9mm deer load

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Nature Boy said:
I'm not making any value judgements here. It's your time and your deer
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Well, it may not be his deer if it isn't located after a hit. My observations about the majority of big game hunters: overweight, out of shape and disinclined/unable to do the prolonged tracking that may be required to locate and then carry-out the animal. Easier job tracking in the flatlands but mountains/altitude leave many gasping and headed home empty-handed after wounding shots. A sad reality.
 
Frulk said:
“Its so flat here I can watch my dog run away for 3 days.”

You’re probably going to also be able to say that about the deer you shot with a 9mm.
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Strange, no one says that about deer taken with 357mag revolvers.
 
The 9mm deer load comes down to a 125gr bullet (a 357sig bullet) but I'm way above 357sig velocity (1,580fps +/-10) and I'll check for fragmentation.
Or a 147gr load.
I have a real hot 147gr 9Major load using HS-6, I could switch to shellshock cases and up the charge of HS-6 even more or switch to AA7, or bluedot.
The147gr 9Major loads don't even want to reliably cycle my sten gun.
 
I looked up a bunch of 9mm hand gun on ballistic gel tests with 124 and 147gr bullets.
Looks like 9mm from a handgun, 124gr 9mm luger HP bullets penetration is pretty consistently around 13 inches.
147gr penetration is was more like 16 inches.
But 124gr had bigger temporary stretch cavity and permanent cavity than 147gr.
So I expect similar results in a 9mm carbine with hot ammo.
So what's better, a bigger hole or deeper bullet?

I figure if the bullet has to go through anywhere near 13 inches of deer meat to hit something important then it was a bad shot to begin with.
 
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You keep recycling 124/ 125 gr load comparisons even after being told it's not a good option by multiple people that have used 35 caliber pistols on deer and hogs.

Here's what I tell my nephew when he asks for advice and argues with the given advice.
(Go try it then. But don't complain when it fails.)
 
If the bullet passes through 10 inches of deer to get to heart and lungs it's a bad shot. How does a heavier bullet fix that?

My step brother shot his first 4 deer with 22wmr rifle with winchester 40gr grey box HP, which I looked up, out of a rifle they expanded to .45 if you're lucky and penetrate about 9 inches of ballistic gel.
No replacement for shot placement it would seem.
 
milsurpguy said:
If the bullet passes through 10 inches of deer to get to heart and lungs it's a bad shot. How does a heavier bullet fix that?

My step brother shot his first 4 deer with 22wmr rifle with winchester 40gr grey box HP, which I looked up, out of a rifle they expanded to .45 if you're lucky and penetrate about 9 inches of ballistic gel.
No replacement for shot placement it would seem.
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The bullet you seen insistent on using is designed to hopefully leave one hole in a person. This doesn't leave a good blood trail.
A 9mm will need a good blood trail because it most likely will not result in a bang flop.
Using a 147 gold dot or similar will at least increase your odds of success.
I've had a deer run 200 yards after drilling it through the heart with a 45 caliber muzzleloader bullet. The only thing that saved me was a good blood trail.
 
milsurpguy said:
Post it for all to see. Ain't gonna hurt my feelers.
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Mark_Mark said:
share if you care, unless it a traumatic event, then we completely understand
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Ugh. This horse is beaten to death and back again. I'll do my best to keep it brief.

It's commonly said that due to bullet technology , the 9mm has become the "equal" of the the larger cartridges. Naturally the other traditionally "more effective" cartridges would have benefited from the same advancements . so there's that. Reality is that any bullet , if placed in the right location will do the trick and in the wrong place will fail to do the job quickly. Everyone knows that. So with that in mind, the larger diameter wins. Statistically it will have a better chance of striking something important- although very slight. Expansion isn't a given and a lot of factors affect that, starting out larger will guarantee a larger entry wound no matter if expansion happens or not- that's a good thing. Bigger holes let the blood out faster, which is what were really seeking regardless of how we get there. Almost all pistol cartridges fail to deliver hydrostatic shock so it's a matter of striking something important and making a big enough hole to drain a living things life force as quickly as possible, therefore bigger is obviously ( to me) better.

