A pleasant run-in with my local police

[woad_yurt]

Every single person on this board commits multiple felonies every day.

What on earth does that mean???!!!

 

[ChaoSS]

What on earth does that mean???!!!

It means exactly what it says. There are so many laws that it is impossible to know them all. You could be committing a felony by violating copyright laws if you play around with photoshoping a picture you didn't even know was copyrighted. You could be in violation of a law by possessing something that was made in another country in violation of that countries laws. If you made a mistake on your tax forms, without even knowing it, you could be in violation of federal law.

 

[rideandcarry]

I got stopped for speeding and informed the LEO that I was licensed to carry and had one on me. He asked where I had it which I replied. He just told me to keep my hands awat from that general area. Thats all that happened in that matter...still got my ticket.

Now that's a pleasant experience, and the standard that should exist.

 

[rideandcarry]

I am a sworn LEO, and a gun nut. I have only had one opportunity of dealing with someone who had a ccw permit and was ludicrously dangerous. He was carrying a 12 inch 44 mag across his chest with yarn holding the butt, and the barrel in a crowded restaurant. Other than that, all ccw holders have been great. But every time I deal with or stop a ccw holder. I always tell the, "I know you have a permit and I'm not concerned about it, but I would like to see what you carry". Every time I have done this they have shown me their weapon, I usually reciprocate and show them my backups. (SAFELY) I have seen some peculiar weapons, and have bought a couple of the same brand and caliber. I then send them on their way with a warning. But to be honest, if I asked to see a weapon for the purpose of my safety and I got the whole "Its a violation of my rights to ask to see my gun", my discretion will go out the window and I will follow the letter of the law myself, and issue the citation. If one is legal and has nothing to hide, then the presentation of the legal weapon should not be an issue. Whoever refuses sounds pretty liberal to me.

Why in the world do you ask to see the guns? It's not your business. I have no desire to see your backups. I may be an honest citizen or a felony waiting to happen, but I should be left alone unless reasonable suspicion exists to interfere with my freedom to bear arms. Issue the citation or don't, but my response to you regarding showing you my gun to satisfy your curiosity shouldn't affect your decision to issue me the citation. If you weren't going to issue me a citation, but don't like my answer, you shouldn't then decide to go ahead an issue me one.

Your discretion goes out the window because you didn't get your way? You're one of the many reasons that people can't stand LEOs. What happened to principles? What happened to character?

 

[Crusader103]

I worked patrol in one form or another for nearly 10 years, in both relatively calm rural and in crime ridden metro areas. I often had the occasion of coming across people carrying firearms either concealed on their person, in vehicles, or otherwise. Sometimes they were carrying legal or with a permit. More than once I have come across a person carrying a firearm in what by the rule of law would be a violation, including concealed on their person without a permit.

Now take this as one law enforcer's opinion but I honestly could care less about whether you had a permit or not. I cared about whether you were a law abiding citizen. To me, that is not defined by whether or not the sheriff of the county deems it appropriate to issue a permit. It is defined by whether or not you are a thug.

More than once, I had occasion to interact with otherwise law abiding citizens with a firearm. Unless I had other reason to be concerned, I didn't even ask them to keep their hands away from it. Some might find that to be an officer safety concern but I can assure you that very few had better grasp of officer safety than me. I just don't think somebody with a firearm is a prima facie concern.

I also intervened multiple times on behalf of citizens with firearms that my fellow officers, in my opinion, were giving too much attention to. Officers all too often think that they are the only ones with rights to carry a firearm. I was in a position to educate my partners on the need for private citizens to carry, and I did. Many of those officers began to take a different view because of it.

To me, I envisioned the real possibility of an armed citizen being my only back-up when I stopped a doped up druggie on the backroad who thought it a good time to shoot me. If I am out of commission and about to take a finishing round to the head I can only pray that the passerby in the F-250 keeps his truck gun locked and loaded, willing to put the bad guy down while my bud's, racing like a bat out of hell, take 5 more minutes to get there. More than one officer has been saved, or an attempt has been made to save, by a private gun owner.

I should add, I have had more than one private citizen assist me with an unruly suspect when no other officer was on scene. None of those particular instances required the presentation of a firearm but I wouldn't have cared if my citizen assistance had been carrying. I can tell a bad guy from a good guy by their actions and demeanor. I appreciated it every time and they always got a nice thank you on department letterhead later.

Take that for what it is worth. Understand that not all officers have shared my point of view. It is always best to cooperate with the directions and requests of an officer. But to me, I don't see a reason to disarm someone that openly tells you that they are carrying. Seems that would be self-defeating if they had intentions of hurting you.

 

[lonegunman]

I don't have a problem with an officer examining the gun, unless he wants to run the serial numbers to see if it is stolen or some other way or being spiteful. In that case, I get his information and file a complaint with his department so we both can enjoy a little embarassment.

