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9mm 124gr fail-to-feed

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by wcjjr, Feb 10, 2020.

  1. wcjjr

    wcjjr Member

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    I'm a new reloader looking for a little advice. I have some 124gr plated loaded with 3.6gr of Titegroup. According to Lee the min OAL is 1.150 and mine average around 1.155. Had several fail-to-feed issues in both a G19 and a G17. I tightened up the crimp and I think that helped a lot but still had one ftf in the last 30 I shot. Any suggestions how to fix this problem? Should I try to get the OAL closer to the minimum? Should I tighten the crimp just a little more.
     
  2. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    I am guessing these are plated RN bullets.

    Glock 17/19 should reliably feed and fully chamber even longer than SAAMI max 1.169" rounds.

    To make sure you are full length sizing the case, resize several cases to make sure they freely drop in the chamber of the barrel. And use these resized cases to load your test rounds.

    I usually load 124 gr RN bullets to 1.135" but you can certainly load them to 1.150". (I only load longer than 1.135" if I am compressing powder charge due to using less dense, fluffy powders). Make sure finished rounds drop in the chamber freely with a "plonk" and spin without hitting the rifling.

    And since case wall thickness averages .011", I usually add .022" to the diameter of the bullet for the taper crimp amount. (You don't want to use too much taper crimp with plates bullets as you may cut into plating and/or deform/reduce the bullet diameter which can decrease neck tension to increase bullet setback)

    So if your bullets are sized .355", use .377" taper crimp and no more than .378" or the flared case mouth can hang up with chamber wall.

    And function test finished rounds by pointing the pistol in a safe direction, lock slide back to insert magazine and release slide without riding it. And measure OAL before and after to check for any bullet setback.
     
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  3. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    What kind of failure to feed are you getting?

    Have you done the old "plunk test"?

    Are you case gauging finished rounds?
     
  4. wcjjr

    wcjjr Member

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    Thanks for the advice. Yes, they are Berry's RN. I should have mentioned that I've loaded a few batches like this before with no problems. Just this one batch (so far) seems to have an issue. I'm pretty sure the bullets are .356 and I did measure the brass on the finished rounds and they are right at .378. I test all rounds with a Lyman gauge and if they don't slip in and out easily I redo them. I have about 200 more rounds loaded the same so I'll test them in the barrel as you suggested.

    Being very new at this I would worry about loading to 1.135 for 124gr since most of the data I see gives a min of 1.150.
     
  5. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    I would a few of them to fall between 1.130 & 1.135 and just stop a little short of max (.2?) for that data. I wouldn't be using Titegroup, so I'm guessing at that part.

    What velocity are you looking for?
     
  6. reddog81

    reddog81 Member

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    What dies are you using? The Lee seating die is notorious for backing out a little at a time causing some rounds to be longer than intended.

    What type of failure to feed are you getting? Without knowing this people might be throwing out random suggestions that make no sense.

    1.169 is the max 9mm OAL. 1.15 is pushing pretty close to that, especially for a Min OAL. According to Hodgdon's website 3.6 is the starting load for Titegroup and the bullet you're using. I wouldn't be too worried about adjusting down to 1.14 with a starting load.
     
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  7. AJC1

    AJC1 Member

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    Auto pistols don't t really crimp like rifle or revolver. The crimp is just to remove the flare used for bullet seating. Increased crimp may exasperate your issues
     
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  8. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    If the rounds are plunking (no bullet interference fit with rifling) and are case gauging, it seems unlikely to be a crimp issue, unless you're getting a variable crimp (not running the handle the same way every time).

    You're right at the starting load. It's possible that the guns are short-stroking the cycle.
     
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  9. BC17A

    BC17A Member

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    Don't be afraid to sink them to 1.140" or even 1.130". You'll be fine starting at 3.6 TG and probably want to work up closer to 4 before you see their best accuracy.
     
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  10. lordpaxman

    lordpaxman Member

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    What’s the FTF? Where’s the hang up? Sounds like a failure to chamber completely if you tightened the crimp a bit and it helped.
    What kind of brass are you using and how are you preparing it? Range brass can have several headstamps and you might have bulged brass.
    If you case gauge it keep track of the headstamps and see if there’s a trend happening.
     
  11. stillquietvoice

    stillquietvoice Member

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    IMG_20200210_195629.jpg

    Check the shape of the rn. These are both 125 lrn hard cast the one on the left would not chamber in my 5904 at 1.14 in the one on the right will. The left oal is 1.20" it functions flawlessly with no pressure issues. Notice that the nose is not full diameter.

    IMG_20200210_200304.jpg

    From Lyman 49 120 lrn 1.065 oal.
     
