A Re-visit to "What to do if someone is kicking down your door?"

[Deanimator]

And once again, I would like to point out that HD never starts and stops at 'shooting at door kickers'; it always involves layers of defenses that includes hardened entry points, perimeter (and possiblu interior) alarms, intermediate barriers, dogs, and so forth. Planning for door kickers is fine; planning on shooting as the sole means of response is less than fine.

Unfortunately, at least 95% of advice I see regarding this subject totally ignores those of us who live in apartments and have minimal means. Where I live:

A dog is not an option.
Replacing the door is not an option.
Alarms other than very primitive ones are not an option.
"Safe rooms" are not an option because a ten year old could kick in any door in the apartment.
"Running away" is not an option either, be it out a 2nd story window or over a 100' cliff, and not at my age.

Awareness and the ability and willingness to confront an attacker are about all I have.

 

[rbernie]

Unfortunately, at least 95% of advice I see regarding this subject totally ignores those of us who live in apartments and have minimal means.

When I lived in apartments, I made sure that I lived in complexes that had few local crime reports and that ideally allowed small dogs, installed access barrier bars across the patio door/windows, installed 3" screws in the door frames to tie them to the wall studs (filling in the heads and painting them so that they were largely invisible), and so forth. Except for the dog, not one of these 'improvements' cost me much of anything but each was designed to make me less likely to be seen as a target or make unwanted ingress into my apartment harder/slower.

I am absolutely not discounting the need to be able and willing to confront an intruder. I am simply trying to point out that, for most folk and in most circumstances, we need to be more multi-dimensional than simply declaring our willingness to blast anyone foolish enough to come kickin' on the door. Choosing where we live and performing moderate efforts to make our residence harder to breach and less enticing to breach are all valuable things to do, and should probably be completed along with formulatin' the plan on how to repel boarders should the worst come to pass.

 

[Agostini]

kleanbore says: If you mean potential deadly threat, certainly.

You know nothing about my family’s situation – nothing.

That sounds very reasonable to me. Realize, of course, that others will weigh in on what had been reasonable to believe necessary, perhaps in a trial court, and that the law and jury instructions will vary according to jurisdiction.

Again, you know nothing about my situation. I’m well aware how things evolve from SD situation in my state.

 

[Deanimator]

I can neither afford nor do I have room for a dog. In my current environment, having a dog would be inhumane to the dog.

I'm in this apartment because I had almost no time to find one when I made my last move. I cannot afford to move. I'm stuck where I am, at least until I find stable employment.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Agostini: You know nothing about my family’s situation – nothing.

Of course I don't, but I certainly didn't mean to dispute you.

I offered a real example of someone coming through my door without an invitation who turned out to not have been deadly threat.

So--is it really appropriate to consider everyone who comes in uninvited to constitute a deadly threat, or would it be better to be prepared in case he or she turns out to be one? I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that you did mean potentially.

Suppose I had been indoors and that it had been lawful for me to shoot at the time--and suppose that I had done so. Would anyone have been better off?

 

[Old Guy]

And round and round we go

You can look carefully at the salient points of your home, neighborhood, neighbors, your ability's, experience, weapons. And a whole parcel of common sense wont hurt.

And go from there.

At the moment it is 9-23PM, I am in the back bedroom, tapping on my Lap Top, one finger! Dressing gown on, Glock 19 in the right pocket.

Paranoid? no, but I always, always, go armed, the pistol sits on the bedside table till showered in the AM, then on the belt. I have a little card in my wallet, it is in case I have an accident!

But I do not go out to have an accident, still got the wee card, and the Glock 19. I hear the two Doberman s next door have the odd Woof, Woof together, the house behind mine, over a fence, two dogs, next door but one, a young found mix, nice dog, nice Guy owns it, walks it regularly.

Walk down the street, lots of Woofs! One way in, same way out, most likely a very safe area. Don't leave your doors unlocked. I back the Jeep into the Garage, nothing parked on the drive, lights on outside all night.

