A new respect for the .22 lately.

[stalkingbear]

YES a .22 WILL kill somebody. Does that mean it will stop them? NO WAY can it be depended on to stop someone intent on doing you harm-especially fast enough to stop him "from all other acts of aggression" in time to save yourself. The simple facts of the matter is people who rely on an .22 as their primary or only defense weapon are only fooling themselves.

 

[jad0110]

YES a .22 WILL kill somebody. Does that mean it will stop them? NO WAY can it be depended on to stop someone intent on doing you harm-especially fast enough to stop him "from all other acts of aggression" in time to save yourself. The simple facts of the matter is people who rely on an .22 as their primary or only defense weapon are only fooling themselves.

The two problems I have with a 22 for defensive use are iffy penetration and the fact that is a rimfire ... it just isn't as reliable as a centerfire.

That said, if you place the shot well and the bullet penetrates far enough, it will stop the BG the same as anything else. A CNS hit is a CNS hit. Again, penetration can be lacking, especially if the BG is heavily clothed.

Now, I don't rely on a 22 for SD. I shoot other calibers just as well that are more reliable (centefire) and penetrate better in a larger variety of conditions.

But I do know people who are so recoil sensitive (arthritis) that a 22 is the only thing they can shoot without significant pain and massive flinching. And they are quite good shots with their 22s. I wouldn't call that foolish, it is just being aware of ones limitations and choosing what works best. If it happens to be a 22, so be it. It still beats harsh words or a thrown TV remote.

 

[robctwo]

Went to the range last week with my friend and his 12 yr old son. Shot some rifles, then the kid wanted to shoot pistols. His dad had a Glock 19 and factory ammo. Too much for the lad. I had a couple 9s and some hand loads, still more than he wanted and he was getting discouraged.

I pulled out my SA Loaded with the Ciener top end, 5 mags and a brick of .22. A little instuction and he was off and running. He shot about 3-400 rounds and was DELIGHTED.

I learned on my Dad's Ruger when I was 5 or 6. That would have been in the late 50s. He still has that gun even though I try to sneak it out of his house every now and then.

 

[punkndisorderly]

I just got back from the range not 30 minutes ago. There's not a month that goes by that I don't go through a brick of .22lr. I'd never use it for defensive use, but what others choose is just that: their choice.

I can't count the number of people who've looked at me like I'm wearing a tutu when I walk up to the table with my .22lr's and brck of ammo. Usually, those cats change their attitude when they see my groups compared to theirs (especially on the pistol range). I'm still sitting their plinking away with an ear to ear grin long after they've shot their 20 or 50 rounds of high dollar stuff. I hit the range every Sunday and alternate. Week 1: 100 rounds of centerfire pistol and 500 rounds of .22. Week 2: 100 rounds of centerfire rifle and 500 rounds of .22. Week 3 500 rounds of .22 rifle or pistol (whatever strikes my fancy). I couldn't afford to do even close to that if it was centerfire only.

 

[30mag]

I hear a lot about how a .22lr isn't to be relied upon to stop someone, but I think that getting shot at with anything would certainly deter most anyone... especially if it's a little 10-22 with one of those fifty-round clips being fired at a nearly automatic speed.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Good man!

She might like something with a youth stock though.

 

[The_Shootist]

Ha ! I had over the last couple of months about 1500 rounds of .22LR that I had very slowly been using . I had built up that stash over the last year when centerfire ammo was plentiful and reasonable priced.

Now that the centerfire stuff is expensive (when you can find it) more and more I just go to the range with my Cheetah or my 617.I'm afraid my above mentioned stash of .22 is down to a couple hundred rounds.

 

[AKElroy]

Before I argue with another post, let me stay within the thread & state that I have killed more game with and carried a .22 more often than any other chambering. When in the field hunting or camping remotely, I have always felt at ease with a .22 for protection. That said, when we have better options strictly for personal defense, we should use the best option available.

Some bad guys being shot by FBI agents noticed it, and not with birdshot either, with 9mm and maybe .38s. They hit an arm, but not anything vital. Had the round been a bit higher-powered, it would have hit a lung and saved the agents' lives. Given that at armed attacker would probably have their arms blocking in front of their COM, it makes sense to use the FBI guideline, unless you live in a thin-walled apartment or something

At "Accross the room" distances, Buck shot will OP, and it will group very tightly. If I am going to have to aim with rifle precision, I would prefer to be looking through one of the red-dots on one of my A/R's than a tiny bead front sight. If I am guarding a warehouse, I want 00. If I am in a trench facing an enemy, I'll take 00. But when my kids are a 7/8" of drywall away, I want heavy birdshot. As for hitting an arm or limb, from my 18" barelled 1300, cylinder bore, 3" magnum 2 oz loads of #6 or #4 open up 14" @ 10'. I would never use lighter 2 3/4" loads, so I am very specific with what I what I rely on. I know it is not scientific, but everything I have shot with this load @ 10', whether it be mellons, cactus, old cars, appliances---whatever---has shown such incredible damage that I am confident in the load for defense, balistics gel test or otherwise. I have seen posts showing less than lethal glancing wounds with these types of loads as reasons not to use them--I call those "Misses". I have yet to see a post claiming someone--anyone--has survived a center hit from 10' with this load. Larry Flint took several 00 shots to the chest, and he is,unfortunately, still with us.

