Advice Needed-Cast Bullets in 30-06 And Reduced Loads

[35 Whelen]

Hello all,

I need some advice regarding the use of Eggleston Munitions coated lead projectiles in 30-06. (Pictures at end)

All full-power 06 loads in the Hodgdon manual start around 2700 FPS or so, but Eggleston specifically says not to exceed 2400 FPS with these projectiles. The intent of these is primarily for freehand shooting around 1600-2200 FPS or so out of a modern bolt action 30-06. (Both comfortable and affordable to shoot as a round to work on my freehand shooting, and to hand to a friend with a 50 round box of ammo and let them blast away. Also, the advantage of low recoil for people that otherwise wouldn’t like shooting full-power 30-06.) My questions as follows:


1) Where can I find load data in the 1600-2200fps range?

2) Is there a possibility of using regular rifle powders like Win 760 that meter well and fill the case, or do I have to resort to some of the pistol powder/gallery loads or something like Trailboss?

3) Is it realistic to expect 2-3 MOA out of such a projectile and velocity?

4) Are there similar projectiles that you’d recommend over the Egglestons? I’d like to go with powder coated cast if possible. Hornady’s 150 gr FMJ’s are nice but double the price.

5) With the pistol powder type loads, how much sensitivity is there to powder location within the case? I saw one post where the shooter would have to tip his rifle muzzle up before each shot to make sure the powder was as close to the primer as possible. (Do not want that much sensitivity)
6) How much over bore diameter should I order them sized to? They offer .308-.311 in .001 increments.


Any and all advice and help are appreciated. I’ve been loading for 7 years now, and this is the first time going outside of conventional load data. (I load/have loaded 30-06 obviously, 9mm, 357 SIG, 38/357 MAG, 40 S&W, 223, and 243)


Thanks in advance!
View attachment 1017594 View attachment 1017595 View attachment 1017596

Here's my experience and some suggestions-

1) Where can I find load data in the 1600-2200fps range?

First and foremost, forget 2200 fps, in fact I get the best accuracy in the 1400-1600 fps range. If you're just target shooting at relatively short ranges of 100-200 yds., there's really no need for any more velocity.

2) Is there a possibility of using regular rifle powders like Win 760 that meter well and fill the case, or do I have to resort to some of the pistol powder/gallery loads or something like Trailboss?

I've messed around with regular rifle powders in the '06, but powders such as Red Dot, Unique, AA#7 (a REAL sleeper), and AL2400 work so well, I've gone completely to them.

3) Is it realistic to expect 2-3 MOA out of such a projectile and velocity?

I've never loaded PC bullets, only my own cast and traditionally lubed bullets. I'm getting under 2" at 100 yds., and sometimes under 4" at 200 yds., with 1903A3's and issue sights, so with a scope-sighted modern rifle, you should get much better. I picked this 03A3 up at a pawn shop a few months ago and it loves cast bullets.



This one is a "rescued" drill rifle-



4) Are there similar projectiles that you’d recommend over the Egglestons? I’d like to go with powder coated cast if possible. Hornady’s 150 gr FMJ’s are nice but double the price.

Again, I cast my own. On a side note, I have tried the Hornady 150 gr. FMJ's in a few K-31's and they are smoking accurate, even with reduced loads.

5) With the pistol powder type loads, how much sensitivity is there to powder location within the case? I saw one post where the shooter would have to tip his rifle muzzle up before each shot to make sure the powder was as close to the primer as possible. (Do not want that much sensitivity)

Like I said, I competed High Power using cast loads. I used Bullseye, Red Dot, AA#7 and 2400. No position sensitivity at all, even during rapid fire strings. But Red Dot is notoriously position INsensitive.

6) How much over bore diameter should I order them sized to? They offer .308-.311 in .001 increments.

That's a good question. When I was competing with my K-31, the bullet I used would barely touch the sides of a .309" die but shot very well. In the '06, I sized .309", .310" and .311" and didn't see any appreciable difference.

35W

 

[Alex G]

This is the page out of modern reloading 2nd edition by richard lee, in the section about reduced loads for cast bullets.
View attachment 1017657

^Interesting, I thought I have lees second, but I’ve never seen that data either. What page is it on?

Im gonna check that out. Never noticed that area in my book. Thanks for posting it,

^Same!

First and foremost, forget 2200 fps, in fact I get the best accuracy in the 1400-1600 fps range. If you're just target shooting at relatively short ranges of 100-200 yds., there's really no need for any more velocity.

Interesting…what’s the drop like at that low of speeds?

I've messed around with regular rifle powders in the '06, but powders such as Red Dot, Unique, AA#7 (a REAL sleeper), and AL2400 work so well, I've gone completely to them.