So live your life, be happy.

 

[ChCx2744]

Kleanbore said:

is it really appropriate to consider everyone who comes in uninvited to constitute a deadly threat

Is this really THAT hard to believe? I personally know many, MANY people who think this way. I consider every single person I encounter (Whether self initiated, accidentally, etc) I will consider them capable of destroying me and my family at the drop of a hat, regardless of what others say. Of course there will be external factors such as size of BG, visual of their hands, situation, surroundings, etc...But any coherent and normal human being with 5 fingers and 2 feet, is physically able to destroy life. Whenever you meet ANYONE in life, smile, be courteous and be prepared to kill them at any instant.

 

[Kleanbore]

Is this [that everyone who comes in uninvited constitutes a deadly threat] really THAT hard to believe? I consider every single person I encounter (Whether self initiated, accidentally, etc) I will consider them capable of destroying me and my family at the drop of a hat, regardless of what others say.

Hmmm.... Well, some of them may be capable, but I'm not sure why anyone would consider them all to constitute deadly threats.

But any coherent and normal human being with 5 fingers and 2 feet, is physically able to destroy life.

I think you would have a very rough time convincing reasonable people that someone who is unarmed and is neither stronger nor more fit than you has the ability to cause death or serious bodily harm. And "what others say" is what's going to count, if things go south, so to speak.

So, are you saying that everyone you meet represents a "deadly threat"? Maybe if you could define what you mean by the term....

Whenever you meet ANYONE in life, smile, be courteous and be prepared to kill them at any instant.

Gosh!

It may well be that I just do not know what your are trying to say--and I may not be alone. Rather than criticizing your words, I'll offer this for your consideration; it's too long to paste, but it describes the concepts of justified use of deadly force to stop someone who has the ability and opportunity to seriously harm you, when you are in jeopardy and when you have no other option:

http://www.useofforce.us/

This is also worth studying:

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Old Guy: You can look carefully at the salient points of your home, neighborhood, neighbors, your ability's, experience, weapons. And a whole parcel of common sense wont hurt.

And go from there.

At the moment it is 9-23PM, I am in the back bedroom, tapping on my Lap Top, one finger! Dressing gown on, Glock 19 in the right pocket.

Paranoid? no, but I always, always, go armed, the pistol sits on the bedside table till showered in the AM, then on the belt.

Words of wisdom, I think, but some may have to think it through.

After I had considered the house layout, points of entry, and where my wife and I spend our time, I realized that keeping my gun in the bedroom, as I had done for decades, did not really provide very effective risk reduction.

No, I do not think that what you are doing is paranoid. I might have some years ago, but I had just not thought it through.

 

[MariusDP51]

Mr. PE,

Inner doors here are usually masonite doors in steel frames. Outer doors are usually solid wood doors in wooden frames.

An easy way to reinforce your solid doors could be multiple-point locks, or just a solid sliding mechanism. A door secured in three places will bemuch harder to kick open than one locked in just one place. Imo.

 

[03Shadowbob]

Whenever you meet ANYONE in life, smile, be courteous and be prepared to kill them at any instant.

Wow, just wow. I would hate to be so paranoid and have to go through life. There is a difference between prepared and paranoid.

 

[rbernie]

Whenever you meet ANYONE in life, smile, be courteous and be prepared to kill them at any instant.

Oh, geez - freakin' SPARE ME the mucho macho melodrama. Statements like that are simply childish and are not fit for posting on The High Road. They show an utter lack of experience in real world self defense, which is the purpose of this subforum.

Not everyone you meet is capable of harming you. Some are, and some are simply not. The first order of effective self defense is likely cultivating the ability to tell the difference between those that possess the means to harm you and those that do not. A second might be to develop the ability to limit the opportunities and motivations for those who might harm you to actually do so. Finally, it is likely prudent to determine the mechanisms by which those that are capable of harming might in fact do so, and crafting avoidance and mitigation plans and capabilities to address those nefarious mechanisms.

