A bit of an "encounter" this evening... (long)

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He was in a bar surrounded by the *****'s friends. Sucks, but he would've lost that one unless he was Bruce Lee and most of us aren't. I bounced for years in some rough bars and things don't work out in real life like they do in the dojo.
Fight the battles you can win.
Biker
 
If some drunk and a few of his buddies are threatning me I have no problem pulling a gun thats what its there for.

It isn't there to wave around for no reason, but it is there to protect yourself just like any other way you would learn to protect yourself. You just happen to have choosen a gun and a gun is a lot more effective agianst a large group then martial arts.
 
C'mon guys, all he had to do was

A: talk to the bar manager (he did)
B: call the cops (didn't)
C: get the car towed.

No guns, no confrontations...go back to bed. See, this is why I don't drink. People make asses of themselves.
 
Lupinus said:
I have no problem pulling a gun thats what its there for.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't have a concealed carry permit.



Rezin,
You're in a tough spot there friend. The obvious thing would've been to call the cops. However, since the bar is owned by the landlord of not only your apartment but also your business, you're smack between the proverbial rock and hard place. No telling what the law would have found had they gone into the bar (out of you LL's control but still his problem). Have you thought about finding a quieter place to live/set up shop?
 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't have a concealed carry permit.
No I don't I'm not 21 yet.

But do try reading right below that-

It isn't there to wave around for no reason, but it is there to protect yourself just like any other way you would learn to protect yourself.

Do try to take the entire thing in context rather then a part of it.
 
Lupinus said:
Do try to take the entire thing in context rather then a part of it.

I read the whole thing. Are you saying that (if you had a gun) you would have gone in to that bar and pulled your gun when the guy got into your face?
 
if the guy looked like he was about to start whaling at me or threatened me absoloutly, esspecialy when he has a bunch of buddies with them.

NOT there to wave around. In other words not to be puleld out because he makes a smart comment. But if he looks like he is about to try and kick my ass that gun will come out thats what its there for. Or would you prefer to leave your gun holstered and get into a fight with him and some of his closest friends? The gun is there for protection so if you arn't going to use it to defend yourself there is no point in carrying it. Drunk rushs moves at me like he is going to do something your damn right Id pull the gun and point it right at his head.
 
Lupinus said:
Or would you prefer to leave your gun holstered and get into a fight with him and some of his closest friends? The gun is there for protection so if you arn't going to use it to defend yourself there is no point in carrying it. Drunk rushs moves at me like he is going to do something your damn right Id pull the gun and point it right at his head.

In this case I wouldn't pull it because I wouldn't have been in there, or if I did go into the bar, I would have gone in unarmed (as Rezin did).

OK, there's a belligerent drunk hanging with some of his buddies. If you pull a gun on him, what do you think is going to happen? Will he back down (and look bad in front of his "friends)? Doubtful. I've had enough experience with belligerent drunks like this to know that they seldom back down when alone; and never back down if it means looking bad in front of their buddies. If you go to bars when you're old enough, you'll see the dynamic I'm referring to. The short answer is that you would have had to shoot him.

Your prosecution would then go something like this:

1. The shooter had a verbal confrontation with the victim.
2. Rather than calling the police, the shooter went home and got a loaded gun.
3. The shooter followed the victim into a bar.
4. The shooter had another confrontation with the victim and shot him.

You would end up in prison.

For a similar situation and result, read this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=162338&page=2&highlight=windshield+wipers

or this one:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=162917&highlight=bar+exam

I agree that a CCW is there for protection, and when you need it you should use it. However, if you get your gun and follow a drunk into a bar to continue an argument, or do something really stupid like pull it on a homeless person asking for change, you will at best lose your CCW permit, or in the worst case end up in prison.

Speaking for myself (and I've seen similar sentiments posted elewhere on this forum) that when I'm carrying, I'm way more likely to retreat or avoid putting myself in situations like this because escalation is likely, and escalation is likely to lead to gunplay. A responsible CCW holder will do all he can to avoid it.
 
