Buck Snort
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Now FMJ, THAT'S not nice!!
A first hand account. Single 9mm fmj fatality
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Buck Snort
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QUOTE: "10-15 feet is three to five yards. That's REALLY close.
I imagine you could stop most people with one shot at that range with most calibers."
Chieftain wrote: "AS a matter of fact that is not true, and never has been true. Hand guns frankly suck at stopping anyone."
Patently false. He said "most people" and that includes old folks, young children, those frail with dibilitating disease, those with a mordib fear of firearms, etc. "Most people" would drop like a rock after having been shot at 15 ft. It's the people who WOULDN'T that concern me. Among their ranks are many loaded to the gills on illicit drugs.
I imagine you could stop most people with one shot at that range with most calibers."
Chieftain wrote: "AS a matter of fact that is not true, and never has been true. Hand guns frankly suck at stopping anyone."
Patently false. He said "most people" and that includes old folks, young children, those frail with dibilitating disease, those with a mordib fear of firearms, etc. "Most people" would drop like a rock after having been shot at 15 ft. It's the people who WOULDN'T that concern me. Among their ranks are many loaded to the gills on illicit drugs.
HisSoldier
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What's that about?
sniper5
Member
Quote:
Just remember not to define entry and exit wounds as such on your dictation or nurses notes. List them as wounds or GSW only.
What's that about?
In the bizarre parallel universe of medicolegal issues, if you go to court they will look for ways to discredit your documentation. If you classify entrance and exit wounds the lawyer will ask you where you got your training as a criminologist. If you don't have any that you can document your entire chart will be dismissed as "filled with false information, speculation and inaccuracies" and and you will be discredited and your testimony considered invalid. Not a big deal if you're a witness, it means you get to go home early, but if you're a plaintiff or ,worse, a defendant it kinda sucks.
Just remember not to define entry and exit wounds as such on your dictation or nurses notes. List them as wounds or GSW only.
What's that about?
In the bizarre parallel universe of medicolegal issues, if you go to court they will look for ways to discredit your documentation. If you classify entrance and exit wounds the lawyer will ask you where you got your training as a criminologist. If you don't have any that you can document your entire chart will be dismissed as "filled with false information, speculation and inaccuracies" and and you will be discredited and your testimony considered invalid. Not a big deal if you're a witness, it means you get to go home early, but if you're a plaintiff or ,worse, a defendant it kinda sucks.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
So you are saying the paramedic should not say things for which he does not have specific knowledge as s/he may be sued at some point for statements made?
I guess technically, he can't see it was a through and through either if he can't identify and entry and exit. You just know you have wounds on opposing sides that may or may not connect to be a single incident. Could be two shots. Can't count on witnesses to know for certain how many times he was shot either.
sniper5
Member
So you are saying the paramedic should not say things for which he does not have specific knowledge as s/he may be sued at some point for statements made?
I guess technically, he can't see it was a through and through either if he can't identify and entry and exit. You just know you have wounds on opposing sides that may or may not connect to be a single incident. Could be two shots. Can't count on witnesses to know for certain how many times he was shot either.
Generally not sued for the statements made per se unless the statement is libelous, but if you have to defend against malpractice (and contrary to what some believe about good samaritan laws, first responders CAN be sued and have been, because they are providing care as their job, not as a bystander) you don't want your documentation of care to be discredited. If your documentation of care is considered false or sloppy or improper, then your care rendered will be considered likewise. That will open a whole can of worms as well. Reading charts, you can definitely tell who's gone to court and who hasn't.
Also, in the real world, I have seen even trauma surgeons and ER docs get surprised frequently when someone has 2 holes one of which looks like an entrance and one looks like an exit and reports of one shooter and only one shot fired and look at the x-ray and find 2 bullets. In one case, come to find out that 2 people had fired, everyone tunnelled on one and didn't notice the other, and one bullet had expanded by going through an object before making contact with the subject. You hear the words "maybe" and "possible" used a lot before CT studies are done even by people with lots of knowledge and experience who are pretty sure about what they are seeing.
I guess technically, he can't see it was a through and through either if he can't identify and entry and exit. You just know you have wounds on opposing sides that may or may not connect to be a single incident. Could be two shots. Can't count on witnesses to know for certain how many times he was shot either.
Generally not sued for the statements made per se unless the statement is libelous, but if you have to defend against malpractice (and contrary to what some believe about good samaritan laws, first responders CAN be sued and have been, because they are providing care as their job, not as a bystander) you don't want your documentation of care to be discredited. If your documentation of care is considered false or sloppy or improper, then your care rendered will be considered likewise. That will open a whole can of worms as well. Reading charts, you can definitely tell who's gone to court and who hasn't.
Also, in the real world, I have seen even trauma surgeons and ER docs get surprised frequently when someone has 2 holes one of which looks like an entrance and one looks like an exit and reports of one shooter and only one shot fired and look at the x-ray and find 2 bullets. In one case, come to find out that 2 people had fired, everyone tunnelled on one and didn't notice the other, and one bullet had expanded by going through an object before making contact with the subject. You hear the words "maybe" and "possible" used a lot before CT studies are done even by people with lots of knowledge and experience who are pretty sure about what they are seeing.