Tell me more about these, if you don’t mind and your success with them. I run AA#7 in my 357 SIG pistol loads, so I’ve got a bunch of it just sitting around here. Of the 4, which would you pick for the 150 grain, and which for the 200 grain range?

When I was competing with my K-31, the bullet I used would barely touch the sides of a .309" die but shot very well. In the '06, I sized .309", .310" and .311" and didn't see any appreciable difference.

Would it be safe to order the projos .002 over bore dia. just to ensure a good gas seal and no flame cutting?

 

[Alex G]

This is the page out of modern reloading 2nd edition by richard lee, in the section about reduced loads for cast bullets.
View attachment 1017657

Do they have load data for lighter bullets (150 grain range) as well? I cannot find the cast data in my Lee manual. Thanks!

 

[Pottimus]

Is all firing complete!...............Just a minute....Spack....Okay...

Some rounds took a while to reach the X ring....

 

[forrest r]

Click on the link to download the free manuals.

Lyman 48th reloading manual
http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Man...ding Handbook - 48th Edition - 2002 - ocr.pdf

Lyman cast bullet 3rd edition
http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Man...et Handbook - 3rd Edition - 1980 - Reduce.pdf

Do a little downloading/reading and before you get too involved you have to make sure you're opening/flaring the mouths of your cases enough that you don't shave/scrape off the pc coating when seating the bullet.

After you get that sorted out I'd be looking at the different pistol powders you have laying around and start testing. 2" 10-shot groups is doable without too much effort at 100yds. Once you get to that level you'll have an idea of the bullet/pressure curve your rifle is happy with. Then it get's interesting working on cutting the groups down to 1 1/2" & less.

good luck

 

[GooseGestapo]

It’s in the front, under loading techniques. Use the index! I’m not at home so I can’t flip to it...
Mine is so used, it just falls open to it.

Yes, they have 113gr to 200gr loads.
My most accurate H4895 load is the Lee 200gr RNGC over 34.5gr of H4895 for 2,050fps. (24”bbl M1 Garand. From my two Garands, 03-A3, or P17 Eddystone, they shoot at or under 2”@100yds.
For hunting I file a .250” flat on the tip and drill a 3/32” hole 3/8” deep. Kills deer like lightning! Penetration to equal or exceed a Nosler 200gr Partition. Cost .07, not $1.07!

My preferred cast bullet gun however is my Marlin M336C in .35Rem. Likewise to ‘06, it runs 1,950fps with an RCBS 200gr FNGC (218gr as cast) over 34.0gr H4895. Makes bigger holes than the .30cal... Lighter rifle, too, and 20” bbl handles better. (But, it likes BLC2 @39.0gr even better for 2,050fps. Big Medicine!)

 

[Alex G]

Do a little downloading/reading and before you get too involved you have to make sure you're opening/flaring the mouths of your cases enough that you don't shave/scrape off the pc coating when seating the bullet.

^Thanks and will do! I’ve loaded cast before, so the flaring/expanding won’t be an issue.

After you get that sorted out I'd be looking at the different pistol powders you have laying around and start testing.

My main 3 at the moment are CFE Pistol, AA#5, and AA#7. (All 3 of which data appears to be nonexistent for)

It’s in the front, under loading techniques. Use the index! I’m not at home so I can’t flip to it...
Mine is so used, it just falls open to it.

That’s so strange. I’ve read that manual 3-4 times and don’t remember that section. Looks like I’ll have to look when I get home from work!

Yes, they have 113gr to 200gr loads.
My most accurate H4895 load is the Lee 200gr RNGC over 34.5gr of H4895 for 2,050fps. (24”bbl M1 Garand. From my two Garands, 03-A3, or P17 Eddystone, they shoot at or under 2”@100yds.

Nice! Would you be able to send a picture of the lighter projo load data as well? Thanks!

 

[Charlie98]

Interesting…what’s the drop like at that low of speeds?

I shoot cast rifle at some fair distances... longest I've shot is 1244yds. I tend to push my lighter bullets a little faster... I have my 170grn .308 bullets moving along at about 1800fps, and my 200grn .348 bullets 2200fps... simply to reach my targets... and anything out to about 600yds within the adjustable range of my Williams peep sights. Shooting closer ranges... 100-200yds is not that difficult as long as there is some adjustability in your rear sight, or a simple way to correct for elevation... i.e. 'hold over.' I've shot 500yds with my 4" .41 revolver, hitting 6 for 6, by using Elmer Keith's suggestion to 'hold more front sight; ' I simply put the rear sight at the bottom of the front ramp, and used it that way... it was quite effective.

