7mm-08 thoughts

[Llama Bob]

What's cheating? And who the hell says you need a "premium" bullet for elk? I've killed plenty of elk with core lokt bullets.

2495 is admittedly not the best powder for heavy bullets, picking up some Power Pro 2000-MR today. I also shoot a 20 bbl so I'm probably 75-100 fps slower than what it could be with a 22 or 24 inch barrel.

There's a pretty clear SAAMI and CIP definition of what a .308 is, and the maximum OAL is 2.80". What you've got there is a wildcat .308-long. It's not a big deal, but it's not an apples to apples comparison unless you re-work the 7mm-08 load to be long too.

Also, just a heads up I put that load in QL and I get pretty much your velocity, but you're 4K over-pressure. So another reason that's not a legal .308.

The only way to make the .308 even come close it violate SAAMI specs and make it not a .308 any more

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

Really? Frankly I don't believe you. Here's the challenge: tell me the recipe you want to use for your perfect .308 elk load. The requirements:

- no ridiculously temp sensitive powders (RL-17, RL-26 etc.)
- you must use a premium bullet (partition/a-frame/bonded)
- sectional density over .300 to ensure pass throgugh
- you must retain at least 1200 ft/lbs of energy at your max range
- you must exceed the manufacturer's min velocity for expansion at max range

Tell me what your formula is, and we'll run it through QuickLoad and JBM along side my 7mm-08 load, and see which one has the greater max range and flatter trajectory.

Hmmm, boy that is tempting... Let's see, spend the rest of the morning formulating boutique load data so I can engage in a debate on the Internet with someone I don't know, who won't care, in front of a disinterested audience, of which the only reward is "to be right in the Internet." Alternatively I can, put a turkey in the smoker, go to the range with the kids, and spend time with my family followed by an awesome family dinner. I have to admit... I'm leaning towards just enjoying the rest of the day with the family.

If it's that important to you, I challenge you to pick up some similarly constructed factory loads of both, hunt down some game of any size, hit them in the kill zone, and then ask them if they felt a difference.

 

[Llama Bob]

Incidentally, if I adjust everything to be totally fair vs. the 7mm-08 load (2.8OAL, back down pressure to be the same at just below 60KPSI, 22in barrel) QL says you'll get 2443 ft/s - so right at about 150 ft/s gap. Compare apples to apples (at any OAL and pressure) and that gap will stay about the same.

As said before, the only way the .308 can win is to cheat

Oh, and living in elk country and having shot my fair share and watched a LOT be shot, you want a premium bullet. Cup & core bullets like the ELD-X (or core-lokt for that matter) have a bad habit of coming apart and leaving no exit wound on a heart-lung shot. That means almost no external blood loss, so the animal takes a long time to drop and leaves no blood trail. Bad combo.

 

[Orcon]

Bob, what does 46 grains of 2000-MR do with that load?

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

I've ran the #'s time and time again...the 7mm-08 is better than the .308 in every way. It has bullets with higher bc and better sd. To equal the sd and bc of a 7mm bullet the .308 diameter has to add bullet weight. The added weight equals slower velocity...

And as far as ammo availability that's an argument that doesn't hold water. Do you really think anyone would take a once in a lifetime hunt and think "I'll just buy ammo when I get there" NOBODY would you will be prepared and take it with you.

There are plenty of people who hunt regularly. Not every hunt is a once I a lifetime. In addition, if I went on a "once-in-a-lifetime" hunt, I'd tend to use what I've prove works every other day of the week rather than working up some sort of special cartridge for it. There are hundreds of thousands of hunters who use nothing but off the shelf ammunition and there are freezers full of meat that prove that it works just fine.

 

[Llama Bob]

Hmmm, boy that is tempting... Let's see, spend the rest of the morning formulating boutique load data so I can engage in a debate on the Internet with someone I don't know, who won't care, in front of a disinterested audience, of which the only reward is "to be right in the Internet." Alternatively I can, put a turkey in the smoker, go to the range with the kids, and spend time with my family followed by an awesome family dinner. I have to admit... I'm leaning towards just enjoying the rest of the day with the family.

If it's that important to you, I challenge you to pick up some similarly constructed factory loads of both, hunt down some game of any size, hit them in the kill zone, and then ask them if they felt a difference.

In other words, you have exactly zero data to support your previous claims. I knew that, and just wanted to make you admit it

 

[Llama Bob]

Bob, what does 46 grains of 2000-MR do with that load?

Wish I could tell you - QuickLoad doesn't have data for it. Does it have a European name? Maybe later I'll hunt around and see if there's a data file out there somewhere.

 

[FL-NC]

I know people esp. in Texas who adore the 7-08. From them, and what I've read, its a fine caliber to do what you want and more. I'm a 243 fan, and don't see a need to switch or add on another similar caliber. Also where I live you can't get 7-08 at wal mart, so it fails the wal mart test in that any gun I buy I should be able to get ammo for it there.

 

[Llama Bob]

The best I found fast is that it's very similar to VV550, which is in fact a good choice for this application, albeit probably very temp sensitive compared to AA2495.

With 2.86 OAL, VV550, 46gr(compressed) I get 2445 ft/s and 56K psi. That looks real promising. Obviously don't just substitute for 2000-MR - find real load data.

 

[homers]

Hmmm, boy that is tempting... Let's see, spend the rest of the morning formulating boutique load data so I can engage in a debate on the Internet with someone I don't know, who won't care, in front of a disinterested audience, of which the only reward is "to be right in the Internet." Alternatively I can, put a turkey in the smoker, go to the range with the kids, and spend time with my family followed by an awesome family dinner. I have to admit... I'm leaning towards just enjoying the rest of the day with the family.

If it's that important to you, I challenge you to pick up some similarly constructed factory loads of both, hunt down some game of any size, hit them in the kill zone, and then ask them if they felt a difference.

LOL, Nobody ever wins an internet battle. Get's old hearing about how one mans penis is bigger than somebody else's. Thanks for keeping this forum civilized.

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

In other words, you have exactly zero data to support your previous claims. I knew that, and just wanted to make you admit it

You know what, I'm fine conceding that I have no data to support that .308 can outperform the 7mm-08 hand loads. I really don't have the drive to work up loads for something I don't load and never will. In-fact I'll also admit that my goal in reloading isn't to design boutique special purpose loads but rather to get better quality ammunition at a reduced cost so I afford to go out and actually use my firearm on the range or in the field more often and gain valuable experience and enjoyment. I'll stick with with my claim that my research established to my satisfaction, that is not a practical enough difference to me to venture out of using the .308 which is one of the most affordable, versatile, and available cartridge available today. There is no problem a 7mm-08 can that a .308 cannot solve with similar outcomes.

 

[Bart B.]

Llama Bob,

I was responding to the comment that the 7mm-08 will do everything a .308 can do and it will do it better. Everything includes matches.

If that's outside your realm of reasoning, so be it. It's part of mine that includes "everything."

 

[Orcon]

What's your 175gr recipe there Bob? Hodgdon only has 3 loads that top 2550fps and Western powders has 2 loads that top 2500fps