9mm defensive loads

[chieftain]

The fact is any quality JHP from 115-147 grs will do the job well.

Depends on what the "job" is. Pick "Quality" ammunition that has been proven in the lab and on the street. See Dr Roberts earlier recommendations.

Find what feeds in your gun well and is most accurate.

Function in your weapon is critical, and must be tested, extensively. Due to current prices this is not as reasonable as it used to be.

There is no magic bullet.

Particularly if you are "stuck" with a handgun. Handguns are for convenience and concealment. Otherwise use a shoulder weapon when at all possible. My combat experience fully supports this response, go to a fight with a shoulder arm, get caught in a fight with a handgun.

Dr Robters and The FBI say it best:

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset

-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice

-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system

-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

-- Keep shooting until the threat is neutralized; absent CNS hits, incapacitation is very frequently DELAYED until blood loss is sufficient to cause the onset of hypovolemic shock--this could be seconds, minutes, or hours...

-- If you are in a potential threat situation where you are feeling unusually suspicious, your senses are on high alert, you have "alarm bells going off" in your head, etc... if at all possible, it is time to employ a long gun instead of a handgun.

--Dr Gary Roberts Leading American terminal ballistics researcher.

***************************************************************
The cogent advice by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU should be routinely heeded:

“Experienced officers implicitly recognize...when potential violence is reasonably anticipated their preparations are characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible.”

and

“...no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.”

I stay away from +P in 9mm. If you want a +P 9mm you should have bought a 357 SIG.

Actually +P is what would amount to the standard NATO load (124gr FMC @ 1250). That is not the 357SIG. Most often you have to go to +P+ to approach, not match 357SIG loads.

The original 9mm load used by the German Navy starting in 1905 and later the German Army too would be called by American ammunition makers today.

For many years the Luger was considered an unreliable pistol with American 9mm ammunition. It was to weak to operate the pistol with the ammunition it was designed to use. We call it 9mm, +P does not violate SAMMI pressures for the 9mm, they just get very close. This is uniquely an American problem, no where else in the world does this issue exist.

With all that said, using weaker strength ammunition will in most cases help your weapons longevity. Also there are standard (American) loaded ammunition that will work well and is recommended. http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Personally in 9mm I use Cor-Bon DPX 115 +P.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Water-Man]

Federal HST-LE 147gr..

 

[Vanzpp]

I carry a Kahr CW9. The only rounds it seems to choke on are the Cor Bon JHPs. Cor Bon uses Sierra bullets for their traditional HPs, and my Kahr doesn't seem to like the wide mouths.

Other than that, it'll feed anything. I carry PMC 124 gr. Starfire. Those feed flawlessly, as do Gold Dots and Hydra-Shoks.

 

[chieftain]

carry a Kahr CW9. The only rounds it seems to choke on are the Cor Bon JHPs. Cor Bon uses Sierra bullets for their traditional HPs, and my Kahr doesn't seem to like the wide mouths.

Interesting. I have No doubt that is true in the newer Kahr's.

The original K9 Kahr, which I owned a sterling example of, was in fact designed around the Cor-Bon 115 +P of the time (originally Nosler and later went to the Sierra, very effective in either load at the time.), according to Justin Moon, the original designer and owner of Kahr Arms.

Gave that beauty to another beauty. They both worked very well. I miss both of them.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Vanzpp]

I do love my CW9. I got it about 2 years ago. It's my daily carry piece, and I figure I've put about 1500 rounds through it so far with all types of bullets.

The Cor Bon 115 gr. JHPs are the only thing it tends to choke on. Even then, it will still feed them 90% of the time. However, that's nowhere near good enough when you're carrying a load for self-defense! Your chosen load needs to feed as close to 100% as possible.

 

[ByAnyMeans]

I think you should be fine with any major ammunition companies law enforcement or personal defense line. See which one works best and is the most accurate in your firearm and stock up.

I personally use Federal HST 147gr. in a Glock26. It fit my criteria above and ballistics is good from my research. The 147gr 9mm rounds were initially very bad but after the hollow points were developed for the rounds specific to the velocity then they became very good performers.

 

[gofastman]

I don't understand why 147g loads used to be bad, what changed specifically?

 

[chieftain]

I don't understand why 147g loads used to be bad, what changed specifically?

History lesson:

The original use of the 147gr in combat was by the SEAL's in Vietnam in their HK MP5's. They needed a subsonic cartridge to work with the silencers they were using.

They chose the Winchester target round as there were no combat ammunition in that weight at that time. It accomplished the mission. It was a specialized ammunition for a specialized mission.

Be advised that in the standard load in their SIG 226's and now 228's the SEAL's use NATO 124gr FMC @ 1250fps, not the 147 stuff.

Since then the Ammunition manufacturers have developed 147gr bullets that do work well in combat or as most of us use it, the Defense.

My prejudices are from the old days and I have viable alternatives. But folks that I respect are getting good results from the better 147's.

So if it is on Doc Roberts list, I would use it if I chose to use a 147gr load.

Good luck.

Fred

 

[gofastman]

^ Thanks for the lesson! Thats good infomation to know.

 

[frankge]

Rem Golden Sabre 124+P's - accurate in my XD-9c

 

[Vanzpp]

This is interesting:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2449.htm

This 147 gr. Golden Saber was fired from a Rohrbaugh, yet it expanded pretty well from such a short barrel.