He didn't go into the bar to confront the guy he went into the bar to talk to the owner of the bar. As I have said it wouldn't be pulled out for no reason it WOULD be pulled out when it appeared the guy was about to attack me.

And this-

I've had enough experience with belligerent drunks like this to know that they seldom back down when alone; and never back down if it means looking bad in front of their buddies. If you go to bars when you're old enough, you'll see the dynamic I'm referring to. The short answer is that you would have had to shoot him.
This I really hate, the your young or when you know stuff. I have interacted with drunks plenty thanks. My uncle is a alcoholic and is violent after he has a few drinks in him. I have had enough encounters and fights with a violently drunk person to know just fine. I have also been in enough bars and rather dislike them.

Agian, it would NOT be puleld till the guy made it pretty apparent he was about to wail on me. And I don't care if you are drunk or not I will pull a gun on you before I let you and some of your buddies beat the hell out of me just because you are drunk and the sight of the gun might not be enough to make you back down. Or am I supposed to wait till he and his buddies have jumped on me to bother pulling a gun?

Would the cops have been a good option? Sure. But he didn't go in confrontign the guy he went in asking the bar owner for help.
 
He didn't go into the bar to confront the guy he went into the bar to talk to the owner of the bar.

His intention doesn't matter. His actions, and the previous and ensuing series of events do. He could've gone into the bar to sell Girl Scout cookies and it wouldn't help him.

As I have said it wouldn't be pulled out for no reason it WOULD be pulled out when it appeared the guy was about to attack me.

By then, your fate would have already been sealed. You went home and got your gun and followed the guy into the bar. According to the law, what happens after that is your fault. Read those threads. The guy that went to prison was standing in his own yard when he shot a would-be thief that approached him with a raised tire iron.
 
His intention doesn't matter. His actions, and the previous and ensuing series of events do. He could've gone into the bar to sell Girl Scout cookies and it wouldn't help him.

The law is situational and varies from State to State. In PA, I believe his intentions do in fact matter. Now, going back home to get the gun would probably hurt his case, but if he had the gun on him the whole time in the first place (as many of us would, I carry all the time, even to get the mail), his intentions of talking to the bar owner, who is also his landlord and responsible for the property and lot would count for a great deal.

If he had not approached the drunk (which in this case, he did not), and the drunk came back to him to escalate the situation by threatening and then attempting physical violence, it is very likely this would have been ruled a good shoot.

The law asks that you avoid, and refrain from escalating, it does not say you must hide in your home if you have a handgun. The bar is a public place, not someone's private home. The Shooter would have had very legitimate business being there. His past history of criminal activity would also play into this, as would his observable mental state at the time according to witnesses. Had the shooter had no criminal past, and had his state been observed to be calm and collected, the shooter would likely suffer no felony charges.

Now, being that he left the gun at home, going back to get it and then going to the bar could show him to be looking for trouble. Not enough to convict on alone, but it does create an uphill battle for your attorney.


In your fist-linked thread, this sums it up:

Peterson was the first to display a weapon and this was deemed disproportional force for stopping the henious crime of windshield wiper theft. Because Peterson introduced lethal force into the scenario before there was any justification for it, he was held responsible for escalating it.

He was charged with manslaughter. Had the shooter kept the weapon concealed until after the attacker came at him with a tire iron, I'd bet good shoot any day of the week. He brandished a weapon when his life was not in danger. This has nothing to do with our discussion here. If the OP went outside and said, "move your truck" and waved a gun, then shot the guy a few minutes later, the shooter would be going to jail, same in this case.


In the other scenario, the physical attack and threat had already begun, prior to the shooter getting their firearm. Had he had his gun on him prior to that, despite being threatened by the attacker on more than one occasion and also being assaulted, he has every right to be a patron at that bar as the attacker does and it would have likely been a good shoot. There is no duty to hide. If you can escape, you do. The shooter in this case did escape and came back AFTER the assault had taken place.

