Advice Needed-Cast Bullets in 30-06 And Reduced Loads

[Jim Watson]

Harris never said not to use fillers with any of the common rifle powders.

Well, turn it on its head, what powders does he say you SHOULD use fillers for?
So far we have no filler for Red Dot, nothing said about others.

I believe he also said that 2400 was not very position sensitive but I no longer have his articles to check that. I did pretty well with 2400 when I was tinkering with cast bullets. I didn't have any Red Dot, but 700X produced good plinking loads.

Ross Seyfried had some interesting ideas on fillers but with straight case Nitro For Black express rifle loads.

 

[Alex G]

My opinion is his sample size is too low... which we all generally agreed he needs to expand his round count.

Which I am doing on the next phase of testing. This initial test work-up was simply to perform somewhat of a ladder test to find accuracy and velocity node potentials. Further testing in larger group sizes and finer increments will be my next phase in development.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

For .300 Savage, .30-30, .30-40 and .30-06 I like the Quality Cast 155 and 173gr. RNFP-GC cast bullets. They make a good bullet in my experience. Not sure if they're shipping again yet, though. I buy 200 at a time - 100 of each - and that lasts a few years. Last ones I bought were Hi-Tek bronze coated. I don't think they use that anymore. All I see on their site right now are the 155's with some gunmetal finish, $12.25/100. Might have to get some and load them up for next Spring.

For .30-30 in the Savage 340 I use 17.5 gr. of 2400 powder - but I got a bunch of loads using the same amount of IMR 4227 and some lighter IMR 3031 loads for that rifle, the 10" Contender and Marlin 336 using everything from 110gr. cast and jacketed up through 180gr. Core-Lokt. I won't say how light those 3031 loads are because they're under the book minimum starting load. It works for me but I get yelled at around here for recommending under the book start so I won't. For .30-40 in my wife's Krag carbine I use 21gr. of 2400. That's for both the heavier and lighter bullets. Longest shot around here - unless you hunt clear-cuts which I avoid - is under 70 yards for whitetail and under 70 feet for pigs. Most pigs I take at rock-throwing distance with a handgun. Won't talk about that either as it tends to get folks riled up. Not sure why but to me a 4" Colt .38Spl Official Police or a Ruger BlackHawk .357 is about perfect for shopping for pork. Anyway, for the cast in .300Sav I prefer the 155gr. only (I got an old Remington 760 "Game Master" pump action) but I don't use it too often. Nice rifle, don't get me wrong, but it's old and rattles a good bit - kind of like me. I don't take a .30-06 out in the field too often either but when I do it's an old Remington 721 and I almost always use 180gr. Core-Lokt bullets and 41.5gr. of IMR 4064. Those are discontinued now but I got a 15-or-so pound bucket of them so I think I'll be okay for a while. I do have a nice cast load using the 155gr. RNFP-GC's and it's 24.5gr. of IMR 4227 powder. I don't have any pretty targets to post. I don't like cameras and they don't like me so we're just fine not being in each other's company.

Anyway, hope it helps cause that's what I do... but like I always say, Don't do what I do, it won't work for you; you do you the best you know how.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Which I am doing on the next phase of testing. This initial test work-up was simply to perform somewhat of a ladder test to find accuracy and velocity node potentials. Further testing in larger group sizes and finer increments will be my next phase in development.

For your stated purpose:

The intent of these is primarily for freehand shooting around 1600-2200 FPS or so out of a modern bolt action 30-06. (Both comfortable and affordable to shoot as a round to work on my freehand shooting, and to hand to a friend with a 50 round box of ammo and let them blast away. Also, the advantage of low recoil for people that otherwise wouldn’t like shooting full-power 30-06.)

I would suggest you try a few freehand and see where you're hitting. If recoil and muzzle blast are tame, and you can hit the barn door from the far stall, call up a buddy or two who are recoil shy and have them try it out. Just a thought.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Well, turn it on its head, what powders does he say you SHOULD use fillers for?
So far we have no filler for Red Dot, nothing said about others.

I believe he also said that 2400 was not very position sensitive but I no longer have his articles to check that. I did pretty well with 2400 when I was tinkering with cast bullets. I didn't have any Red Dot, but 700X produced good plinking loads.

Ross Seyfried had some interesting ideas on fillers but with straight case Nitro For Black express rifle loads.