150grn and 200grn cast bullets out of a .30-06 should be very easy. You will have to find what velocity range works for your situation and distances, and within what adjustability your sights offer.

You also asked about bullet diameter... the rifle will tell you that. I have a nice pre-war Savage 99 in .30-30. Shooting my general purpose .309" cast 170grn bullet, the groups turned into a shotgun pattern above 1400fps... because the bullet was undersized for the bore. A switch to a .310" bullet, all else being equal, tightened everything up very nicely... so if your accuracy expectations aren't being met, having a good look at bullet size can help out.

 

[35 Whelen]

Interesting…what’s the drop like at that low of speeds?

Tell me more about these, if you don’t mind and your success with them. I run AA#7 in my 357 SIG pistol loads, so I’ve got a bunch of it just sitting around here. Of the 4, which would you pick for the 150 grain, and which for the 200 grain range?

Would it be safe to order the projos .002 over bore dia. just to ensure a good gas seal and no flame cutting?

I have no idea what the drop is like as the rifles I shot them through have combat sights. If they shot low, I'd click up to the next setting, adjusting my POA if required. Regarding the targets and groups above, two of the bullets used were long, heavy bullets with ballistic coefficients in the .330-.370 range, with the exception of the Lyman 311291 which is a round nose. As far as my success, they've all seemed to universally work well in my 1903 and 1903A3's. I had another 03A3 that someone had sporterized, and had Lyman aperture front and rear sights. It shot well too.



The only '06 I've tried that refused to shoot well was an Eddystone.

As to AA#7, years ago I picked up an 8 lb. jug at a gun show because it was only $80. It sat on the shelf in my loading room for years simply because I really didn't have a use for it. After discovering how well it worked with cast in my 30'06's and 7.5x55's, well, I have maybe 1 lb. remaining.

If I had to pick one powder, I'd probably pick AA#7 for no other reason than it meters extremely well. Red Dot would be my second choice.

Like I said in my previous post, I've sized from .309" to .311" and saw no real difference in accuracy. If I was pinned down to one size, I'd compromise at .310".

35W

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

No, QuickLoad is a little pricey... around $150 I think... but is an incredibly useful tool.

Those powders I listed are not pistol powders... they are fast rifle powders. In my experience, I think they are a better choice than slow (or fast) pistol powders in the same application, mostly because of case fill. I have used powders like 2400, IMR4227, and even Unique in cast rifle loads... and while they work well enough, I prefer IMR4198. Also, you will not be able to reach your target velocity (1600-2200fps) with pistol powders without pushing the pressure up, but you can easily get there with rifle powders.

Quick reminder: long before there was such a thing as a magnum pistol powder, 2400 and 4227 were well known as THE premier small bore rifle powders which also worked well as low-pressure/low-velocity medium-bore rifle powders.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Hello all,

I need some advice regarding the use of Eggleston Munitions coated lead projectiles in 30-06. (Pictures at end)

All full-power 06 loads in the Hodgdon manual start around 2700 FPS or so, but Eggleston specifically says not to exceed 2400 FPS with these projectiles. The intent of these is primarily for freehand shooting around 1600-2200 FPS or so out of a modern bolt action 30-06. (Both comfortable and affordable to shoot as a round to work on my freehand shooting, and to hand to a friend with a 50 round box of ammo and let them blast away. Also, the advantage of low recoil for people that otherwise wouldn’t like shooting full-power 30-06.) My questions as follows:


1) Where can I find load data in the 1600-2200fps range?

2) Is there a possibility of using regular rifle powders like Win 760 that meter well and fill the case, or do I have to resort to some of the pistol powder/gallery loads or something like Trailboss?

3) Is it realistic to expect 2-3 MOA out of such a projectile and velocity?

4) Are there similar projectiles that you’d recommend over the Egglestons? I’d like to go with powder coated cast if possible. Hornady’s 150 gr FMJ’s are nice but double the price.

5) With the pistol powder type loads, how much sensitivity is there to powder location within the case? I saw one post where the shooter would have to tip his rifle muzzle up before each shot to make sure the powder was as close to the primer as possible. (Do not want that much sensitivity)
6) How much over bore diameter should I order them sized to? They offer .308-.311 in .001 increments.


Any and all advice and help are appreciated. I’ve been loading for 7 years now, and this is the first time going outside of conventional load data. (I load/have loaded 30-06 obviously, 9mm, 357 SIG, 38/357 MAG, 40 S&W, 223, and 243)


Thanks in advance!
View attachment 1017594 View attachment 1017595 View attachment 1017596

from Lyman's 44th Ed.:



In each case, the accuracy load is either 2400 or 4227 and the velocities are "around" 1600fps.