In the original post in this thread, NO assault or threat had taken place. A person has no duty to be able to predict the future acts of another person. They also have no duty to avoid a public place due to a wildly possible threat from someone that has shown no aggression towards them. The drunk showed indifference, not aggression. Again, going back to get the gun prior to going into the bar is problematic for a jury, but it does not mean a slam-dunk felony.

Just because you are armed, you have no obligation to avoid places that you may need to use your firearm; otherwise, there would be nearly no scenario that would be a justifiable act of self-defense using a firearm.

If the OP shouldn't have had his gun going into a bar because he had a reasonable fear of physical violence and should have just stayed home, then:

No one could carry a gun into a bad neighborhood at night despite having a perfectly legal and legitimate reason for being there.

No one could carry a gun in the park where mugging and rapes occur; they would have a duty to stay home if armed.

I agree we need to consider the law, but let's not get carried away. The OP should have called the police, however, had he gone into the bar for a perfectly legitimate and legal reason, he only needs to convince a jury he was in reasonable fear of his life over the assault and his intent was not to escalate. Waving a firearm around threatening them is an escalation, shooting someone who is about to attack you with some of their buddies is not.
 
Call police. Document your problem. Ask them to help you move your car. Any movement toward the bar is just plain dumb. He already indicated he was not going to move his car. Fighting him is not an option unless he carries the fight to you; not likely if you stay in the house.

They might or might nor resolve the matter but you now have a record of attempting to solve the problem the "correct" way.
 
I would pee on his door handle and go back to my movie. But that's just me.

-James
 
I'm not able to legally carry yet (will be in ~30 days tho :) ) so I wouldn't have had some of the options that you did. I'm also not a large enough guy to physically intimidate them just by my presence. I'd have to call the cops or a tow truck in that situation today.

But if I did have your options, you probably did better than I would have, given the situation. I've been lucky enough to avoid such situations most times.

It's also good that you are going back over your actions and seeing what you did right and wrong. A lesser man would not.

jmm
 
Tow strap at Home Depot $35. Look on bunghole's face when he finds his car down the road in the ditch...priceless.
 
Agreed. I would have said nothing, and either destroyed something on his vehicle or have done the nice thing and have had it towed away.

Pulling the piece would have been the worse day of your freedom loving life and perhaps the end of the same freedom.
 
Rezin,

I post on CF as "ronin308", I didn't know you posted on THR! Anyway, as others have said, I think the only mistake was leaving your gun on the table. But considering the circumstances, you did everything else right by diffusing the situation. I've changed my mindset because some people get extremely worked up over nothing. I don't want to fight for nothing but I want to go to the hospital or morgue for nothing even less.
 
I personally don't see any reason to go into the bar to try to resolve the situation. I would have called the police, explained that my vehicle was blocked in and ask if they could resolve the situation.

The responding officers would have most likely went to the scene, ran the plates to get the guys name, had dispatch call the bar and get him on the phone and then told him to move his truck or it would have to be towed. If he would have still balked they would have towed his truck, he'd have been on foot and out for towing and storage.

Why start another confrontation? Attitudes, tempers, alcohol and firearms makes a concoction that more often then not ends up tragically.

Jeff
 
I agree calling the police was a viable soloution as well but some people prefer resolving things without the police. Going to ask the owner of the bar was an equally viable choice IMO. Remember he didn't go in the bar to confront the guy he went in the bar to talk to the owner if he had gone to confront the guy that would have been a different matter entirly, he stopped himself from spacificly going to confront the guy after he walked out of the bar minus some pride.

And Ican see not want to anger your landlord when not jsut your home but your buisness and vice versa has the deed to the property of both..and I know a lot of landlords that would get mighty tweaked over calling to have his customers vehicles towed even if the customers were wrong. It unfortunate but it is true.