Beyond that, the 9mm produces more blast and fuss than the 380 acp. Same diameter and both must hit vitals to be effective, I think we can all agree on that . so I can't see any benefit a 9mm has over the 380, which is going to generally be more compact and easier/more pleasant to shoot. Compare the 9mm to 45 acp , one is subsonic and larger, the other is generally super sonic but is often slowed by the compact guns normally associated with concealed firearms. The point in mentioning that is just that when dealing with lighter and faster projectiles they depend on their speed to be effective - if this wasn't the case 380 acp would have taken the place of the 9mm years ago. Larger heavier bullets do their business with mass, they don't use speed as a crutch for diameter. If I were to need to fire a handgun in a confined space I'd choose the one that's subsonic (if that's a factor ).

Past all that, folks will move to the capacity debate. While a 9mm will hold more in a magazine, the point is that a 380 would carry just as many and either will need to hit vitals or it won't be effective. If you miss your intended target with 15 rounds of 9mm, it won't be as effective as a good hit with a 22 lr. I think everyone knows that. To be fair, same thing with any bullet. So why has the 9mm been so popular? I can't really say. 380 acp more times than not fails to expand or penetrate enough while 9mms do expand well and penetrate sufficiently but it's no use if the target isn't hit. My gripe is more fmj from 9mm because it offers nothing over a 380 fmj. Either will pass through a person without a problem. Not that a lot of folks carry fmj but the military uses it and some folks have guns that prefer it for feeding. If fmj is to be used, seems obvious that bigger is better. If expanding bullets are chosen we get right back to needing to hit something important , wider diameter has a better chance of clipping something important while the heavier bullet can penetrate usually better.

Last point, 9mm is puny and I've never heard of one single thing it does "best". Every cartridge should be able to have at least one thing it can do that makes it relevant , I struggle to think of what that is for the 9mm. It just seems like an extra cartridge without a purpose .

Didn't want to throw the first rock in a caliber war or derail this thread. I just don't like 9mm and would never want one . yes I've shot plenty of 9mm in my life but I've never had any interest in owning one , could never see the use.

Please share your thoughts but understand, I don't think my opinion can be swayed. Also understand that this is my OPINION, no one needs to agree with me. We can both be right but at the end of the day, I'll always choose the most powerful carry gun I can control and shoot well and it'll never be 9mm.
 
I would have to laugh at anyone that tried to claim 9mm was a “best choice” for the job or even a “good” one. Would question their judgment if they claimed it was a “decent” choice but to say one couldn’t kill a deer with one would be a head in the sand argument.

I would say it’s a bad choice for deer, but I have many, many better options to pick from. The 3 pigs I killed last Saturday with 38 spl loads keep me well away from saying 9mm can’t work.

I would also have to concede there are worse choices but that list is far shorter than the one containing better ones.
 
Can we please be done with threads that boil down to, "I have these guns, and they're cool, and I want to shoot somebody but I can't shoot people so I'm going to shoot dear. Now everybody else can marvel at how cool I am..." Using a .22Short or .45ACP or .32ACP to "hunt deer" is irresponsible and inhumane. It violates every rule of responsible behavior. We can't stop people from tormenting animals or bragging about doing it but can we at least shun them when they do?
 
Obturation said:
Ugh. This horse is beaten to death and back again. I'll do my best to keep it brief.

It's commonly said that due to bullet technology , the 9mm has become the "equal" of the the larger cartridges. Naturally the other traditionally "more effective" cartridges would have benefited from the same advancements . so there's that. Reality is that any bullet , if placed in the right location will do the trick and in the wrong place will fail to do the job quickly. Everyone knows that. So with that in mind, the larger diameter wins. Statistically it will have a better chance of striking something important- although very slight. Expansion isn't a given and a lot of factors affect that, starting out larger will guarantee a larger entry wound no matter if expansion happens or not- that's a good thing. Bigger holes let the blood out faster, which is what were really seeking regardless of how we get there. Almost all pistol cartridges fail to deliver hydrostatic shock so it's a matter of striking something important and making a big enough hole to drain a living things life force as quickly as possible, therefore bigger is obviously ( to me) better.

