Lone_Gunman
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Actually its an old wive's tale that it is an old wive's tale.
9mm vs. .45 sidearms
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Actually its an old wive's tale that it is an old wive's tale.
Penforhire
Member
This topic will never go away until the gun rag writers do a better job explaining how shot placement trumps caliber every time. And next on the list is bullet performance (penetration with expansion). And then caliber is a distant third...
FWIW, I think MILITARY use of hand guns is best served with higher capacity (carrying ability and magazines), therefore I'd vote 9 mm over .45. As pointed out earlier, you're screwed against long guns anyway. Would make the most sense if a common ammo could be used in both handguns and rifles.
FWIW, I think MILITARY use of hand guns is best served with higher capacity (carrying ability and magazines), therefore I'd vote 9 mm over .45. As pointed out earlier, you're screwed against long guns anyway. Would make the most sense if a common ammo could be used in both handguns and rifles.
I agree that placement, performance and then caliber is the correct order of importance.
But if that is the case, then why do MEU SOC, Delta, HRT, etc., etc.. choose .45 ACP platform over a 9MM or .40 or .32. They seem to be all about shot placement and if anyone was in a situation where a hi-cap was needed - it would be them.
Granted you can be just as dead from a head shot with a 9mm and a long gun will be even better but it seems some of the guys, who are at the top of their game, are choosing 8 round .45's over hi-cap 9's. I would like to think it isn't hype or bravado as their own and other's lives depend upon the decisions they make whether it is tactics or caliber selection.
I started out using .9mms. I've heard too many stories from police, etc though about how people kept coming at them after being shot with 9s and how .45s would knock them down even if they were only wounded, so I changed to .45s and .40s. Most law enforcement/self defense guys I've talked to say the 9mm is now the minimum they would use.
People jacked up on crack, for example, seem to not even notice being shot by 9s. That can happen with any round of course, but I've heard more about .40s and .45s stopping criminals with fewer shots than 9mms.
People jacked up on crack, for example, seem to not even notice being shot by 9s. That can happen with any round of course, but I've heard more about .40s and .45s stopping criminals with fewer shots than 9mms.
ducktapehero
Member
I like the 45, in FMJ I think the 45 is a much superior stopper than the 9mm. Although with modern loads the difference between the 2 shrinks dramatically. Just my opinion of course.
TheLastBoyScout
Member
I prefer 9mm.
I've shot a 1911 and Glock 36 in .45, and could hit with them, but the only pistol I can reliably shoot with "minute-of-braincase" accuracy at speed is my '92.
The GI 1911 was decent, but for its horrendous sights. If it had a decent set it would go a long way to evening it out with the Beretta (but there's still the fact that the Beretta holds 2x as many rounds...)
Going to a .40 cal would be the least likely course of action. The reason we use 9mm is cause its NATO standard. If we ever were to go off NATO standard to get something with more stopping power, there would be no reason not to go back up to a .45.
I've shot a 1911 and Glock 36 in .45, and could hit with them, but the only pistol I can reliably shoot with "minute-of-braincase" accuracy at speed is my '92.
The GI 1911 was decent, but for its horrendous sights. If it had a decent set it would go a long way to evening it out with the Beretta (but there's still the fact that the Beretta holds 2x as many rounds...)
Going to a .40 cal would be the least likely course of action. The reason we use 9mm is cause its NATO standard. If we ever were to go off NATO standard to get something with more stopping power, there would be no reason not to go back up to a .45.
Harold Mayo
Member
I try not to base my firearms choices on what professional police and military guys "choose" because it's simply a bad thing to do.
Professional LE and military rarely actually get a choice of the firearm that they will use. Administrators do so. In the case of HRT, the administrators happened to be firearms enthusiasts who liked .45 ACP 1911s. Read the specs that they actually wrote up for the HRT guns and you'll see that they read like they ripped a page out of a gun-rag.
HRT used to use Browning hi-powers. SEAL teams are issued 9mm Sigs. Israeli SF used to use BHPs and now use 9mm Sigs.
Other than in the US, you really won't find ANYONE using anything but 9mm. People need to get off their high horses when it comes to caliber wars. Americans see very little use of handgun calibers in any situation compared to the rest of the world. 9mm is all you need. Why do you think H&K flat-out REFUSED to make a .45 ACP MP5, even though it was requested by US LE and military?
:banghead:
45Badger
Member
bigger holes!
bradvanhorn
Member
Harold got it right!
First, handguns for "operators", regardless of affiliation, are almost universally a last resort; long guns (your primary) rule. No one wants to use their secondary weapon, but in the extreme you want the piece of mind that you have one.