Both ways were equaly viable considering he didn't go to confront the guy he went to speak with the manager. If he had gone to confront the guy spacificly it would be a different story.
 
Lupinus said:
This I really hate, the your young or when you know stuff. I have interacted with drunks plenty thanks. My uncle is a alcoholic and is violent after he has a few drinks in him. I have had enough encounters and fights with a violently drunk person to know just fine. I have also been in enough bars and rather dislike them.

The difference between this, and being a bouncer is akin to a gigantic, gaping chasm. Going to a few bars, and dealing with an alcoholic relative are in no way the same thing as spending enough time in bars, as security, to observe the crowd dynamics and watch exactly what will escalate a confrontation and how it will escalate it.
 
Daniel Flory said:
Rezin,

I post on CF as "ronin308"s.

:neener:

I been lurking for ages. Didn't post too much, then I suddenly got sucked in!


On he topic at hand.....


Very interesting discussions... Now, 24 hours later, I am glad as hell I didn't have my gun. I talked to a few folks, and this dude is well known for being a bit of an ass.... It would have continued to escalate... Until who knows what....

Still feel a twinge of "wuss" lol, but all in all, things turned out OK.. Those I saw today who knew of the incident also agreed, I was the better man for walking away..

...and no, I did NOT go to the bar to aggravate the situation. I knew the owner, my landlord was most likely in there. If not, the building manager, and friend of ours was, and they, being property owner (and probably at least kenw the guy) would be able to diffuse the situation. After I was in the bar, he entered behind me, and began the physical part.
 
The difference between this, and being a bouncer is akin to a gigantic, gaping chasm. Going to a few bars, and dealing with an alcoholic relative are in no way the same thing as spending enough time in bars, as security, to observe the crowd dynamics and watch exactly what will escalate a confrontation and how it will escalate it.
Did I say I was an expert or a seasoned pro? No, I said I don't appreciat the know nothin cause your a youngin stance. I have delt with enough drunks to not be a little know nothing. I know perfectly well how easily a violent drunk will snap and use his fists. I also know how easily a drunk will grow a set of balls or do something he wouldn't do sober.

That said I don't care if you are drunk sober high or mental. If you are about to attack me I WILL respond accordingly. Being drunk gives you a little leeway to be an ???????, but if you are that drunk that you need to attack me because I am talking with the owner of the bar then that is your fault not mine. Don't care if your drunk or have a temper that is a reason not an excuse and it doesn't mean I will use less force if you and your buddies are about to do me physical harm.

Edited add on-
Agian- I do not advocate simply waving a gun around for no reason. I do advocate that you are perfectly right that if you feel threatened your hand goes near your gun and if an attack seems about to happen you pull your gun.

Is it a good thing he had no gun? Maybe if it escalated and he pulled it the guy might be dead. But on the same token if the guy and his buddies had felt the need to attack Rez could quite possibly be in the hospital instead of having made this thread and that is what it is there for.
 
Lupinus said:
Did I say I was an expert or a seasoned pro? No, I said I don't appreciat the know nothin cause your a youngin stance. I have delt with enough drunks to not be a little know nothing. I know perfectly well how easily a violent drunk will snap and use his fists. I also know how easily a drunk will grow a set of balls or do something he wouldn't do sober.

That said I don't care if you are drunk sober high or mental. If you are about to attack me I WILL respond accordingly. Being drunk gives you a little leeway to be an ???????, but if you are that drunk that you need to attack me because I am talking with the owner of the bar then that is your fault not mine. Don't care if your drunk or have a temper that is a reason not an excuse and it doesn't mean I will use less force if you and your buddies are about to do me physical harm.

Edited add on-
Agian- I do not advocate simply waving a gun around for no reason. I do advocate that you are perfectly right that if you feel threatened your hand goes near your gun and if an attack seems about to happen you pull your gun.

