9mm load development - Part 2

[Things That Go Bang]

Thanks all who supported my original post https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-load-development.910108/#post-12401676.

Using much of your advice I returned to the range and chronographed and shot for accuracy. Here’s a photo of the target. Start at the very bottom, that’s just some 115 grain factory ammo for a control group.Please assess the six remaining targets, top to bottom. Numbers next to each target indicate the charge weight grains, labradar series number, muzzle velocity, and standard deviation.

I think the 5.4 charge produced the best group and SD; seems a no brainer to me. However, 5.3 grain is supposed to be the maximum charge, producing 1150 FPS, yet I’m still shy of maximum velocity.

Am I okay to lock in on 5.4 as my load and get the dust off the press (photo of my “ballistics laboratory” attached too)? What am I missing?

Reloading manual data photo included too.

CFE Pistol
124 grain X-Treme CPRN
1.150 OAL
.002 crimp
Dillon XL750
Redding NxGEN dies
CCI MAGNUM small pistol primer
85 degree temperature, calm
Bag rest
Glock 19 Gen 5
20 yard target
7 round groups
No pressure signs at primers
Brass tumbled in walnut media with nu-finish
Hornady case lube
Once shot random range brass

 

[LiveLife]

Nice set up.

X-Treme CPRN ... CFE Pistol ... 1.150" OAL ... Magnum SP primer ... .002" crimp

Once again, welcome to THR.

This is what I outlined in your first thread:

1. Determine Max OAL/COL using the barrel
2. Determine longest Working OAL that will reliably feed/chamber from the magazine
3. Reference all available load data to identify start/max charges for powder work up in .2-.3 gr increments
4. If Working OAL is significantly shorter than published, reduce start/max charges by .2-.3 gr
5. Identify lowest powder charge that will reliably cycle the slide and produce accuracy (This could be target load)
6. If start charge reliably cycles the slide and produce accuracy, consider powder "work down" to identify lighter target load
7. Monitor accuracy trend to identify most accurate load confirmed by subsequent range trips
8. If "most accurate" load is not at max charge, consider incrementally reducing OAL (Say by .005") to see if accuracy improves. If yes, use shorter OAL. If no, use longer OAL

Since you are loading for multiple pistols, use the shortest OAL and powder charge that will work in all the pistols.

Now that you have conducted initial powder work up, consider these:

• You are using X-Treme plated bullet and referencing jacketed load data. Generally, for regular thickness plated bullets, lead load data or plated load data should be used (For thicker plated bullets like Speer Gold Dot/TMJ, jacketed load data can be used)
• This is what X-Treme recommends - https://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

"Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities."​

• Since SP Magnum primer is used instead of regular SP primer, consider backing off some powder charge when approaching near max/max load data
• X-Treme verified their plated bullets have soft lead core and prone to bullet deformation from too much taper crimp. This is what they recommend - https://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

"We recommend ... using only a light taper crimp"​

• .002" crimp translates to .355" + .022" (Average of .011" case wall thickness times 2) - .002" = .375" taper crimp at case mouth. For regular plated bullet sized .355", .377" taper crimp should be used (essentially returning flare back flat on bullet and skosh more) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ng-at-25-50-yards.808446/page-3#post-10470195
• For 124 gr RN bullet, shorter 1.135" OAL can produce smaller groups than longer 1.150" OAL due to increased neck tension from deeper seated bullet base
• If neck tension/bullet setback test was not done, consider checking bullet setback with 1.150" and 1.135" OAL rounds (My guess is deeper seated 1.135" OAL rounds will produce less bullet setback which translates to more consistent "chambered" OAL and more consistent muzzle velocities/SD numbers)
• And if you are experiencing significant bullet setback issue with mixed range brass, consider sorting and using thicker wall brass - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

And here are lead and plated load data from Hodgdon (Since 9mm bullet can vary by 1 grain, I interchange 124/125 gr load data): https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

• 9mm 125 gr Lead Cone Nose CFE Pistol COL 1.125" Start 4.4 gr (1,041 fps) - Max 5.0 gr (1,156 fps)
• 9mm 124 gr Berry's HBRN (Thick Plated) CFE Pistol COL 1.150" Start 4.9 gr (1,006 fps) - Max 5.5 gr (1,120 fps)

And here's Speer load data for TMJ (Total Metal Jacket, thick plated round nose) - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__124_rev1.pdf

• 9mm 124 gr Speer TMJ CFE Pistol OAL 1.135" Start 4.7 gr (1024 fps) - Max 5.3 gr (1127 fps)

So, consider referencing lead/plated load data and using shorter 1.135" OAL for your second powder work up (For greater accuracy) with .377" taper crimp and see which powder charge produces smaller group. (FYI, 124 gr bullet at 1.135" OAL should produce around 130-135 power factor with 4.8 - 5.0 gr CFE Pistol powder charge)

115 grain factory ammo for a control group ... Please assess the six remaining targets ... 20 yard

I think I am seeing shooter induced input on trigger/grip and causing left of POA and high/low flyers - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11245640

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11245649

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11249077

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-4#post-11320782

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I think I am seeing shooter induced input on trigger/grip and causing left of POA and high/low flyers

My first thought also.