Second, "operators" get a lot more training/trigger time with primary and secondary weapons (or they dang well should!), so if they want a handgun that gives them more wood by making a bigger hole, then they can go for it.
Personally I am willing to entrust my life with the Beretta (since that's what the Corps gives me as a secondary) and the 9mm (which is what I personally use anyway). The 9mm is easy to shoot, gives you plenty of ammo, and stopping power is a myth. Make two holes in a sheet of paper, one .355, the other .45, then hold that up to your chest. Do you think it'll really make that big a difference? It certainly could, but .1 isn't worth the trade offs in my opinion.
Also, stories like, "I shot him 50 times in the chest with my 9 mil and he kept coming," versus, "I shot him in the left pinky finger with my 45 and he flew 50 ft across the parking lot," are b.s. They make for great stories, so have a beer and talk trash about "wimpy" handgun rounds; when you sober up come back to reality. Reality is this: all handgun rounds are weak, and the differences between the common fighting calibers (9/40/45) are practically speaking irrelevent.
That said, shoot what makes you happy; nothing else will do!
First, handguns for "operators", regardless of affiliation, are almost universally a last resort; long guns (your primary) rule. No one wants to use their secondary weapon, but in the extreme you want the piece of mind that you have one.
Second, "operators" get a lot more training/trigger time with primary and secondary weapons (or they dang well should!), so if they want a handgun that gives them more wood by making a bigger hole, then they can go for it.
Personally I am willing to entrust my life with the Beretta (since that's what the Corps gives me as a secondary) and the 9mm (which is what I personally use anyway). The 9mm is easy to shoot, gives you plenty of ammo, and stopping power is a myth. Make two holes in a sheet of paper, one .355, the other .45, then hold that up to your chest. Do you think it'll really make that big a difference? It certainly could, but .1 isn't worth the trade offs in my opinion.
Also, stories like, "I shot him 50 times in the chest with my 9 mil and he kept coming," versus, "I shot him in the left pinky finger with my 45 and he flew 50 ft across the parking lot," are b.s. They make for great stories, so have a beer and talk trash about "wimpy" handgun rounds; when you sober up come back to reality. Reality is this: all handgun rounds are weak, and the differences between the common fighting calibers (9/40/45) are practically speaking irrelevent.
That said, shoot what makes you happy; nothing else will do!
I believe it comes down to getting your hits and practicing. I can simply afford to shoot more with my 9mm gun then a .45acp gun of choice. Any modern weapons platform these days will do more then enough to score your hits so choose what you will be able to practice with.
Hey, if you can afford spending more to get profiecent with .45 and spending more the time learning to reload those mags quicker, then more opower to ya! .45 it is!
But like someone else said on this thread, the difference between a .355 (9mm) and a .45acp bullet is not that big of a difference to worry over. And one more thing, most of the discussion over this caliber debate is over one shot stops. Well i heard this from some SWAT dude i talked to once and i'll never forget it... "If he's worth shooting once, he's worth shooting twice"
That pretty much ends the caliber debate right there.
-Pylon
Hey, if you can afford spending more to get profiecent with .45 and spending more the time learning to reload those mags quicker, then more opower to ya! .45 it is!
But like someone else said on this thread, the difference between a .355 (9mm) and a .45acp bullet is not that big of a difference to worry over. And one more thing, most of the discussion over this caliber debate is over one shot stops. Well i heard this from some SWAT dude i talked to once and i'll never forget it... "If he's worth shooting once, he's worth shooting twice"
That pretty much ends the caliber debate right there.
-Pylon
.45 vs 9MM
If I knew I were going to a gunfight , and there was no way out of it , I would grab my 5" Burns Custom Colt 1911 . After I finished wiping and cleaning up I mean
.
At any other time I would feel comfortable with any of the following I could carry :
Kimber Custom CDP .45
Kimber Ultra CDP .45
Les Baer Concept VII .45
H&K USP Compact .45
Browning Hi Power 9MM
H&K P7M8 9MM
Kahr PM9 9MM
Glock 26 9MM
Walther P-38 9MM
Kel Tec P11 9MM
S&W Model 19 .357
S&W Model 442 .38 +P
Any of the above loaded with the appropriate hollow point ammo that functions reliably in the weapon will suffice for self defense IMHO ....Tom
If I knew I were going to a gunfight , and there was no way out of it , I would grab my 5" Burns Custom Colt 1911 . After I finished wiping and cleaning up I mean
.At any other time I would feel comfortable with any of the following I could carry :
Kimber Custom CDP .45
Kimber Ultra CDP .45
Les Baer Concept VII .45
H&K USP Compact .45
Browning Hi Power 9MM
H&K P7M8 9MM
Kahr PM9 9MM
Glock 26 9MM
Walther P-38 9MM
Kel Tec P11 9MM
S&W Model 19 .357
S&W Model 442 .38 +P
Any of the above loaded with the appropriate hollow point ammo that functions reliably in the weapon will suffice for self defense IMHO ....Tom
The_Shootist
Member
Penforhire
Member
The question about why Operators chose .45 is answered, to me, first by the trigger. The 1911 SA trigger is sweet, no doubt about it. There may be some 9's available with similar triggers but you have a big selection in .45.