Is it a good thing he had no gun? Maybe if it escalated and he pulled it the guy might be dead. But on the same token if the guy and his buddies had felt the need to attack Rez could quite possibly be in the hospital instead of having made this thread and that is what it is there for.

Dude, no offense but your posts are work to read. You might have plenty of excuses why (you're dyslexic, English is your second language, you have deformed hands, your keyboard is broken, yada, yada, yada, etc). But for the love of god, would it kill you to run your posts through one of the free online spell checkers like this or better yet, install [URL="http://www.spellcheck.net/]this[/URL] plug in? It won't help the grammar, apostrophe, and capitalization thing but at least we'll be able to get through your posts without a decoder ring. You must have a high speed connection because you post about 100 times per day so please, take the time to make them readable.

Anyway. Thanks for the armchair CCW advice. So far, in the last two days, you'd've followed a guy into a bar to pull your gun on him, and would've drawn on a pathetic but persistent homeless guy because he bugged you for change a few times. You have a drunk uncle, you're young, you have a Camaro, and you don't like bars; fantastic. If you don't wise up before you get a concealed carry permit, you'll lose it and give us all a bad reputation. Smarten up.
 
Rezin said:
:neener:
Very interesting discussions... Now, 24 hours later, I am glad as hell I didn't have my gun. I talked to a few folks, and this dude is well known for being a bit of an ass.... It would have continued to escalate... Until who knows what....

Ooh, ooh, I know what would've happened... you would've had to shoot the scumbag in the face. "Wuss" factor aside, you did what you could without going to jail. Ignore the armchair gunslingers here. You went as far as you could under the circumstances.

Can you talk to your landlord "offline" and get him to help alleviate the situation? At least inform him that you'll call the cops if it happens again?

At least, with bit of notice, he can't complain too much if you drop a dime. BTW, no phone in the bar!?!?! What bar doesn't have a phone? He's at least got to have a cell phone that you can call him on and give him a heads-up. If not, tell him to spend a fraction of what you pay him in rent to get one. Geeze, it doesn't cost that much.
 
Anyway. Thanks for the armchair CCW advice.
You're more then welcome.

So far, in the last two days, you'd've followed a guy into a bar to pull your gun on him
No, I have gone into a bar to ask the manager to have his customer move his vehicle. If the guy decides to be an ass that is not my fault and as I said isn't going to get a gun pulled on him. If the guy is about to attack me then it isn't my fault but I will pull a gun on him before I let him and his friends pound on me. So try reading what I write instead of focusing on my poor grammer and not making my words out to be what you want but rather what I say.

and would've drawn on a pathetic but persistent homeless guy because he bugged you for change a few times
No, sorry wrong agian. Persistent and aggressive (getting in my face, forcing himself at me to the point I have to step back, etc.) gets a gun pulled on him or put on the ground. I said from the start in that thread to notify the manager and tell him to bug off. But if he is threatineng me a kid or a woman yes I will defend myself or others with necisary force. If calling police will do it that'll work fine. If he has a woman sandwhiched between him and a car that is not time for police. Agian. Read all of what I write and not the parts you pick out on.

You have a drunk uncle, you're young, you have a Camaro
And this has to do with.....? I have a drunk uncle? His problem not mine, I dispise drunks and deal with them as little as possible. I am young? Agian so what? Young does not equal stupid. And I have a camaro? Agian so what? I am the only guy my age to ever own a camaro? Doesn't mean I am a reckless driver.

and you don't like bars; fantastic
I rather think so yes, I see few places with as little use.

If you don't wise up before you get a concealed carry permit, you'll lose it and give us all a bad reputation.
Oh how so? By actually making use of the gun if attacked? I have said several times that pulling it is not the first thing to do and it is not to be waved around. Maybe if you tried reading my entire post instead of picking out parts to make them what you want them to be you would see that. No where did I say I would follow the drunk into the bar to confront him yet that is what you persist on...nice.
 
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