 

[AKElroy]

I can't count the number of people who've looked at me like I'm wearing a

tutu when I walk up to the table with my .22lr's and brck of ammo. Usually, those cats change their attitude when they see my groups compared to theirs (especially on the pistol range). I'm still sitting their plinking away with an ear to ear grin long after they've shot their 20 or 50 rounds of high dollar stuff. I hit the range every Sunday and alternate. Week 1: 100 rounds of centerfire pistol and 500 rounds of .22. Week 2: 100 rounds of centerfire rifle and 500 rounds of .22. Week 3 500 rounds of .22 rifle or pistol (whatever strikes my fancy). I couldn't afford to do even close to that if it was centerfire only.

THIS IS A POST FROM A SHOOTER! And can I get an "Amen" form the church dear brothers. Could not have said it better.

 

[AKElroy]

A .22 handgun is what Jeff Cooper called an "eye-socket gun." A face full of .22 bullets will ruin someone's, anyone's, day. That said, my minimum caliber choice is .38 Special +P, with my .357 Magnum S&W Model 13 as my first primary gun. I do, however also carry a Kel-Tec P32 in .32 ACP as a BUG or when I can't carry a gun.

Cooper was an advocate of the .22 as a primary defensive weapon, assuming that any weapon so chambered can be handled expertly, athough I do not recall him limiting its use to eye shots. He was an incredible freedom advocate, may he RIP.

 

[xstuntman]

I've often felt there's a generation gap when it comes to 22lr handguns. It was good enough for my grandfather, shooting shorts no less. Good enough for all my uncles and father when out in the field and fishing. Then in the 70's the .357 mag was THE gun to have. In the 80's the 9mm craze took hold. The 90's gave us the 10mm and not long after the 40 S/W.
If the price of 500 S/W comes down I'm assuming it'll be the only reasonable CCW in the near future among the "truly" knowledgable:banghead:
I'll stick with my trusty 22 revolvers. BTW, to date not one single failure of brick 22 in any of them after 28 years and lord knows how many rounds. Mike

 

[pps]

Maybe so, but not in my family. Everyone from the late 1800's on in my family have cut their teeth on the 22lr

 

[f4t9r]

Not new for me. I have had respect for the 22 for years.

 

[TimboKhan]

Cooper was an advocate of the .22 as a primary defensive weapon, assuming that any weapon so chambered can be handled expertly, athough I do not recall him limiting its use to eye shots.

I don't know that I would call him an advocate of the .22 as a primary defense weapon. What he said was that a .22 up the tear duct would stop anyone. I suspect the point that he was trying to make was that as with anything, it is the shooter not the guns that have the biggest impact in a gun fight. If you really read what he wrote closely, you will find that his main, recurring theme isn't specific guns or cartridges, but training to use those guns and cartridges at a high level. Certainly he advocated his favorites (the .45 and a 1911 in particular), but even with that he was always more focused on shooter performance than gun/cartridge performance.

The thing is, he was right. Shoot someone in the tear duct with a .22 and you probably are going to stop the fight. How many of us have that kind of skill and coolness under fire? I don't. I know I can put a whole ton of .22's into centermass rapidly, but I don't think I could calmly stand there and shoot to pinpoint accuracy.

 

[renegade1alpha]

I carried a Beretta .22 semi auto as a back up at one time on a vest holster. Although I dont actually consider it a normal carry gun, I advise anyone that does carry one to practice with it.

You're right, shot placement is what counts. A half dozen .22LR rounds to the face or chest at a distance of about 5 feet would definitely get the job done most of the time I think.

 

[wyocarp]

A .22LR is a weapon of last resort, slightly above a knife or a slingshot.

Oh my goodness. If we are talking one shot, but why? Like some point out here, one could empty a .22 semi-auto into someone while keeping all the bullets on target which might be better than missing with most.

I don't carry one, but it's a whole bunch better than nothing. I'll take it over a knife every day of the week. I won't even consider the slingshot. Whatever gun one carries, fire until there is no threat or until out of ammo, which ever comes first. If done this way, the .22 will work in most instances.

 

[Dr. Fresh]

I wouldn't mind having a .22 submachine gun with a rate of fire in excess of 1,000 rpm.

 

[lloveless]

I agree with Wyocarp. I do occasionally use a .22 lr as a primary(when nothing else will do). Those who say a 22 lr is better than a knife, haven't been trained.
ll

 

[30mag]

Well, if the other guy has a gun, and you have a knife... well.. that's like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Isn't the first rule of gunfighting to bring a gun?

 

[MCgunner]

For those of us that grew up roaming the woods carrying and plinking with their favorite .22, the 22LR cartridge has always had our respect. The 380 and many other calibers do not compare in accuracy and penetration to a .22.

And just pure fun, there are not many in its class.