1911 reliability is probably a good 2nd reason.
I'm still thinking caliber is not the top reason,.
1911 reliability is probably a good 2nd reason.
I'm still thinking caliber is not the top reason,.
IndridCold
Member
9mm v.s. 45
Hmmm, taste great or less filling? Pretty much the same argument. What works for one, doesn't work for all. That being said I'd NEVER EVER go with a 9mm over a .45 even though the Beretta 92 carries roughly twice the capacity as the old 1911s. The military for some odd reason felt the need to change the caliber and make of a handgun that served damn well for some 80 odd years, and I dont know why. Everyone I know that was in one branch of service that was around when the change took place loathed the Berettas.
I think a good compromise could be, and I can't believe anyone has said it yet, the .357 sig. Trust me I'm not much of a fan of the new wildcat round, but if the military has to have it's 9mm cartridge, what better to drive it than a shell casing of a .40. Much more thump than a standard nine, and they wouldn't be surrendering much in capacity, maybe two or three rounds. If memory serves, the Federal air Marshalls almost exclusivley carry Sig 229s chambered in .357 sig.
Hmmm, taste great or less filling? Pretty much the same argument. What works for one, doesn't work for all. That being said I'd NEVER EVER go with a 9mm over a .45 even though the Beretta 92 carries roughly twice the capacity as the old 1911s. The military for some odd reason felt the need to change the caliber and make of a handgun that served damn well for some 80 odd years, and I dont know why. Everyone I know that was in one branch of service that was around when the change took place loathed the Berettas.
I think a good compromise could be, and I can't believe anyone has said it yet, the .357 sig. Trust me I'm not much of a fan of the new wildcat round, but if the military has to have it's 9mm cartridge, what better to drive it than a shell casing of a .40. Much more thump than a standard nine, and they wouldn't be surrendering much in capacity, maybe two or three rounds. If memory serves, the Federal air Marshalls almost exclusivley carry Sig 229s chambered in .357 sig.
Model520Fan
Member
Depends on what the enemy is wearing. Clearly the best commercially available military round is the .30 Mauser, which also has the advantage of being chambered in the "awkward Mauser Broomhandle," (snicker, snicker). Cross-sectional area is low, aiding penetration, but shot placement is aided by the fact that a near miss will not spin the malefactor around and drop him on the ground, making it harder to see the optimum point of aim.
Remember, the three most important factors in choosing a handgun cartridge are shot placement, shot placement, and, you guessed it, shot placement.
Get serious? Not a chance.
Remember, the three most important factors in choosing a handgun cartridge are shot placement, shot placement, and, you guessed it, shot placement.
Get serious? Not a chance.
"I was wondering which round you guys think is more useful in most situations."
"More useful in most situations" implies a quest for versatility. The most versatile autoloading cartridge extant is the 10mm AUTO.
With the 10mm AUTO, you get a round that approximates the speed of the 9-minimeter with the historic "knock-down thump" of the .45acp. Plus, the 10mm brings to the table higher sectional density than the .45 for better penetration against intermediate barriers. In most pistols of equivalent size, the 10mm also has a higher mag capacity than the .45 (if that's an issue).
When you're finally serious about stopping power, you're ready for the 10mm AUTO.
"More useful in most situations" implies a quest for versatility. The most versatile autoloading cartridge extant is the 10mm AUTO.
With the 10mm AUTO, you get a round that approximates the speed of the 9-minimeter with the historic "knock-down thump" of the .45acp. Plus, the 10mm brings to the table higher sectional density than the .45 for better penetration against intermediate barriers. In most pistols of equivalent size, the 10mm also has a higher mag capacity than the .45 (if that's an issue).
When you're finally serious about stopping power, you're ready for the 10mm AUTO.
Moparmike
Member
Nothing like the continuation of the beating of deceased equines.
Someone should at least secure the horse to his perch, otherwise he could bust through the doors and voooom! Off he goes!
Someone should at least secure the horse to his perch, otherwise he could bust through the doors and voooom! Off he goes!
horge
Member
My head.
Make it stop.
Please make the hurting stop.
Make it stop.
Please make the hurting stop.
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