People drop on purpose?
Sometimes people drop instantly to the ground from CNS hits. Sometimes they are shot through the heart, and that HURTS. A shot to the solar plexus can also temporarily immobilize someone beyond any voluntary control.
But does no one consider that sometimes people may drop, even feigning death, voluntarily? Especially if that person is unarmed and has no reasonable escape or defense? It's nothing more than waving the white flag. It's saying "I give up. You win! I don't want to play anymore. I'm no longer a threat, and I don't want to get shot again." The guy with the gun wants you to act like a dead man, then why not go along with it? Make the guy with the gun happy, and maybe he won't shoot you 15+1 times.
Sometimes people drop instantly to the ground from CNS hits. Sometimes they are shot through the heart, and that HURTS. A shot to the solar plexus can also temporarily immobilize someone beyond any voluntary control.
But does no one consider that sometimes people may drop, even feigning death, voluntarily? Especially if that person is unarmed and has no reasonable escape or defense? It's nothing more than waving the white flag. It's saying "I give up. You win! I don't want to play anymore. I'm no longer a threat, and I don't want to get shot again." The guy with the gun wants you to act like a dead man, then why not go along with it? Make the guy with the gun happy, and maybe he won't shoot you 15+1 times.
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sniper5
Member
Sometimes people drop instantly to the ground from CNS hits. Sometimes they are shot through the heart, and that HURTS. A shot to the solar plexus can also temporarily immobilize someone beyond any voluntary control.
But does no one consider that sometimes people may drop, even feigning death, voluntarily? Especially if that person is unarmed and has no reasonable escape or defense? It's nothing more than waving the white flag. It's saying "I give up. You win! I don't want to play anymore. I'm no longer a threat, and I don't want to get shot again." The guy with the gun wants you to act like a dead man, then why not go along with it? Make the guy with the gun happy, and maybe he won't shoot you 15+1 times.
Actually, sometimes not voluntarily. There was a study done during WW1 wherein doctors noticed people dying from what should be survivable wounds. The belief was held, and I believe there is still evidence to that effect, that some people might literally be scared to death, believing that they are dead because their subconscious equates being shot with being killed. I don't know how all of that is explained physiologically, but it has been documented to have happened. True or not, there seems to be a link between the will to survive and survival, even with people who are not consciously aware. Some people in (and out of) the medical community swear by it.
But does no one consider that sometimes people may drop, even feigning death, voluntarily? Especially if that person is unarmed and has no reasonable escape or defense? It's nothing more than waving the white flag. It's saying "I give up. You win! I don't want to play anymore. I'm no longer a threat, and I don't want to get shot again." The guy with the gun wants you to act like a dead man, then why not go along with it? Make the guy with the gun happy, and maybe he won't shoot you 15+1 times.
Actually, sometimes not voluntarily. There was a study done during WW1 wherein doctors noticed people dying from what should be survivable wounds. The belief was held, and I believe there is still evidence to that effect, that some people might literally be scared to death, believing that they are dead because their subconscious equates being shot with being killed. I don't know how all of that is explained physiologically, but it has been documented to have happened. True or not, there seems to be a link between the will to survive and survival, even with people who are not consciously aware. Some people in (and out of) the medical community swear by it.
harmon rabb
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that's not true in any state. in fact, a few commie/socialist/liberal states ban hollow points, but none of them ban fmj's.
chieftain
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Yup! I have seen it many times in combat, ER, ICU's etc.
Both ur guys and the bad guys. Very hard to stop a guy that doesn't want to be stopped and die. Very easy to kill or stop a guy that doesn't know he's in a fight, or doesn't have either a will to live, or a strong will to live. Don't ever underestimate physical condition either. Subjectively I personally put greater weight on the person's will, but physical condition IS a major component.
Don't ever count on a successful stop with a handgun, it's not a magic wand and it aint a rifle. Keep shooting until they are down and/or out of the fight. And even when down, they may not be out of the fight.
The ONLY thing approaching a sure single shot stop is a CNS hit. Otherwise, remember the vast majority of folks shot by handguns live. Number one reason is shot placement, number two reason is lack of power vs rifle/carbine/shotguns.
Immediately killed = stop. Stop does not have to mean killed. Killed may not stop if the BG stops after he hurts you or yours.
Don't confuse Killing with stopping. Killing will stop, but the question is the time frame of the kill, immediately or some later time, seconds, minutes, hours, days?
The only effective way of effecting a faster stop with handguns is a bunch of "good" hits with "high quality" bullets, short of a CNS hit, gives best POSSIBILITY of a timely stop. (drop the fluid level, let them bleed out, Hypovolemia, the faster the better = more holes)
AS recommended by the leading Terminal ballistic researcher and the FBI, if immediately stopping the bad guy is necessary and the desired goal, when ever possible use a shoulder weapon.
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