 

[Vanzpp]

I just finished reading Stopping Power-A practical analysis of the latest handgun ammunition by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow. It completely changed my perspective on handgun ammunition. I would highly recommend that you read it. FWIW, I have always used gold dots in my guns and they have gone bang every time.

You should read their follow-up, "Street Stoppers."

Very interesting. They speak highly of frangible ammo, like Magsafe and Glaser Safety Slugs, for the smaller calibers, i..e .380, .38 sp. and 9mm.

I'm not sure how I feel about that. I carry Magsafes sometimes in my CW9, but a lot of people think they are junk--Martin Fackler being the most influential proponent of this view.

 

[gofastman]

This is interesting:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2449.htm

This 147 gr. Golden Saber was fired from a Rohrbaugh, yet it expanded pretty well from such a short barrel.

I was under the impression that the heaver loads were better for short barrels, the data here seems to back that up.
Can anyone speak to this?

 

[shibby]

Lol @ saying "science," then "fact"

facepalm

 

[Vanzpp]

I was under the impression that the heaver loads were better for short barrels, the data here seems to back that up.
Can anyone speak to this?

That depends on who you ask!

Chuck Taylor wrote an article in "Combat Handguns" recently on 9mm ammo for short barrel autos. He unequivocally rules out 147 gr. loads because, according to him, they shoot high and don't have enough velocity from a 3.5 inch ( or shorter) barrel to expand reliably. He speaks highly of the 100 gr. Pow'R Ball load and various other 115 grain loads.

I don't necessarily agree with this perspective. It's simply one of many.

 

[gofastman]

That depends on who you ask!

Chuck Taylor wrote an article in "Combat Handguns" recently on 9mm ammo for short barrel autos. He unequivocally rules out 147 gr. loads because, according to him, they shoot high and don't have enough velocity from a 3.5 inch ( or shorter) barrel to expand reliably. He speaks highly of the 100 gr. Pow'R Ball load and various other 115 grain loads.

I don't necessarily agree with this perspective. It's simply one of many.

Hmmm, well I figure if the bullet in brassfetchers test was moving at 880 fps,
then a Doubletap 147g load should be going a bit faster out of my 3.1" barrel and allow for good penetration and expansion, plus I was under the impression that gold dots are less velocity sensitive than the sabers anyhow - (just thinking out loud)

 

[inSight-NEO]

I generally prefer "standard pressure" loads for all of my handguns, for various reasons. This includes defensive loads. Nothing against "+P" loads, I simply have never felt an overwhelming personal need to use such ammo.

Therefore, if I choose to use a 9mm for defensive purposes, I opt to use Federal 115 grain JHP (9BP). The only downside is that this particular load is somewhat difficult to find these days.

 

[GRIZ22]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRIZ22
If you want a +P 9mm you should have bought a 357 SIG.

how do you figure?


If you feel you need that extra velocity pick a round that delivers it at standard pressures instead of trying to turn a more modest round into a rhino roller.

 

[gofastman]

If you feel you need that extra velocity pick a round that delivers it at standard pressures instead of trying to turn a more modest round into a rhino roller.

what about pistols that have short barrels, the extra pressure sure could help there, right?

 

[GRIZ22]

what about pistols that have short barrels, the extra pressure sure could help there, right?
__________________


The gain going to a +P to a +P+ is even less due to the short barrel. I don't see any benefit to going to a higher pressure round to gain 50-100 fps in a shorter barrel. You can find variances like that going from one gun to another of the same model with standard pressure loads. I do use +P and +P+ in 357 revolvers as they still produce less pressure than magnums. Semi autos is another story. I think the engineers who designed the pistol know more about what pressures the ammo should operate the gun at than I. This is usually a much narrower range with semi autos. Sure, the built in safety strength will ensure the gun will not come apart with +P or +P+ but you will accelerate wear.

There are those who advocate +P or +P+ along with things like spring swaps on a 1911. Remember that 25% stronger spring also slams that slide forward with 25% more force which was not designed into the gun. I guess they know more about the gun design than John Moses Browning.

 

[Mightee1]

Personally, I recently acquired my first 9mm handgun. For self defense loads, I bought a few boxes of 124 grain Remington Golden Sabers. I chose them because they were the cheapest of the quality HD loads (still not cheap at $30 for 25 rounds). The first box and a half cycled flawlessly in my SIG, the rest went to filling two magazines.

IMO, any bad guy who is getting shot is not going to care if the high end loads penetrate an extra half inch or expand and extra 1/16th of an inch. That is why I am a proponent of shot placement and hitting what you are aiming at.

Anyways, just pick one brand / load you believe in and pray to God that you will never ever have to use them.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I stay away from +P in 9mm. If you want a +P 9mm you should have bought a 357 SIG.

I don't think it can be generalized like that. Remember that not all +P is created equal. Nowadays, a lot of companies are lawyer-proofing themselves by dulling down factory ammo. With some brands, you have to get +P just to get on par with what the load is supposed to be. Heck, a lot of 9mm+P is loaded much weaker than 9mm NATO loadings. The key is to look at the pressure and velocity of a particular load... the +P part doesn't really tell you much.