 

[greyling22]

Do they have load data for lighter bullets (150 grain range) as well? I cannot find the cast data in my Lee manual. Thanks!

they sure do. several pages of 30-06 data. The cast data was eliminated from the updated version of the 2nd edition. (why they didn't call it the 3rd edition is beyond me) Here are the other pages of 30-06 data

 

[Charlie98]

2400 and 4227 were well known as THE premier small bore rifle powders which also worked well as low-pressure/low-velocity medium-bore rifle powders.

But they aren't... sorta. I would consider them medium-pressure low-velocity rifle powders, but as soon as you try to push the charge up, the pressure spikes, much like very fast pistol powders do (TiteGroup, WST, et al...) when you are trying to push the velocity. That's why I recommend powders like IMR4198 (etc) over slow pistol powders... but that is just my .02 worth. In reality, it depends on what you expect out of your loads.

As I said, I would recommend both 2400 and IMR4227 over powders like Unique, or even RedDot... and everyone knows how much I like Unique... but I would recommend IMR4198 (or H4198/RL7/AA5744) over those, every day, and twice on Sunday. The right tool for the job.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have no need for high velocity with cast bullets. 200 meters is as far as I have gone and Harry Pope did that with a .33-40 and duplex loads.

Lacking Red Dot for The Load, I found 12 gr 700X to shoot well in .30-06. 7 gr is just kind of poofty but it will reach a hundred yards just fine.

A friend's 20 gr 2400 load was great with his Linotype bullet, but I did better with Ed Harris' 16 gr and softer bullets even out of the same mold.

Just working with powders on hand, H322 and Norma 200 were pretty good.

 

[Alex G]

As to AA#7, years ago I picked up an 8 lb. jug at a gun show because it was only $80. It sat on the shelf in my loading room for years simply because I really didn't have a use for it. After discovering how well it worked with cast in my 30'06's and 7.5x55's, well, I have maybe 1 lb. remaining.
If I had to pick one powder, I'd probably pick AA#7 for no other reason than it meters extremely well.

From your experience (and taking the data with a grain of salt of course) where did you start and end with charge weights for AA#7. That’s really appealing to me because it’s one of my main powders, I love how it meters, and it has been an excellent all around powder so far.

they sure do. several pages of 30-06 data. The cast data was eliminated from the updated version of the 2nd edition. (why they didn't call it the 3rd edition is beyond me) Here are the other pages of 30-06 data

Thank you so very much! I must have the revised second edition then, because I checked and it is the second, just doesn’t have that data

 

[Alex G]

(For that matter, if anyone could supply any quick loads data for AA#7 in 30-06, with either a 150 or 200 grain cast lead projectile, I’d be very grateful! Of course all the standard “use this data at your own risk etc etc” go without saying but there they are for legality sake haha

 

[GooseGestapo]

Lee #2, pages 140-155.
Has cast bullet data for Lee cast designs for .30-30, .308,and .30/06.
The reduced data can also be used for equal weight jacketed bullets.

 

[bluejay75]

A vote for the following powders.

2400- by the time you reach the FPS you’re looking for groups are surely going to open up.

4895, 5744, 4064, 3031, 4198 will get you there but care needs to be paid to the alloy, crimp, good lube/ coating and getting your GCs on square for best accuracy.

I used more 3031 this past year than any powder I have. Almost any rifle powder fast enough for 45/70 will work great in the speed range you’re looking for in medium bottleneck cartridges.

 

[Silver Shooter]

Hello all,

I need some advice regarding the use of Eggleston Munitions coated lead projectiles in 30-06. (Pictures at end)

All full-power 06 loads in the Hodgdon manual start around 2700 FPS or so, but Eggleston specifically says not to exceed 2400 FPS with these projectiles. The intent of these is primarily for freehand shooting around 1600-2200 FPS or so out of a modern bolt action 30-06. (Both comfortable and affordable to shoot as a round to work on my freehand shooting, and to hand to a friend with a 50 round box of ammo and let them blast away. Also, the advantage of low recoil for people that otherwise wouldn’t like shooting full-power 30-06.) My questions as follows:


1) Where can I find load data in the 1600-2200fps range?

2) Is there a possibility of using regular rifle powders like Win 760 that meter well and fill the case, or do I have to resort to some of the pistol powder/gallery loads or something like Trailboss?

3) Is it realistic to expect 2-3 MOA out of such a projectile and velocity?

4) Are there similar projectiles that you’d recommend over the Egglestons? I’d like to go with powder coated cast if possible. Hornady’s 150 gr FMJ’s are nice but double the price.