 

[N555]

My first thought also.

Aye.
I think you have reached the point where you know where the "good range" for the powder charge is. Just need to do something about that trigger and your group will be one big hole.

 

[Otto]

If your goal is accuracy, I would ditch the plated bullets and save them for plinking.

 

[GooseGestapo]

If you understand how Hornady determines max loads, you’ll realize they leave a bit on the table, velocity and performance wise. You prove this in spades.
My experence is that the 9x19 gets its best accuracy at or just below maximum loads.
The 5.4gr load would be my load!

 

[fxvr5]

If you understand how Hornady determines max loads, you’ll realize they leave a bit on the table, velocity and performance wise. You prove this in spades.
My experence is that the 9x19 gets its best accuracy at or just below maximum loads.
The 5.4gr load would be my load!

How does Hornady determine max loads? How much do they leave on the table? You must have specific numbers to claim this. From whom did you get them? Hornady?

 

[Things That Go Bang]

If your goal is accuracy, I would ditch the plated bullets and save them for plinking.

Good point. It’s not really accuracy. It’s for plinking, and a full-auto 9mm PCC that’s very hungry.

 

[LiveLife]

If your goal is accuracy, I would ditch the plated bullets and save them for plinking.

Good point. It’s not really accuracy. It’s for plinking, and a full-auto 9mm PCC that’s very hungry.

9mm/PCC is plinking fun.

While I would agree jacketed bullets can produce greater accuracy over plated bullets, plated bullets can produce good to pretty good accuracy.

When I shot USPSA, I used Montana Gold FMJ/JHP but practiced with Berry's plated bullets to save on cost.

Here's Berry's regular plated 124 gr RN and Titegroup producing 2" 25 yard group - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10938615

And RMR thick plated 124 gr RN and WST/BE-86 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ts-and-discussions.778197/page-6#post-9924922

And RMR thick plated 40S&W 180 gr RNFP and BE-86 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9646469

 

[GooseGestapo]

How does Hornady determine max loads? How much do they leave on the table? You must have specific numbers to claim this. From whom did you get them? Hornady?

Hornady lists loads to the nearest 100 or 50fps in some instances, not to actual maximum loads. For example, if a load at 5.x grains runs 1,348fps, it will be listed at the calculated 1,300fps level which will be perhaps 4.x grains.

This explains why their data appears a bit “tame” compared to other sources.
For example:
Hornady 115gr JHP
Hornady lists 4.7gr of #231 as maximum at 1,100fps (#8 pg 898)
Nosler lists 5.0 for 1,130fps. (#8.pg 731)
Lee #2 5.1 at 1,167fps (#2 pg 532, HP38)
I’ve used 5.0gr for 3 decades. It’s also what Precision Delta used in the 90’s up to around 2004 in their 9mm 115gr match ammo.

Hornady explains it in their text prior to the load tables. You know, that part of the manual nobody ever reads...

 

[fxvr5]

Hornady explains it in their text prior to the load tables. You know, that part of the manual nobody ever reads...

Please be so kind as to quote what Hornady says, or give us a page number in their Volume 11 handbook, so we don't have to search the hundred or so pages to find this.

Thank you.

 

[rfwobbly]

You have a very handsome setup, and I see you have added the Dillon Roller Handle. If this option is to alleviate muscle strain, then you should know that while your bench is very nice looking it is not very efficient from an upper arm energy transfer standpoint. And that will contribute to excess muscle/ shoulder pain. Pain that you don't need or want.

If you'll watch your bench during reloading, you will probably see it flex downward during the op handle down-stroke. The energy to bend the workbench downward is coming from your arm. Of course you expect to use energy to reload; that was the plan. However, EXTRA energy is being required to flex the bench top. That EXTRA energy is completely WASTED, because its only purpose is to distort the benchtop.

The forces generated by the op handle down-stroke are straight down. The most efficient way to eliminate downward movement is to add a table leg directly under the 750 to effectively push straight up. The only requirement is that the support be of dimensions and material sufficient enough not to deflect under the pressure of reloading. Eliminate the benchtop bending and you eliminate the additional energy requirement. Eliminate the additional energy requirement and you conserve your energy and save your shoulder.

Hope this helps.

 

[DMW1116]

I can't speak for you, but for me it was a good idea to re-evaluate my "most accurate" pistol loads after about a year of regularly shooting pistol. Some held up, but some didn't. I mentioned in the other thread I didn't like CFE Pistol at first. Then went back and made some more comparisons after shooting my 9mms regularly for about a year. CFE-Pistol now ties or is more accurate than the others (W231 and HS-6) with the chosen 147 grain XTP bullet and they're all about the same with a Berry's 115 grain plated bullet.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

9mm/PCC is plinking fun.

While I would agree jacketed bullets can produce greater accuracy over plated bullets, plated bullets can produce good to pretty good accuracy.

Just went to xtreme website.
2k plated bullets is 250 bucks shipped

2k worth of precision delta is 210.

 

[LiveLife]

Just went to xtreme website.
2k plated bullets is 250 bucks shipped

2k worth of precision delta is 210.

