Advice Needed-Cast Bullets in 30-06 And Reduced Loads

[Alex G]

Hello all,

I need some advice regarding the use of Eggleston Munitions coated lead projectiles in 30-06. (Pictures at end)

All full-power 06 loads in the Hodgdon manual start around 2700 FPS or so, but Eggleston specifically says not to exceed 2400 FPS with these projectiles. The intent of these is primarily for freehand shooting around 1600-2200 FPS or so out of a modern bolt action 30-06. (Both comfortable and affordable to shoot as a round to work on my freehand shooting, and to hand to a friend with a 50 round box of ammo and let them blast away. Also, the advantage of low recoil for people that otherwise wouldn’t like shooting full-power 30-06.) My questions as follows:


1) Where can I find load data in the 1600-2200fps range?

2) Is there a possibility of using regular rifle powders like Win 760 that meter well and fill the case, or do I have to resort to some of the pistol powder/gallery loads or something like Trailboss?

3) Is it realistic to expect 2-3 MOA out of such a projectile and velocity?

4) Are there similar projectiles that you’d recommend over the Egglestons? I’d like to go with powder coated cast if possible. Hornady’s 150 gr FMJ’s are nice but double the price.

5) With the pistol powder type loads, how much sensitivity is there to powder location within the case? I saw one post where the shooter would have to tip his rifle muzzle up before each shot to make sure the powder was as close to the primer as possible. (Do not want that much sensitivity)
6) How much over bore diameter should I order them sized to? They offer .308-.311 in .001 increments.


Any and all advice and help are appreciated. I’ve been loading for 7 years now, and this is the first time going outside of conventional load data. (I load/have loaded 30-06 obviously, 9mm, 357 SIG, 38/357 MAG, 40 S&W, 223, and 243)


Thanks in advance!

 

[Pottimus]

Search "The Load" by Ed Harris. I just tried the Red Dot with cast bullets in an 03A3 and was very pleased. 2400 data works well. Trail Boss anyone?

 

[Charlie98]

The best powder you can get for reduced .30 loads is H4895 (as opposed to IMR4895.) There is loading data available for reduced loads with H4895, but even Hodgdon says you can just reduce normal starting loads to 60% and be OK.

There are other powders you can use for lower velocity loads, however... just using a faster powder can work, it's what I do for cast in .30-30, .308, and .348. Powders like IMR4198, H4198, RL7, and AA5744 can work well in that role. Be careful, however, and particularly with heavy bullets... faster powders can pressure spike easily, so working up is a necessity, and something like QuickLoad can help.

 

[Alex G]

Search "The Load" by Ed Harris. I just tried the Red Dot with cast bullets in an 03A3 and was very pleased. 2400 data works well. Trail Boss anyone?

Will give it a look, thanks!

The best powder you can get for reduced .30 loads is H4895 (as opposed to IMR4895.) There is loading data available for reduced loads with H4895, but even Hodgdon says you can just reduce normal starting loads to 60% and be OK.

^Interesting! I didn’t know you could use H4895 in that much of a reduced charge. Will give that a look as well!

There are other powders you can use for lower velocity loads, however... just using a faster powder can work, it's what I do for cast in .30-30, .308, and .348. Powders like IMR4198, H4198, RL7, and AA5744 can work well in that role. Be careful, however, and particularly with heavy bullets... faster powders can pressure spike easily, so working up is a necessity, and something like QuickLoad can help.

That’s exactly why I wanted to ask haha
How powder position-depended are the pistol powder loads in your experience? Also I will have to check into quick load as well. Is it available for free download or is it a purchased software?

 

[Charlie98]

No, QuickLoad is a little pricey... around $150 I think... but is an incredibly useful tool.

Those powders I listed are not pistol powders... they are fast rifle powders. In my experience, I think they are a better choice than slow (or fast) pistol powders in the same application, mostly because of case fill. I have used powders like 2400, IMR4227, and even Unique in cast rifle loads... and while they work well enough, I prefer IMR4198. Also, you will not be able to reach your target velocity (1600-2200fps) with pistol powders without pushing the pressure up, but you can easily get there with rifle powders.

 

[MEHavey]

As suggested above "The Load" of 13 grains of Red Dot
https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/1387-the-load-is-13-grains-of-red-dot/

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

And i also endorse 13 grains of red dot. Use the load often myself. You want to get into more cast boolets? I suggest pickup un Lymans 3rd and 4th cast books. Reprints of the 3rd can be found at Cornell Publications -Lyman 1980 Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd Edition (cornellpubs.com)

Found an old grouping pic with red dot load at 100 yards out of the ought 6.

 

[GooseGestapo]

10-13gr RedDot, 16.0gr Unique, 16-24.0gr #2400. 30-36.0gr H4895.
The H4895gr loads will cycle a M1 Garand or similar gas operated action.
The cast bullet bench rest competition shooters prefer #2400 20gr with a tuft of Dacron pillow stuffing over powder. It will show you how accurate the bullet and rifle are. I MUCH prefer to size to .311”.
I’ve shot Garand matches with cast bullets (200yds) and shot a considerable amount of game with cast bullets.

You’ll also need to use either a Lee Universal Neck expander or Lyman M die neck expander. Lightly crimp in separate step.
Go to castboolits.com for a vast amount of cast bullet info.
Also, get the Lyman cast bullet manual, as well as the Lee#2. Both have lots of cast bullet data.