5) With the pistol powder type loads, how much sensitivity is there to powder location within the case? I saw one post where the shooter would have to tip his rifle muzzle up before each shot to make sure the powder was as close to the primer as possible. (Do not want that much sensitivity)
6) How much over bore diameter should I order them sized to? They offer .308-.311 in .001 increments.


Any and all advice and help are appreciated. I’ve been loading for 7 years now, and this is the first time going outside of conventional load data. (I load/have loaded 30-06 obviously, 9mm, 357 SIG, 38/357 MAG, 40 S&W, 223, and 243)


Thanks in advance!
View attachment 1017594 View attachment 1017595 View attachment 1017596

Hello Alex,
I ran across some interesting load data for reduced 30-06 rounds. The people who make Shooters World propellant have a powder called Buffalo Rifle that can be used for some very low velocity 30-06 rounds. They have a reloading guide that you can download.

 

[Alex G]

As to AA#7, years ago I picked up an 8 lb. jug at a gun show because it was only $80. It sat on the shelf in my loading room for years simply because I really didn't have a use for it. After discovering how well it worked with cast in my 30'06's and 7.5x55's, well, I have maybe 1 lb. remaining.

If I had to pick one powder, I'd probably pick AA#7 for no other reason than it meters extremely well.

Quick reminder: long before there was such a thing as a magnum pistol powder, 2400 and 4227 were well known as THE premier small bore rifle powders which also worked well as low-pressure/low-velocity medium-bore rifle powders.

In each case, the accuracy load is either 2400 or 4227 and the velocities are "around" 1600fps.

As I said, I would recommend both 2400 and IMR4227 over powders like Unique, or even RedDot..

^Well guys, I was able to pick up a pound of IMR 4227 and combine it with a primer order I put in a bit ago. Will give it a shot (literally!) and see how it does! I think just for experimentation purposes as well, I’m going to try out loading with AA#7 and see what kind of results I get. There isn’t much data out there (only a couple references to it) but knowing it’s burn rate compared to similar powders that are listed in published data, and it’s design to be relatively case volume insensitive, I’m optimistic. Still need to develop my load range to test over, but as always, starting low, working up, checking brass, and being best friends with my chrono

Hello Alex,
I ran across some interesting load data for reduced 30-06 rounds. The people who make Shooters World propellant have a powder called Buffalo Rifle that can be used for some very low velocity 30-06 rounds. They have a reloading guide that you can download.

Interesting, I hadn’t actually heard of it. Do you know what powder it’s comparable to?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

^Well guys, I was able to pick up a pound of IMR 4227 and combine it with a primer order I put in a bit ago. Will give it a shot (literally!) and see how it does! I think just for experimentation purposes as well, I’m going to try out loading with AA#7 and see what kind of results I get. There isn’t much data out there (only a couple references to it) but knowing it’s burn rate compared to similar powders that are listed in published data, and it’s design to be relatively case volume insensitive, I’m optimistic. Still need to develop my load range to test over, but as always, starting low, working up, checking brass, and being best friends with my chrono

Interesting, I hadn’t actually heard of it. Do you know what powder it’s comparable to?

I hadn't either so I looked it up. According to their burn-rate chart, Buffalo Rifle is in the same envelope as H110/W296, IMR 4227, H/IMR 4198, VV N110 & N120, Lovex D060, AA#5744 and Alliant 300-MP. I'm already pretty stocked up on IMR 4227 and H110 so it's not as big a deal for me but I am interested if you or someone else tries it out, head-to-head with 110/296 or IMR 4227.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Interesting, I hadn’t actually heard of it. Do you know what powder it’s comparable to?

Buffalo Rifle is generally compared to 5744.

Some claim that it is actually an older version of 5744, as it is made by the manufacturer that originated the powder (5744).

I use 5744 data to load Buffalo Rifle powder. Having said that, I don't get anywhere close to max loads.

 

[Charlie98]

Buffalo Rifle is generally compared to 5744.

Some claim that it is actually an older version of 5744, as it is made by the manufacturer that originated the powder (5744).

That is what I've heard as well.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Some fun stuff, perhaps. Popgun style.

 

[Silver Shooter]

Nice data,

I am new to reloading rifle ammo. It is nice to know that one can load too such low velocity if desired. I appreciate this information. I own a number of different rifles, but have never taken time to do reloading for them until recently. My Father passed down to me a 30-06, and a Marlin 30-30. I have been reloading pistol ammo since 1985, and have had a lot of fun doing so. I am just about to dive into the Long Gun end of the spectrum. Looking forward to it. Thanks again for posting the low velocity data.