And RMR 124 gr FMJ is $202/2000 and free shipping ($191.90/2000 with 5% THR discount) - https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets/pistol/9mm-355/9mm-124-gr-rmr-full-metal-jacket-round-nose/

And RMR "in-house" jacketed bullets are what ELEY uses for their "match" ammunition - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...or-their-new-line-of-match-ammunition.854750/

 

[ParallelCode]

And RMR 124 gr FMJ is $202/2000 and free shipping ($191.90/2000 with 5% THR discount) - https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets/pistol/9mm-355/9mm-124-gr-rmr-full-metal-jacket-round-nose/

And RMR "in-house" jacketed bullets are what ELEY uses for their "match" ammunition - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...or-their-new-line-of-match-ammunition.854750/

I'm a big fan of their 115gr FMJ. It's hard to go wrong with RMR.

 

[LiveLife]

I'm a big fan of their 115gr FMJ. It's hard to go wrong with RMR.

And right now, you can get 115 gr FMJ "seconds" for $169.10/2000 ($84.55/1000) and free shipping with 5%THR discount code - https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bul...gr-rmr-full-metal-jacket-seconds-bullets-new/

That's cheaper than most plated, coated lead and even lubed lead bullets factoring shipping charges for "ELEY" match grade jacketed bullets.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

Yep, and why do people still buy plated?
The berry bullets I've used don't hold a candle to PD bullets.

Even stopped buying coated 9mm. Cheaper, easier to load, easier to clean.

 

[rfwobbly]

After doing a lot of load testing over the years with multiple 9mm pistols for my "home forum", this is what I can tell you...
• CFE Pistol may have many good uses, but IMHO superb target accuracy is not one of them. While I fully understand, that's what's currently available, maybe it's in stores exactly because no one wants it ? I have a can that's been used for tests in 9mm and 10mm and it's been sitting ever since. Swing on by and I'll give it to you.

• When you go to do an accuracy test such as yours, several factors are critical in building accurate test ammo. Amount of powder, minimal variation in OAL, and using one brand of brass are important, highly desirable characteristics. (Some high volume makers like Winchester have cases marked "WIN" and others marked "Win". I won't even use those.)

• Your velocity numbers will never match those published in the load manual for many reasons, but the main one is that pistol "test barrels" are much longer. This allows a much higher velocity to develop. A typical handgun test gun looks like this...




Hope this helps.
.

 

[GooseGestapo]

After doing a lot of load testing over the years with multiple 9mm pistols for my "home forum", this is what I can tell you...
• CFE Pistol may have many good uses, but IMHO superb target accuracy is not one of them. While I fully understand, that's what's currently available, maybe it's in stores exactly because no one wants it ? I have a can that's been used for tests in 9mm and 10mm and it's been sitting ever since. Swing on by and I'll give it to you.

• When you go to do an accuracy test such as yours, several factors are critical in building accurate test ammo. Amount of powder, minimal variation in OAL, and using one brand of brass are important, highly desirable characteristics. (Some high volume makers like Winchester have cases marked "WIN" and others marked "Win". I won't even use those.)

• Your velocity numbers will never match those published in the load manual for many reasons, but the main one is that pistol "test barrels" are much longer. This allows a much higher velocity to develop. A typical handgun test gun looks like this...

View attachment 1103000


Hope this helps.
.

Except when they specify a make and model of firearm used.
Hornady #8 used a S&W Model 39 w/4”bbl, 1/10” twist. (2010 edition).

 

[rfwobbly]

Except when they specify a make and model of firearm used.
Hornady #8 used a S&W Model 39 w/4”bbl, 1/10” twist. (2010 edition).

Please tell me how you get chamber pressure readings from an automatic pistol ?

Sir, I assure you a "test gun" was used in the mix somewhere.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Please be so kind as to quote what Hornady says, or give us a page number in their Volume 11 handbook, so we don't have to search the hundred or so pages to find this.

Thank you.

I don’t have 11th edition, so I can’t say...
Just look at how the data is formatted. And compare to other sources.

 

[DMW1116]

My accuracy standards aren’t terribly high for 9mm any more. Even if my powder choices are better, my guns aren’t, though my Canik Mete is trying really hard.

Just got a 500 box of RMR Heavy Match Winners. I guess I’ll see what all the fuss is about. My 9s seem to prefer slower/heavier projectiles. I’m sticking to cast for my 357 Blackhawk for now. Those tear drop and smiley .357 FMJ are tempting though.

 

[fxvr5]

The Universal Receiver apparatus, like wobbly showed, is used for pressure tests. Some companies, like Hornady, work up their loads in the Universal Receiver, then shoot the ammo in a real gun for the velocity they show in their manuals. See the references in the following post.

 

[fxvr5]

I don’t have 11th edition, so I can’t say...
Just look at how the data is formatted. And compare to other sources.

Guy Neill, who worked up loads for Hornady and Speer, has said that the loads are run up to the maximum SAAMI pressure limit.
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/41041-44-magnum-they-cant-all-be-right/
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/302740-book-max-seems-low-for-n320-plated-124gn-9mm/