Some guys just want to talk guns and some know little or nothing about guns and it is a good way to trade a little information or even offer to go shooting and let him try something new.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

Every single person on this board commits multiple felonies every day


noted for the hyperbole hall of fame

 

[rideandcarry]

I worked patrol in one form or another for nearly 10 years, in both relatively calm rural and in crime ridden metro areas. I often had the occasion of coming across people carrying firearms either concealed on their person, in vehicles, or otherwise. Sometimes they were carrying legal or with a permit. More than once I have come across a person carrying a firearm in what by the rule of law would be a violation, including concealed on their person without a permit.

Now take this as one law enforcer's opinion but I honestly could care less about whether you had a permit or not. I cared about whether you were a law abiding citizen. To me, that is not defined by whether or not the sheriff of the county deems it appropriate to issue a permit. It is defined by whether or not you are a thug.

More than once, I had occasion to interact with otherwise law abiding citizens with a firearm. Unless I had other reason to be concerned, I didn't even ask them to keep their hands away from it. Some might find that to be an officer safety concern but I can assure you that very few had better grasp of officer safety than me. I just don't think somebody with a firearm is a prima facie concern.

I also intervened multiple times on behalf of citizens with firearms that my fellow officers, in my opinion, were giving too much attention to. Officers all too often think that they are the only ones with rights to carry a firearm. I was in a position to educate my partners on the need for private citizens to carry, and I did. Many of those officers began to take a different view because of it.

To me, I envisioned the real possibility of an armed citizen being my only back-up when I stopped a doped up druggie on the backroad who thought it a good time to shoot me. If I am out of commission and about to take a finishing round to the head I can only pray that the passerby in the F-250 keeps his truck gun locked and loaded, willing to put the bad guy down while my bud's, racing like a bat out of hell, take 5 more minutes to get there. More than one officer has been saved, or an attempt has been made to save, by a private gun owner.

Take that for what it is worth. Understand that not all officers have shared my point of view. It is always best to cooperate with the directions and requests of an officer. But to me, I don't see a reason to disarm someone that openly tells you that they are carrying. Seems that would be self-defeating if they had intentions of hurting you.

Amen!!! This is exactly how it should be, a cooperative relationship between law-abiding citizens and LEOs. If there is no reason to be concerned, then there should be no intervention whatsoever. If I'm ever asked to hand over my weapon to an LEO, I will cooperate only because my experience has been that arguing with one will get me nowhere, even though I believe them to be in the wrong.

 

[General Geoff]

noted for the hyperbole hall of fame

Sadly, it is not hyperbole. Read Three Felonies a Day, by Harvey Silverglate.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

why am i reminded of girls who win a wet t-shirt contest once and then go on to tell tales of their life as a stripper

 

[Two Cold Soakers]

Sadly, it is not hyperbole. Read Three Felonies a Day, by Harvey Silverglate.

Scan a copy, post a link, and I'll do it, until then, don't make assumptions you can't back up.

 

[General Geoff]

No thanks, I'd rather not knowingly commit a crime.


Rest assured, if you've ever spilled some oil while changing your car's fluids (or if your car leaks any oil), you've committed a felony. If you've ever dumped some water out of a bottle outside, you may have committed a felony (depending on the mood of the EPA agent investigating you). Ever take a leak in the woods? Felony. Ever fill in some gravel for a driveway? Could be a felony, if the EPA feels like charging you. These are just a few examples of innocuous activities which can be construed as (and have indeed been prosecuted as) felonies.

 

[BULLSI]

But every time I deal with or stop a ccw holder. I always tell the, "I know you have a permit and I'm not concerned about it, but I would like to see what you carry". Every time I have done this they have shown me their weapon, I usually reciprocate and show them my backups. (SAFELY) I have seen some peculiar weapons, and have bought a couple of the same brand and caliber.





The side of the road is no place for show and tell with loaded firearms

 

[Bill_Rights]

+1 for the "fact" that LEOs often treat CCW holders with more respect and deference.

My wife, a CCW holder violated a minor traffic law and was pulled over. The officer rather quickly realized she was a CCW holder and asked if she had he gun? Answer: "No" (which was true, at that time). Let her off with a warning very quickly.

Not sure what that proves - just one more "data point".

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

Well, this has been interesting. Up until tonight, I thought I had had a pleasant run-in with my local police, but now I'd be feeling rather put upon, except that I've always had such positive dealings with the police.

Maybe I'm a cop groupie. My first two Bachelor's were in Police Administration and Forensic Sciences. I wanted to be a police officer until my last year in the program when I did some ride-alongs, including spending a week with a homicide detective. That killed all of the movie-inspired romantic notions I had about police work. I finished my degrees, and then went into construction for a few years before coming back to school and becoming a teacher. The ride-alongs were a real eye-opener. I've seen first-hand what LEOs have to deal with daily, and it left me with a whole new level of respect for them.