I have just outlined at least three dimensions in which your planning and preparation and training should occur. Being 'prepared to kill them [ANYONE] at any instant' is frankly ludicrous, and if I actually believed that any adult walked through life that way, I would strongly consider finding the means by which I could get them psychiatric help.

To get this thread back on track; if somebody is kicking my door down, they are LIKELY to be capable of harming me-n-mine and they LIKELY have motive to do so (but may not, as has been pointed out). Determining an intruder's motive can be tricky, and takes time. If time is available, then I fully intend to use it to better determine the nature of the threat. If that time is not available, then Plan B gets implemented.

As I have stated above, I like the idea of structuring things to help me both avoid the thread and to MAKE the time in the scenario that allows me to better determine the nature of the threat. That cannot always be done, and that will not always work. In the event that it does not work, the local laws governing the use of deadly force are a good guide to the legally accepted responses.

 

[recurry]

Ironically, many of the people who seriously consider this sort of thing have probably spent more money on firearms and related technology than it would take to just secure the door in the first place

 

[Agostini]

Kleenbore says: Of course I don't, but I certainly didn't mean to dispute you.

I offered a real example of someone coming through my door without an invitation who turned out to not have been deadly threat.

So--is it really appropriate to consider everyone who comes in uninvited to constitute a deadly threat, or would it be better to be prepared in case he or she turns out to be one? I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that you did mean potentially.

Suppose I had been indoors and that it had been lawful for me to shoot at the time--and suppose that I had done so. Would anyone have been better off?

I think the topic was "somebody kicking down your door."

That is not an uncle appearing uninvited, that is an offensive and violent act that in my circumstances (s/he - you - is not aware of) will be met with appropriate force.

I never open the door to anyone. Anyone kicking down my door has made his decision and some decisions have unintended consequences.

I don't want to shoot anyone -ever; attack my home and we will defend our lives with all the necessary force. You've chosen the wrong house to kick the door down.

 

[Harley Rider 55]

I watch the show and see which GSD brings me the biggest piece.

 

[Kleanbore]

Agostini's Post 64

We are in agreement.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Unfortunately, at least 95% of advice I see regarding this subject totally ignores those of us who live in apartments and have minimal means. Where I live:

A dog is not an option.
Replacing the door is not an option.
Alarms other than very primitive ones are not an option.
"Safe rooms" are not an option because a ten year old could kick in any door in the apartment.
"Running away" is not an option either, be it out a 2nd story window or over a 100' cliff, and not at my age.

Awareness and the ability and willingness to confront an attacker are about all I have.

You have no firearms or weapons to use but you have access to the internet? You have no way to barricade or at least move to a position within your apartment that will increase your cover or concealability? You have nothing with which you can barricade your door or you are just not going to bother?

Some primitive alarms work very well.

 

[Deanimator]

You have no firearms or weapons to use but you have access to the internet?

I don't recall saying that.

The ONLY option I have is weapons. There's no place in the apartment which would keep out a sickly ten year old.

I don't have time to screw around with an intruder. I have nowhere to go and no space to trade for time. As I said, if you break in, you're getting shot.

 

[philip964]

Since this section is on tactics, and this tread is about a stranger in your house, there to do you harm, here is another option on what to do that has not been suggested.

It can be illustrated by my neighbor (a single guy in his late '50's). His dog began barking for no reason, so he retreated to his bedroom and called 911 as he believed someone was in his house. The 911 operator suggested that he find a way out of the house, he refused to leave. The police arrived in about 20 minutes. The 911 operator had long ago gotten bored with the whole thing and hung up.

From this I have gathered 20 minutes is the response time for a BG in your house in my neighborhood.

The police found no BG, no forced entry and nothing missing from the house.