 

[Alex G]

No, QuickLoad is a little pricey... around $150 I think... but is an incredibly useful tool.

^I think I know what I’ll be saving for soon!

Those powders I listed are not pistol powders... they are fast rifle powders. In my experience, I think they are a better choice than slow (or fast) pistol powders in the same application, mostly because of case fill.

My apologies, I knew that and my thought process went back to pistol powders as I was making the reply.

10-13gr RedDot, 16.0gr Unique, 16-24.0gr #2400. 30-36.0gr H4895.
The H4895gr loads will cycle a M1 Garand or similar gas operated action.

Interesting! I like the case fill on the H4895, but the economy of Unique is interesting to note as well. Are you guys using the Red Dot/Unique with just hard cast, or powder coated projectiles?

You’ll also need to use either a Lee Universal Neck expander or Lyman M die neck expander. Lightly crimp in separate step.
Go to castboolits.com for a vast amount of cast bullet info.

Yep! Don’t want to be shaving off the coating when trying to seat. How important is it to crimp in a separate step? I’ve typically used my seating die to apply a light crimp, and haven’t had any issues in either rifle or pistol if it’s set up right, including with cast bullets.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I use the shot gun powders with the Hi-tek coated and copper plated. I also load .223 fmj 55 bullets with 9 grains red dot,green dot and just started working with blue dot with the .223. Im nailing the gongs at 200 yards with the .223. Doing something right.

 

[Charlie98]

My apologies, I knew that and my thought process went back to pistol powders as I was making the reply.

Quite alright... but I wanted to make sure.

+1 on the Lyman M-Die. FWIW, as long as it's properly set up, you can seat and crimp in the same step.

 

[Alex G]

Also, get the Lyman cast bullet manual, as well as the Lee#2. Both have lots of cast bullet data.

The Lyman I’ve heard of but don’t have. Is the Lee #2 the same as Lee’s main handbook of reloading, 2nd edition?

Quite alright... but I wanted to make sure.

+1 on the Lyman M-Die. FWIW, as long as it's properly set up, you can seat and crimp in the same step.

Understandably so. I’ve got the M-Die for 9mm and it’s fantastic. I’ll be loading these single stage, so the step saved helps save some time. Since I’m not crimping into a cannelure groove or needing a strong roll crimp, I may try to get away with the 2-in-1.

 

[PapaG]

Back when I was shooting a 30-06 Winchester M70 in cast bullet competition, my go-to powder was 4198. I've not tried coated bullets. My choice projectile was the Lyman 311291 sized to .309, heat treated linotype, Hornady gas check. Cases neck reamed, 24 grains of 4198 and a kapok filler. IIRC, about 1900 fs and slightly over MOA at 100 yards. (original Weaver steel 4X scope.
I'm thinking of doing this again but will try 5744 powder this time.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Lee#2 = Lee 2nd Ed.

You’ll shave a ring of lead/coating if you seat/crimp at same time.

I treat coated same as conventional lube. The only time I’ve gotten good results with coated un-gaschecked bullets is with the .30Carbine. Otherwise, I gascheck the rifle bullets after powder coating. However, since I’m sizing and gaschecking already, I skip the time consuming powder coating and lube as always before.

I can get match accuracy with cast up to 2,250fps with most diameters. That’s near .458magnum level with a .45/70, so not a real handicap for out to 300yds so, 98% of my shooting is with cast bullets.

 

[AJC1]

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

As a side. Speers newest book has reduced rifle loads. The bigger your loading library the better off you will be. I like having data at my finger tips. I do not have a computer or cell in the loading room. I also look the door too. The less distractions the better. Every time i made an error was because someone was bugging me. Didn't take long to learn to shut off the outside world.

 

[reddog81]

If you are going for reduced loads using H4895 make sure to review post #15. Post number 15 has the accurate formula listed. Other advice given earlier in the thread is incorrect.

60% of Hodgdon max loads, Not 60% of starting loads. Not 60% of other people's max loads, 60% of Hodgdon's max load.

 

[Alex G]

60% of Hodgdon max loads, Not 60% of starting loads. Not 60% of other people's max loads, 60% of Hodgdon's max load.

That is correct, I’m tracking.
After I saw it mentioned (either here or in another post I was reading) I went over to Hodgdon’s website and looked at their details there

 

[brewer12345]

I shoot 3006 with cast using unique,2400 and 4198. All work well in different applications. Get a Lyman cast bullet loading manual.

 

[greyling22]

This is the page out of modern reloading 2nd edition by richard lee, in the section about reduced loads for cast bullets.

 

[AJC1]

I shoot 3006 with cast using unique,2400 and 4198. All work well in different applications. Get a Lyman cast bullet loading manual.

You may want to give 4227 a whirl it's good times to I prefer it over unique

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

This is the page out of modern reloading 2nd edition by richard lee, in the section about reduced loads for cast bullets.
View attachment 1017657

Im gonna check that out. Never noticed that area in my book. Thanks for posting it,

 

[Charlie98]

Other advice given earlier in the thread is incorrect.

I was trying to find that explanation at Hodgdon's site before I posted but couldn't... they must have it buried somewhere. I was going off memory... thanks for the correction.

 

[brewer12345]

You may want to give 4227 a whirl it's good times to I prefer it over unique

Will keep it in mind if and when the good times ever come around again.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

greyling22, i can not find the cast loads area for rifle in the lee book. What page is it? Lee's 2nd correct?