.

And he can still knock down a deer at a couple hundred yards. As long as he doesn't mount a high power scope and make it useless for close range bear encounters, he's not not doing badly.

As for weight, I wouldn't consider that a big deal. Length is more important than weight. Bear trouble is all too often in thick cover, and a short barrel counts for more than an extra 1 or 2 pounds of weight.

With that said, it's not what I would choose. My circumstances are similar (I hunt deer in country with about 1 grizzly per square mile), and I shoot a Model Seven carbine in .350 Rem Mag. A carbine in one of the short magnums would be a better choice, but he already owns this rifle, the bears run a bit smaller where he lives and I'd say he's at least adequately covered.
 
Girodin: It may or may not have been, who knows?
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Grizzlies charge for different reasons. Sows will usually get in between you and the cubs and make a lot noise and back down pretty quickly as long as the cubs are making an exit. You're right that there are no absolutes, but these guys would have played it better had they immediately started paddling towards the other side of the stream when seeing the cubs - of course it happened awful quick, so maybe they didn't have time. Territorial displays like that one are usually about cubs, or food caches, etc, and they rarely result in the bear coming all the way in.

I think the shooter played it pretty good by shooting into the water. Had he shot the bear, especially considering he had a handgun, he'd probably have only wounded it and just amplified the problem for themselves or the next person that bear encountered.
 
Gunnie: i know a central alaska hunting guide with 20 years experience who switched to the FAL for back-up on bear hunts after noting that ALL of the PH's carried that on his hunt in africa.
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This is not a guide I would hire. All the guides I know use carbines in .45/70 or short barreled .375's. The first thing a wounded bear does is run for the nearest alder jungle where the visibility is measured in feet. You can't even walk in alders, you have to sort of slither, crawl and climb over the tangled branches. I own a G1 FAL and like it for kinds of reasons, but it would absolutely not be my rifle of choice for poking around in the alders after an angry bear.
 
KodiakBeer said:
I think some of you are missing the point. He's looking for an all-around rifle. There is no rifle for every occasion. If he just wanted a bear protection rifle, I'd advise him to buy a Marlin Guide Gun and be done with it. But, he's looking for a camp rifle, deer rifle, bear gun, and probably a two-legged predator gun as well.

A .308 with 180's has close to 3000 ft lbs of muzzle energy (less in his shortened barrel version), but still capable of plenty of penetration. When you consider that against people who carry .44 magnums for bear protection, then he's toting two or two and a half times the muzzle energy. Maybe that puts it in better perspective.

And he can still knock down a deer at a couple hundred yards. As long as he doesn't mount a high power scope and make it useless for close range bear encounters, he's not not doing badly.

As for weight, I wouldn't consider that a big deal. Length is more important than weight. Bear trouble is all too often in thick cover, and a short barrel counts for more than an extra 1 or 2 pounds of weight.

With that said, it's not what I would choose. My circumstances are similar (I hunt deer in country with about 1 grizzly per square mile), and I shoot a Model Seven carbine in .350 Rem Mag. A carbine in one of the short magnums would be a better choice, but he already owns this rifle, the bears run a bit smaller where he lives and I'd say he's at least adequately covered.
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We know what he wants bro... God gave all of us brains, we know he wants an all around camp rifle... but we think he's highly misguided for thinking that an all around camp rifle in .308 caliber will function for bear protection IT WILL NOT. Of course having a .308 caliber is better then your bare hands but its not gonna stop a chargin bear intent on killing you and THATS A FACT
 
Hate to break it to the thread starter BUT a .308 WILL NOT STOP A CHARGING BEAR INTENT ON KILLING YOU WITH ONE SHOT ... if you disagree with me go and ask any bear hunting guide alaska... they'll say the same thing... ITS A FACT

Now.. HUNTING BEAR with a .308 and having a guide with a .45-70 or .458 win mag backing you up is a very different story!
 
I still would not even trek through bear country with a .308 especially where visibility is low because you'd be in bad shape if it charged you. Unless I had a .500 s&w revolver on my side then i'd go with the .308
 
but we think he's highly misguided for thinking that an all around camp rifle in .308 caliber will function for bear protection IT WILL NOT. Of course having a .308 caliber is better then your bare hands but its not gonna stop a chargin bear intent on killing you and THATS A FACT
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Nonsense

Hate to break it to the thread starter BUT a .308 WILL NOT STOP A CHARGING BEAR INTENT ON KILLING YOU WITH ONE SHOT ... if you disagree with me go and ask any bear hunting guide alaska... they'll say the same thing... ITS A FACT

Now.. HUNTING BEAR with a .308 and having a guide with a .45-70 or .458 win mag backing you up is a very different story!
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Nonsense.....again....actually if you ask to many guides they will tell you to have with you the rifle you shoot better and comfortably, regardless of caliber (up to a point) if that rifle is a 458 Lott, more power to you.

Yes there are some hi-tech, infrared scope equipped sport guides that maybe killed 3 bears in their life (maybe backed by a small platoon of other people) and spend more time at outdoor industry shows than actually in the bush that will tell you that power is not enough and you should bring to camp the biggest boomer your pocket can afford...but I'm not talking about these people.

I still would not even trek through bear country with a .308 especially where visibility is low because you'd be in bad shape if it charged you. Unless I had a .500 s&w revolver on my side then i'd go with the .308
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Nonsense #3...so you think a 500 S&W revolver (maybe even a short barreled one) is a better bear stopper than a proper 308 load?? ...hmm ok.

Talking in absolutes is a pretty good way to be incorrect.
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You are right...maybe by the time it get to you a lightning will come from the sky and fry the bear ...who knows, anything can happen :D:D Sometimes bears get scared during a bluff charge just by yelling at them.....I was talking about a real charge with the bear dead set on shredding you to pieces....put it in this way...a stick, yelling, whistling, praying, a non CNS bullet hit, etc... may stop the bear....a CNS hit will surely stop the bear.

The first thing a wounded bear does is run for the nearest alder jungle where the visibility is measured in feet. You can't even walk in alders, you have to sort of slither, crawl and climb over the tangled branches. I own a G1 FAL and like it for kinds of reasons, but it would absolutely not be my rifle of choice for poking around in the alders after an angry bear.
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It does make one iota of difference on what caliber you carry (again I'm not talking about a 22 LR or a 223 and such) in that situation (visibility in feet and wounded bear) you get maybe one shot and that shot is better going where need to go.....a 30-06 loaded with 220 grainers or a 458 Win Mag does not change the equation at all.
 
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This is a bear dragging a 1000 pound moose like a RAGDOLL... this is a 1000 pound animal and he manhandles it with the same effort if you reached in the fridge to grab a container of milk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tolJb...eature=related


now you think your gonna stop that with a bullet the size of a pencil eraser? gimme a break, this thread is stupid this is my last post
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Yes I'm sure that a bullet starting with the magic "4" number is a better killer...sure

I can drag 250 pounds on the ground....but a 9mm round to the head still turn my lights out.

I agree this should be your last post on the subject.....;)

I'm surprised Caribou has not yet read this thread....:D
 
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