I guess he was lucky. Twenty minutes is a lot of time to do many things and still have time to get away.

I'll opt for calling 911 after it is all over.

 

[Deanimator]

It can be illustrated by my neighbor (a single guy in his late '50's). His dog began barking for no reason, so he retreated to his bedroom and called 911 as he believed someone was in his house. The 911 operator suggested that he find a way out of the house, he refused to leave. The police arrived in about 20 minutes. The 911 operator had long ago gotten bored with the whole thing and hung up.

This is the counterpoint to "never do houseclearing!" that you see here.

Enough false alarms and the cops won't even come, or if they do, they'll take their time.

If I were to take that approach, the cops would have to break through, not one, but TWO doors to get in. I doubt that my landlord would be too pleased, especially if that happened every time I heard a noise.

One night I heard a crash in the living room. I got my flashlight and M1911 and carefully went out to the living room to find that a shelf had collapsed, spilling the shelf and books all over the floor.

 

[Manco]

But any coherent and normal human being with 5 fingers and 2 feet, is physically able to destroy life. Whenever you meet ANYONE in life, smile, be courteous and be prepared to kill them at any instant.

Despite all of the shocked or disgusted reactions, this seems perfectly reasonable to me, provided that I've made all of the right assumptions regarding intent (in the context of using guns for self-defense). Plenty of people have been murdered by those who nobody suspected to be even remotely capable of committing such an act. One can't always tell when a person is going to "snap" or whether it's even a possibility with them, so by default it is a possibility with everybody. Therefore one has to be prepared to defend oneself from anybody, in the general case, and when firearms are involved, one must be prepared to kill anybody at any time. I could say "potentially kill anybody" if that would make people feel better, but it changes nothing--whenever one deliberately points a loaded gun at something, there must be a willingness to destroy it, plain and simple. If one is not willing to kill in self-defense, when justified, then one shouldn't use a loaded gun. This is separate and distinct from the intent to ensure that one's assailant is dead, Dead, DEAD no matter what--that would be murder if actually committed, while merely being prepared and willing to kill anybody at any time in the process of stopping their aggression, if they become dangerously aggressive, would be justifiable homicide should shots be fired and the aggressor actually dies.

Back to ChCx2744's statement, it might read like macho bluster to some, but I still don't see what's wrong with it, aside perhaps from a lack of qualification or explanation. While I can appreciate the concern about choosing one's words carefully, frankly I think that some people are overreacting to the quoted statement.

By the way, for the sake of simplicity, I've left out issues such as trust in determining who one should be prepared to (potentially) kill. That's a personal matter, although it should be noted that people are often murdered by trusted individuals, so I'm not going to suggest to anybody whom to trust and what reasonable risks to take in living one's life. I trust my immediate family members and would defend them with my own life, but that's a personal decision I've made. I also used to trust somebody I've known for years who has now threatened to kill me, so things can always change, too, can't they?

 

[ChCx2744]

My responses stem from the original matter at hand/topic of this post.

Can you greet everyone you meet at your door with a smile and your CC piece in your back pocket? I certainly do. Most of the time I know who is coming and when. Sometimes I may not. Those times my "spidey senses" are on higher alert. I find no offense in the surprised responses. It just goes to show who actually has a S&T mindset and who does not.

 

[mrokern]

It just goes to show who actually has a S&T mindset and who does not.

 

[HOWARD J]

In Michigan we have the castle doctrine. If I am in my home or out somewhere that is legal for me to be & I feel that my life is threatened--I may use deadly force to defend myself.
What bugs me: I am at home--someone is breaking into my
garage -stealing my car & other things.
The only thing I am allowed to do is call the cops.
I can yell at them ---if I go outside & attack them in any way--I become the criminal. THIS SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I yell at them & they shoot at me---that is a different story.

 

[ghitch75]

i will go out with gun in hand and see how it plays out....then a judge can decide....