  12. TonyAngel

    TonyAngel Member

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    With those lead projectiles, a bit of the shoulder should be protruding from the case. For autos, you can get away with roll crimping if you’re measuring case length. Just enough of a crimp to take the bell out since 9mm headspace son the case mouth. Just enough so bullets don’t get pushed in during cycling.

    ideally, you’d taper crimp or factory crimp for an auto.
     
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  13. mrawesome22-250

    mrawesome22-250 Member

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    Too weak would be my guess. Increase powder charge and try again.
     
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  14. AJC1

    AJC1 Member

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    First experience with a cz-sp01 it would only cycle with my max test load of 5.8 gr unique behind a 115. My 4.0 of tightgroup was not even close. You may have issues at starting or low loads in semi automatic. It was my first experience like this. Build small batches like 5 going up to max and stop when it cycles reliably. My glock 17 will eat anything so its easyer on me.
     
  15. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Keep in mind, OP is using Berry's 124 gr plated RN loaded to 1.155"
    We all know Glocks will reliably feed and chamber 124 gr RN bullets loaded to 1.169".

    Good point.

    If finished rounds fall into the barrel freely with a "plonk" and spin without hitting the rifling and reliably feed from the magazine when the slide is manually released without riding it, they should reliably cycle the slide to feed from the magazine UNLESS you are not using enough powder to fully cycle the slide.

    Speer load data for 124 gr TMJ (Total Metal Jacket, also plated RN bullet but thicker plated) loaded to 1.135" OAL lists 4.0 gr of Titegroup as start charge - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...m_caliber_355-366_dia/9mm_Luger__124_rev1.pdf
    • 124 gr Speer TMJ Titegroup 1.135" OAL Start 4.0 gr (1020 fps) - Max 4.4 gr (1095 fps)
    And Hodgdon load data for 124 gr Berry's HBRN-TP (Berry's thick plated hollow base RN) - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
    • 124 gr Berry's HBRN-TP Titegroup 1.150" COL Start 3.6 gr (957 fps) - Max 4.1 gr (1057 fps)

    I have tested Berry's regular plated RN (solid base) in my Glocks from 3.8 gr to 4.3 gr using 1.160" OAL and they all reliably cycled the slide and fed/chambered from the magazine without issues - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...e-pistol-reloaders.746062/page-2#post-9382933

    If you want to keep your OAL at 1.155", I would suggest you test 3.8 gr and 4.0 gr. If you want to try shorter 1.135" OAL, I would suggest testing 3.6 gr and 3.8 gr.

    BTW, these are 25 yard groups with Berry's regular RN bullets and Titegroup - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ts-and-discussions.778197/page-6#post-9924922

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
  16. stillquietvoice

    stillquietvoice Member

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    Use a black marker on the exposed portion jof the bullet just past the cartridge mouth. It will show if the bullet is hitting the lands or not. If it is in the lands your bullet will have small lines where the marker is missing.
     
  17. cougar1717

    cougar1717 Member

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    I really don't think it's a brass sizing issue. When a person is just starting out, it's not that hard to make sure that the case goes all the way into the sizing die.
    The OP has already plunked them via a case gauge. It's a good idea to plunk test them in the chamber. If they fit the case gauge, they should fit the trusted, always cycling, "generous" Glock chamber - but it is worth checking.

    From the information given, I would think that the powder charge weight is the issue.

    Titegroup is one of those powders that new reloaders like because they are typically thinking about cost instead of performance and they typically don't realize the benefit to using a relatively slower powder for more margin between starting and maximum loads. The OP is using the starting load, which does not always consistently cycle a semi-auto, especially if the weather is cold. Sometimes loads worked up in warmer seasons are on the edge of cycling and then fail to cycle when temps get colder.

    It would be worth a test to bump the charge weight up a couple of tenths to see if that solves the issue.

    When a reloader is starting out, it is possible that belling and crimping could be the source of a FTF. If the case is belled too much, a person tries to compensate by crimping more, which puts a bulge in the case near the mouth. Even if this happened, why would the case fit in the case gauge, but not in the chamber?
    That said, typically, more crimp is not the answer to fixing FTF's, unless you plunk test and feel that cartridge scrape the inside of the chamber walls. The 9mm Luger headspaces on the case mouth. It needs to be straight and not crimped into a groove like a revolver cartridge.

    I doubt the cartridge OAL has anything to do with the FTF. Glocks have a huge tolerance for long cartridges. I would not doubt that a cartridge could stick out of the case gauge check, but still chamber in a Glock.

    If the same batch of ammo FTF'd in two glocks, my vote (from the information given) is that the starting load does not have enough powder to cycle in cold weather.
     