Can't add much to that. I have 5 .22 rifles and 7 .22 handguns at this point and I want more, rifles, anyway. I want a Browning auto, I would like a Papoose, would like a Nylon 66, ah, I love .22s.

 

[wyocarp]

Wow, the following story isn't even about using a "high" capacity .22, but a lowly single action 5 shot NAA revolver which in my mind would be for much of anything but very close emergency shooting. But, the .22 did the job against multiple targets. What is neat to read about is how real people reacted to getting shot with a .22.

On the 8th of May 2008, I faced off a gang of three armed goblins who in the weeks preceding my attack, had robbed and killed numerous victims. These scumbags attacked me in front of my wife and daughter in the drive of my house at 20h00. I had just returned from a formal business function to launch the head office of a new dental insurance in Cape Town and was wearing a tuxedo and therefore only carrying single action .22 Magnum N.A.A. revolver. They wanted my house keys as well as the keys to my new Mercedes Benz SUV which I was driving. With their firearms pointed at me, I drew mine (thank God for years of practice), and shot the apparent leader of that gang in the chest - he screamed like a stuck pig and staggered backwards. The first thing I did was run for cover. As the other two were only about 20 feet away from me, bullets rained down on me as I hid momentarily behind a tree in my drive. In this exchange I was hit in the left arm (but actually felt nothing) and I returned fire hitting the first one of the two remaining goblins in the groin. He ran away to the getaway car standing in the road, shouting and crying and shooting into the air like a drunk Mexican officer during the Battle of the Alamo. There was one left besides the one who I shot first still staggering around.He still had his gun in hand and tried to point it again in my direction. I gave him another round to the chest and he disappeared to the getaway vehicle, fatally wounded as I was to find out in the days that followed. The last one had to run past me to get out of my drive and being the coward that these scum normally are, couldn't quite muster the courage. As I pointed my revolver and fired at him, the revolver blew up in my hand and I had no choice but to take him on bare handed. I smacked him to the ground by punching him in the face as the fact that I was now unarmed seemed to give him some courage. As he fell, he pulled off a shot and hit me in the right arm. He then turned and ran as he realised I was ready to fight to the death and he wasn't feeling well with a smashed nose.

My wife, at this stage, had taken my .45 A.C.P. out and passed it to me through the window, giving me clear instructions to finish them off. They got away only with my bullets in them and in pain and I was lucky enough to win the fight.

What did I learn from this?

1. Always carry a gun no matter how small it may be. Even when the last thing you expect is to be attacked, don't let your logic of statistical probability of not being in mortal danger lull you into a false sense of security.

2. Remember that in a gun fight - cover is king!

3. Practice regularly to allow for the advantage of competent surprise,
AND
most importantly, if you want to win a gun fight, the most important factor is resolve and commitment. You have to have the inner courage to decide in a split second that you are going to win the fight irrespective of the consequences and then carry out that plan with determination and courage that surprises and stuns your "would be" attackers.

I hope that the above sheds some light and gives some valuable insight into a real life gun fight. I would like to hear from others on this forum who have experienced the same or similar situations.

Proud Boer

 

[KBintheSLC]

I have always loved and respected the 22LR. Some modern loadings like Velocitor's might even make a viable defensive weapon. If I was to carry a 22 for defensive use, I would get a S&W 317 Revolver or something similar. Rimfire auto's tend to be less than 100% reliable.

 

[AKElroy]

The thing is, he was right. Shoot someone in the tear duct with a .22 and you probably are going to stop the fight. How many of us have that kind of skill and coolness under fire? I don't. I know I can put a whole ton of .22's into centermass rapidly, but I don't think I could calmly stand there and shoot to pinpoint accuracy.

Cooper has numerous quotes extolling the need for expert shot placement. If the .22 was the only way to get it, then stick with the .22, he would say. I agree with Cooper in principle, but in practice, it's not for me, and it's not something I can recommend. I am a really good shot with a .22. I am not a super shot with much of anything else, but adequit. It's why I keep a 12 g for HD.

 

[wyocarp]

Wow, here's another. The lowly .22 is a force.

Would-be robber killed in fight with store clerk
March 9th, 2009 @ 11:33am
By Sam Penrod

CENTERFIELD -- A man was killed in a struggle for his gun when he tried to rob a Centerfield convenience store early Monday morning. Police arrived to find the man dead on the store's floor.

According to investigators, the man approached one of the clerks at the Walkers convenience store off Highway 89 on the border between Gunnison and Centerfield at about 12:20 a.m. as she was taking out the garbage at closing. He took her hostage at gunpoint. He then went in the store and took the other clerk hostage as well.

He forced them to tie each other up so he could steal the money. However, one of the clerks fought back and got the robber's gun, a.22 caliber rifle, away from him. That is when one of the clerks used the suspect's gun to shoot and kill him.

The clerks then called 911 and, officers arrived to find the robber killed.

 

[Bill B.]

I love .22's but if you depend on one buy the best ammo you can find! I saw a buddy with about 12 fail to fires out of 100 rounds of bulk Remington the last time we went to the range. I guess if I did depend on one CCI Mini Mags has been about as reliable as anything I have shot other than match ammo.