Yup and yup! Totally understand and agree. Good post.

Charlie Dell ("The Modern Schuetzen Rifle," 2nd Edition) claimed he could ring a chamber on demand with certain "normal" loads and in certain cartridges by simply pointing the rifle straight up and pulling the trigger. The phenomenon seemed to be caused by the powder all being completely back against the primer and perfectly flat across the base, since it was pointed straight up. The result was a "pressure wave" that ringed the chamber around where the base of the bullet was. The physics behind that claim is sound: a pressure wave "slapping" the base of the bullet, or neck of a sloped chamber, during the hottest part of the burn cycle can, according to Bell, Harris and a few others who've experimented with it, cause a faint but discernable"ring" at the contact point. A ring at the same location was claimed by Dell when certain types of filler were used, particularly with straight walled cartridges but not exclusively.

Now, I'm not a huge fan of most of the gunzine writers and don't take their words as any wiser than the old coot down the road who I KNOW has been handloading and hunting deer, pigs, bears, gators, raccoons, possums, turkey, pheasant and such since Davy Crockett was in rubber pants. However, since we are supposed to cite some kind of reputable reference other folks can check out - the old coot down the road isn't on the internet and won't talk to strangers - I did. Been yelled out for not citing lettered known authors and for doing it so it looks like a no-win situation to me but, here goes. I didn't just mention Ed Harris, I also mentioned Charlie Dell (cited above) and "a few others" like John Campbell, who wrote several ASSRA Journal articles on the subject. Now, I never said I was the wizard of all knowledge about reloading or anything else - and in fact said I wasn't - but I did say some folks who are known and claim to know better have tended to give such-n-such advice not to use Dacron or filler fiber with light 30-caliber loads. That's a fact that such advice was given. I did stipulate "tended to," not "writ it on stone tablets don't ever to." I never bothered using fillers or such. Never found it necessary, either except for black powder cartridges - but I'm also not a professional bench rest shooter and never stayed in a Holiday Inn Express so it's my opinion to be taken for what you paid for it.

Hope this helps and y'all try to be kind to each, hear?

 

[Jim Watson]

Once upon a time, the recommendation was to NOT put granular filler in a bottleneck case. Fluffy stuff like Dacron or kapok were considered ok, proper use was to fill the case with fiber, not pack it down into a wad with airspace.
There was some work done with case full loads of very slow powder, like 4831 in .45-70. Lots of unburnt powder but uniform velocity and good accuracy. Nearly as good as real black.

A friend gave me some of the old Squibb pattern bullets he cast out of real Linotype. Shot like a dream with 20 gr of 2400. When I borrowed his mould and cast some out of pistol scrap, they did better at lower velocity with 16 gr.

There was a commercial caster named Larry Shappey. He started with regular Lyman and RCBS moulds, but tuned them up for better casting. Bullets shot very well.
The old Green Mountain cast bullets never showed me much. I still have some left that I will probably donate to be melted down.
There was a Fusilier brand of gas check bullets that shot well.

 

[Alex G]

Thanks guys!

If recoil and muzzle blast are tame, and you can hit the barn door from the far stall, call up a buddy or two who are recoil shy and have them try it out. Just a thought.

That’s a really good idea, I think I may actually do that!

 

[Alex G]

Picked up two more “toys” to help speed the brass process/give greater consistency-
1) WFT-2 (Worlds Finest Trimmer-2) for 30-06, but can easily be changed between calibers by tapping out the shoulder bushing. I ordered the carbide end mill to go with it, and man is this thing sweet! High quality overall, and makes short work of trimming! Case trim lengths within 0.001” provided the shoulder is sized correctly.
Overall very impressed with both the build quality and performance of the WFT-2! I’d looked at the Giraud and Trim-It 2, but decided I’d rather go with an end mill setup vs the 3 way cutter for ease of setup and maintenance, and easy caliber conversions.
2) K&M primer pocket uniformer. Because I use mixed headstamp brass for these cast loads, I wanted a little more consistency when seating primers both in force and depth. Fine tuned the cutting depth after getting it, chucked it in the impact and already did 250 pieces of brass with it! It definitely improves the consistency of primer pockets in all of the commercial headstamp brass that I’m currently using.

 

[Fatelvis]

16-18grns 2400 under a 173-210grn boolit is good for bolt or pump rifles, and 34-36grns H4895 under the same boolit will just operate most Garands, and still be mild and accurate .