It's also hard for me to think in hypotheticals like "what if you were hiding your heroin in the gun," since I never bother hiding the heroin I never use...

From my point of view, the officer was polite to a fault, well within his rights under the law, and a fellow gun enthusiast. I just can't get my head around a "me vs. them" world view of government and law enforcement. I don't know as I buy the multiple felonies per day argument either, and based on the idea of graveling a driveway as a felony, I think it's a faulty notion, something akin to argumentum ad absurdum - technically correct, but wrong in every rational sense.

I understand the reasoning behind the view that holds the LEO shouldn't have asked for my gun, but I disagree with it, because it comes from a world-view so fundamentally different from my own. Where I see a really nice cop who likes guns, others see a cop trampling my rights. I doubt that either side will win any converts, because I'm not sure either side is wrong.

I'm sure I'd have different views had I had other, less pleasant, run-ins with the police, but I haven't, and so hold the views I have.

KR

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

Ever take a leak in the woods? Felony.

another hall of fame nominee the manure one

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

In retrospect, maybe the guy wasn't nice because I look like a decent sort. Maybe he was nice to me because of the BHP I was carrying. Maybe if I had produced, you know, a Glock or something, it would have soured him.

KR

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

I'm sure I'd have different views had I had other, less pleasant run-ins with the police, but I haven't, and so hold the views I have.


shucks i've had a number of less than pleasant experiences and still can't fathom the cop hating thing. i once thought it was all authority figure issues now i'm leaning towards repressed badge envy.

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

Why in the world do you ask to see the guns? It's not your business.

I think the issue of whether or not it is the LEO's business to see a CCW's weapon is debatable, but again I doubt if either viewpoint will pick up any converts, so I won't get into a protracted argument that can't be settled.

I will answer the question though, why would he ask to see my weapon? curiosity. Maybe the officer felt relaxed enough with me to not make the stop "business as usual."

I can't count the times I've asked other shooters about their weapons, including on and off-duty LEOs. Usually we strike up an interesting conversation. On occasion I've made friends like three of the guys I hunt with, all of whom I met at shooting ranges. We've been friends for years and socialize outside of shooting and hunting - barbecuing, watching movies, going to parties together, etc. Only rarely have I asked someone about their weapon and received a terse response.

One of my favorite things about the shooting community has always been the incredible courtesy exhibited by the vast majority of 2A folks. We are a polite lot, much more so, in my experience, than the public at large.

KR

 

[mharveyww1]

Stopped THREE TIMES!

I've had my CCW for two years. Prior to that, it had been 20 years since I had been stopped by and LEO for any reason.
In the past year, I've been stopped 3X...all for malfunctioning lights (that ongoing electrical problem has now been diagnosed and fixed)!

I live in a large metro area, covered by several separate law enforcement agencies, so being recognized or 'knowing your local policeman' is not a consideration. So each time I was stopped, I presented the LEO with both my DL and CCW.
All three officers thanked me for letting them know and simply asked if I was carrying a weapon at that time and where it was. They were just as nice and respectful as anyone could ask for and NONE of them gave me a ticket!

The CCW eases their suspicion. They can reasonably assume that I am not a convicted felon and would not have been granted the CCW if I had showed up on someone's file of 'evil-doers' during the background check.

 

[wishin]

Good experience all things considered. I've had the same basic experience and the LEO was not at all friendly...........

 

[HunterBear71]

Why is it debatable wether the LEO should have asked to fondle the weapon? What in the world about the stop required handling the weapon? I understand the cop was a polite guy but he had no reason to examine the gun.

 

[General Geoff]

I don't know as I buy the multiple felonies per day argument either, and based on the idea of graveling a driveway as a felony, I think it's a faulty notion, something akin to argumentum ad absurdum - technically correct, but wrong in every rational sense.

I'm not making this up. And I agree that it's wrong in every rational sense. The law as it exists today is largely irrational and immoral, though. The fact remains that the law, as written, can be used to prosecute anyone for almost anything. So don't go condemning felons as monsters of society, because you commit them every day, along with everyone else.

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

I'm not making this up.

I have no doubt that you read this in the book you mentioned, but I take issue with some of the arguments that the author is making.

And I agree that it's wrong in every rational sense. The law as it exists today is largely irrational and immoral, though. The fact remains that the law, as written, can be used to prosecute anyone for almost anything. So don't go condemning felons as monsters of society, because you commit them every day, along with everyone else.

Again, I take issue with this argument, BUT it's a debate more suited to some other venue. We've moved from a specific incident into some very broad, non-firearm specific, discussions.

KR

 

[ChaoSS]

Again, I take issue with this argument, BUT it's a debate more suited to some other venue. We've moved from a specific incident into some very broad, non-firearm specific, discussions.

KR

I disagree, because the point remains that the simple act of breaking the law, even committing a felony or multiple felonies, does not qualify someone as dangerous, or worthy of being disarmed.