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  18. wcjjr

    wcjjr Member

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    Thank you all for the great advice. I'm only using Titegroup because it is what the shop suggested when I bought the Lee Turret Press. I've used HS-6 also and will probably not use Titegroup again once it's finished. I had been wondering if the powder charge was a little light so I think I'll go ahead and bump it up a couple tenths as suggested. I'll try some different seating depths too but will probably stay above 1.140 for now.

    Please advise if HS-6 is a good choice and if you have any other recommendations.
     
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  19. wcjjr

    wcjjr Member

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    BTW. Plunk test in barrel and marked up with black marker. All seems fine.
     
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  20. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    HS-6 is a slower burning powder meant for full power/higher velocity loads. But like most other slower burning powders, optimal powder burn and accuracy are achieved at higher charges of near max to max load data so not suitable for lighter target loads (which essentially what you are trying to do with Titegroup)

    For new reloaders who tend to load lighter target loads using start/lower powder charges, many recommend W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol which are faster burning and can produce accuracy even at lower load data. There are moderately slower burning powders that are capable of producing accurate loads even at mid-range load data like BE-86 and WSF.

    Titegroup is slightly faster burning than W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol but since it burns hot and violent at near max/max charges, many do not recommend it for new reloaders. BUT I do like Titegroup for 9mm as it produces greater accuracy loads compared to W231/HP-38 (I need to push 115 gr FMJ/RN to near max load data to produce accuracy). So if you are happy with Titegroup accuracy, there's no reason to switch powders, especially if you are loading lighter target loads.

    If you are looking for comparable powders to Titegroup, I would suggest IMR Target, Accurate No 2, Vhitavuori N320, Alliant Sport Pistol along with Winchester 231/Hodgdon HP-38 (same powder).


    Look at the following groups of powders I clustered from faster burning to slower burning and if you are wanting to load lighter 9mm target loads, you want to use powders in the Red Dot/Promo to W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol burn rate range - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-10966508

    If you want to load higher velocity loads, W244/Unique/Universal/Unequal to HS-6/CFE Pistol/AutoComp are better suited 9mm powders.


    Faster burning pistol powders:

    E3 - Competition - Nitro 100 - N310 - Norma R1

    Red Dot/Promo - IMR Red - Clays - 700X - Bullseye - Vectan Ba 10 - IMR Target - TiteGroup - Vectan AS - Am. Select - Solo 1000 - WST - International - Trail Boss - N320 - Vectan Ba 9.5 - No. 2 - Clean Shot/Lovex D032.03

    W231/HP-38 - Zip - Sport Pistol - Green Dot - IMR Green - W244

    Slower burning pistol powders
    :

    Unique - Universal - IMR Unequal - Vectan Ba 9 - BE-86 - Power Pistol - N330 - Vectan A1 - Herco - Vectan A0 - WSF - N340 - 800X

    No. 5 - Auto Pistol/Lovex D036-03 - True Blue - HS6 - AutoComp - Ultimate Pistol/Lovex D036-07 - CFE Pistol - Silhouette - 3N37

    N350 - 3N38 - IMR Blue - W572 - Blue Dot - No. 7 - Major Pistol/Lovex D037-01 - Vectan Ba 7.5 - Pro Reach - Long Shot - 2400

    Enforcer - No. 9 - Heavy Pistol/Lovex D037-02 - 4100 - Steel - Norma R123 - N110 - Lil'Gun - W296/H110 - 300-MP - 11FS - Vectan Ba 6.5 - H4227
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
  21. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    FYI, if you want to become more familiar with popular powders used for 9mm, check out this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-7#post-10094185

    And here's a reference thread listed in the "Reloading Library of Wisdom" for same exact and comparable powders to use when shopping for powders (Why pay more when you can buy same/comparable powders for less?) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-different-labels.797388/page-6#post-10806193

    And if you haven't, definitely check out the "Reloading Library of Wisdom" to help you start off in your reloading hobby - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/reloading-library-of-wisdom.649184/
     
  22. stillquietvoice

    stillquietvoice Member

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    I'm using that now with 125 lrn. My current load is 5.5 gr 6.0 is Max listed. I changed bullets recently, wich is one of the reasons I suggested checking oal the new one has no shoulder like the old one.

    Happy it worked out with your length.
     
  23. stillquietvoice

    stillquietvoice Member

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    Welcome to the forum. I should have noticed sooner.
     
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  24. wcjjr

    wcjjr Member

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    Thank you, stillquietvoice. I'm glad I finally checked in here. Got some great advice in just a short period of time.
     
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  25. 2bfree

    2bfree Member

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    Not the min, just what they used with that bullet and that powder.
     
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