Beyond that, the 9mm produces more blast and fuss than the 380 acp. Same diameter and both must hit vitals to be effective, I think we can all agree on that . so I can't see any benefit a 9mm has over the 380, which is going to generally be more compact and easier/more pleasant to shoot. Compare the 9mm to 45 acp , one is subsonic and larger, the other is generally super sonic but is often slowed by the compact guns normally associated with concealed firearms. The point in mentioning that is just that when dealing with lighter and faster projectiles they depend on their speed to be effective - if this wasn't the case 380 acp would have taken the place of the 9mm years ago. Larger heavier bullets do their business with mass, they don't use speed as a crutch for diameter. If I were to need to fire a handgun in a confined space I'd choose the one that's subsonic (if that's a factor ).

Past all that, folks will move to the capacity debate. While a 9mm will hold more in a magazine, the point is that a 380 would carry just as many and either will need to hit vitals or it won't be effective. If you miss your intended target with 15 rounds of 9mm, it won't be as effective as a good hit with a 22 lr. I think everyone knows that. To be fair, same thing with any bullet. So why has the 9mm been so popular? I can't really say. 380 acp more times than not fails to expand or penetrate enough while 9mms do expand well and penetrate sufficiently but it's no use if the target isn't hit. My gripe is more fmj from 9mm because it offers nothing over a 380 fmj. Either will pass through a person without a problem. Not that a lot of folks carry fmj but the military uses it and some folks have guns that prefer it for feeding. If fmj is to be used, seems obvious that bigger is better. If expanding bullets are chosen we get right back to needing to hit something important , wider diameter has a better chance of clipping something important while the heavier bullet can penetrate usually better.

Last point, 9mm is puny and I've never heard of one single thing it does "best". Every cartridge should be able to have at least one thing it can do that makes it relevant , I struggle to think of what that is for the 9mm. It just seems like an extra cartridge without a purpose .

Didn't want to throw the first rock in a caliber war or derail this thread. I just don't like 9mm and would never want one . yes I've shot plenty of 9mm in my life but I've never had any interest in owning one , could never see the use.

Please share your thoughts but understand, I don't think my opinion can be swayed. Also understand that this is my OPINION, no one needs to agree with me. We can both be right but at the end of the day, I'll always choose the most powerful carry gun I can control and shoot well and it'll never be 9mm.
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Nice write up and I agree. Pistol is a compromise to a rifle. Pistol are not effective for a 1 shot drop. That being said, it’s better than a sharp stick and much more concerned friendly.

Your 9mm is there so you can get to your rifle
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Can we please be done with threads that boil down to, "I have these guns, and they're cool, and I want to shoot somebody but I can't shoot people so I'm going to shoot dear. Now everybody else can marvel at how cool I am..." Using a .22Short or .45ACP or .32ACP to "hunt deer" is irresponsible and inhumane. It violates every rule of responsible behavior. We can't stop people from tormenting animals or bragging about doing it but can we at least shun them when they do?
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You don't have to read them, nor reply to them . It really is that simple .
 
Well it appears that 45acp for example is too slow to open up a lot of heavy HP designs. The lucky gunner ballistic gel tests show up to half of 230gr loadings don't open up or failed to impress. But when they do, holey cow, that premium federal "bonded" (gold dot knock off maybe?) 230gr +p loading opened up to .85 and went in about 18 inches. The federal hydra shock was pretty nasty looking too and we can buy those as loose projectiles, when they come back in stock.
By comparison nearly all the 9mm test HP ammo consistently opened up and went in as far.
So I guess it's easier for 9mm to take advantage of those bullet advances?