 

[AJC1]

Picked up two more “toys” to help speed the brass process/give greater consistency-
1) WFT-2 (Worlds Finest Trimmer-2) for 30-06, but can easily be changed between calibers by tapping out the shoulder bushing. I ordered the carbide end mill to go with it, and man is this thing sweet! High quality overall, and makes short work of trimming! Case trim lengths within 0.001” provided the shoulder is sized correctly. View attachment 1022763View attachment 1022764
Overall very impressed with both the build quality and performance of the WFT-2! I’d looked at the Giraud and Trim-It 2, but decided I’d rather go with an end mill setup vs the 3 way cutter for ease of setup and maintenance, and easy caliber conversions.
2) K&M primer pocket uniformer. Because I use mixed headstamp brass for these cast loads, I wanted a little more consistency when seating primers both in force and depth. Fine tuned the cutting depth after getting it, chucked it in the impact and already did 250 pieces of brass with it! It definitely improves the consistency of primer pockets in all of the commercial headstamp brass that I’m currently using. View attachment 1022765

Ok I'll bite. How do you run a uniformer on an impact gun. It appears attached but curious minds want to know.

 

[Alex G]

Ok I'll bite. How do you run a uniformer on an impact gun. It appears attached but curious minds want to know.

Haha! The K&M actually has a 1/4” hex shaft with impact locking detect. It sets into the impact chuck just like a screw driving impact bit would, no issues! The perk of having it in the impact is it’s spin speed, much faster than a drill

the impact is a brushless Bosch Freak model-1800 in lbs of torque, with a 1/4” hex in the center of a 1/2” square drive. The same tool I use for uniformity flash holes and running screws I use to remove lug nuts and other large bolts.

 

[AJC1]

Haha! The K&M actually has a 1/4” hex shaft with impact locking detect. It sets into the impact chuck just like a screw driving impact bit would, no issues! The perk of having it in the impact is it’s spin speed, much faster than a drill

the impact is a brushless Bosch Freak model-1800 in lbs of torque, with a 1/4” hex in the center of a 1/2” square drive. The same tool I use for uniformity flash holes and running screws I use to remove lug nuts and other large bolts.

Tim the tool man Taylor approves.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

the impact is a brushless Bosch Freak model-1800 in lbs of torque, with a 1/4” hex in the center of a 1/2” square drive. The same tool I use for uniformity flash holes and running screws I use to remove lug nuts and other large bolts.

And when you go squirrel hunting, you use....wait, wait, let me guess....

A .505 Gibbs double?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

And when you go squirrel hunting, you use....wait, wait, let me guess....

A .505 Gibbs double?

Don’t be silly!

.577 Snider.

 

[MEHavey]

Personally, I have used a 58 Minie in a `63 Springfield.

 

[Alex G]

You guys crack me up haha!

also note that it’s inch pounds, not foot pounds. A typical impact driver on the market is 1400-1600 in lbs or 133 ft lbs. The Bosch is 1800 in lbs, or 150 ft lbs of max torque. The trigger is excellent, and you only gets as much power as you want.

 

[AJC1]

You guys crack me up haha!

also note that it’s inch pounds, not foot pounds. A typical impact driver on the market is 1400-1600 in lbs or 133 ft lbs. The Bosch is 1800 in lbs, or 150 ft lbs of max torque. The trigger is excellent, and you only gets as much power as you want.

Tim requires full power always.... half measures are Al's territory

 

[Charlie98]

Boy howdy! You are taking a LOT of metal out of that primer pocket...

 

[Alex G]

Boy howdy! You are taking a LOT of metal out of that primer pocket...

Not too much actually. The ones that get the most removed only lose a couple thousandths, while most are just a thousandths and squaring off the pocket (most importantly).
The big pile of shavings is what’s left after doing around 300 cases worth haha

 

[Charlie98]

Well... I have a primer pocket uniformer on my Lyman powered case prep machine... and it squares the pocket out, but it hardly ever touches the entire pocket.

 

[MEHavey]

It's only supposed to uniform the depth/square-up the bottom corners.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Well... I have a primer pocket uniformer on my Lyman powered case prep machine... and it squares the pocket out, but it hardly ever touches the entire pocket.

If you use the Lymans tool to convert a LP to LR that’s about what it looks like.