GeoDudeFlorida said:
Can we please be done with threads that boil down to, "I have these guns, and they're cool, and I want to shoot somebody but I can't shoot people so I'm going to shoot dear. Now everybody else can marvel at how cool I am..." Using a .22Short or .45ACP or .32ACP to "hunt deer" is irresponsible and inhumane. It violates every rule of responsible behavior. We can't stop people from tormenting animals or bragging about doing it but can we at least shun them when they do?
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For one the sten isn't cool. It looks like I walked into a scrap yard and walked out with several peices of scrap metal that that have been combined to fire bullets.
The sten is a trunk gun, the opposite of cool.
Plus I don't think most of the people who came on here to bash, such as your self bothered to read the part about my sten 9mm loads being equal to a typical 125gr 357mag fired from a 6 inch revolver. A 124 or 125 @1,580 +/- 10 fps doesn't sound like a typical 9mm. The sten pretty much fires 9mm major type loads, and it's normally pointlessly long 9.5 inch M91 barrel can actually take advantage of the heavy load of powder thats usually "too slow for a 9mm".
 
Like I said before a 9mm bullet will take down a deer if moving fast enough. I shoot mine out of a 350 Legend rifle at about 2500 ft per.
It works wonders then with out much recoil & is cheap to reload. If you are going to do a job get the right equipment, hitting it in the right place helps too. With cheap round maybe someone will do a little more practice before going afield.
index.php
 
AK Hunter said:
Like I said before a 9mm bullet will take down a deer if moving fast enough. I shoot mine out of a 350 Legend rifle at about 2500 ft per.
It works wonders then with out much recoil & is cheap to reload. If you are going to do a job get the right equipment, hitting it in the right place helps too. With cheap round maybe someone will do a little more practice before going afield.
index.php
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that’s bad A**!
 
Mark_Mark said:
that’s bad A**!
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Notice the bullet weight ak hunter is using?
You would be far better off using it than a 124.
In real life heavier bullets are more reliable.
Your sten will push them about the same velocity as a 180 grain 357. But it is designed to open up in that velocity window and should penetrate enough for a through and through.
Deer hide is super elastic though.
 
milsurpguy said:
Well it appears that 45acp for example is too slow to open up a lot of heavy HP designs. The lucky gunner ballistic gel tests show up to half of 230gr loadings don't open up or failed to impress. But when they do, holey cow, that premium federal "bonded" (gold dot knock off maybe?) 230gr +p loading opened up to .85 and went in about 18 inches. The federal hydra shock was pretty nasty looking too and we can buy those as loose projectiles, when they come back in stock.
By comparison nearly all the 9mm test HP ammo consistently opened up and went in as far.
So I guess it's easier for 9mm to take advantage of those bullet advances?



For one the sten isn't cool. It looks like I walked into a scrap yard and walked out with several peices of scrap metal that that have been combined to fire bullets.
The sten is a trunk gun, the opposite of cool.
Plus I don't think most of the people who came on here to bash, such as your self bothered to read the part about my sten 9mm loads being equal to a typical 125gr 357mag fired from a 6 inch revolver. A 124 or 125 @1,580 +/- 10 fps doesn't sound like a typical 9mm. The sten pretty much fires 9mm major type loads, and it's normally pointlessly long 9.5 inch M91 barrel can actually take advantage of the heavy load of powder thats usually "too slow for a 9mm".
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The key is hunters using .357 are using 140 Barnes, 158's and even the occasional 180 to hunt deer sized game. They even acknowledge that the .357 should not be the 1st choice for hunting. Mostly the .41/.44 is the generally accepted minimum. I'm not trashing the idea completely, I'd have no qualms downing a deer at 5-35 yds with either my .357 or 10 mm. But they are definitely loaded accordingly and I'm going to take for granted that you know what you're doing enough to plant a critter. In 9mm, hunting quality ammo is rare, perhaps because it's known to be underwhelming as a game taker, or perhaps it isn't known to be a game taker because of a lack of hunting ammo........... regardless, the 9mm in a pinch is not the same thing as a properly loaded .357. If you're comfortable cranking the speeds and can get them to mag length try the 165 ftx, at 1200 ish fps it should do the trick.
 
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