Another vote for imr4227 in cast rifle.
700x and titewad make good 900-1000 fps loads.
Advice Needed-Cast Bullets in 30-06 And Reduced Loads
- Thread starter Alex G
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700x and titewad make good 900-1000 fps loads.
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Alex G
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Welcome to the rifle world! With rifle loads as you’ll see in previous comments/posts, the big thing is to make sure the powder you’re using can be reduced. There are some of the slower rifle powders that can cause serious safety issues reduced, and it’s just something to be aware of.
Glad I decided to try out some 4227! Should be here today and I may or may not get some loaded for the range trip this weekend, depending on when my projos arrive.
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Alex G
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Got a chance to test preliminary results-
Target 4 below is the best group out of the first series I fired, ranging from 20 to 26 grains of IMR 4227. Will be testing in finer grain increments around the 26 grain spot.
Also tested the AA#7 and was astounded by the chrono data-while the velocity was only around 1600, the ES and SD were much lower than I was expecting. Zero pressure signs whatsoever. Looking to work that load up a little higher in velocity and see what happens to accuracy along the way.
Red projectiles are 200 grain sized to .310, blue projectiles are 150 grain sized to .310. I decided to order .002 oversized to reduce/eliminate the chance of gas/flame cutting, which has so far worked very well! No signs of leading or residue whatsoever.
Target 4 below is the best group out of the first series I fired, ranging from 20 to 26 grains of IMR 4227. Will be testing in finer grain increments around the 26 grain spot.
Also tested the AA#7 and was astounded by the chrono data-while the velocity was only around 1600, the ES and SD were much lower than I was expecting. Zero pressure signs whatsoever. Looking to work that load up a little higher in velocity and see what happens to accuracy along the way.
Red projectiles are 200 grain sized to .310, blue projectiles are 150 grain sized to .310. I decided to order .002 oversized to reduce/eliminate the chance of gas/flame cutting, which has so far worked very well! No signs of leading or residue whatsoever.
AJC1
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This is the bigger version of my 308 tests. I had a great time doing it and hope your adventure is equally rewarding. Unique was snappy and wasnt as accurate for me. 4227 upper loads test box built and ready. 2400 is next up.
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Alex G
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Very nice! 4227 seems promising so far, I was just able to get targets prepped last night, and the next set of test loads put together this morning. Planning to shoot them Saturday morning hopefully!
AJC1
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I have 150s and 173 cast and traditional lubed that my dad had for 30-30 loads. We dont own a 30 30 so I figure I would use them up in 308. Being they were for lower velosity stuff I went the pistol powder route. I would like to also test reloader 7 and 4198 but i haven't seen those in a while.
I like your blue bullets.
I like your blue bullets.
Charlie98
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You are prolly getting 100% burn with AA#7, but likely only high 90’s with IMR4227, contributing to your good numbers.
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Alex G
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Thanks! They’re available from Eggleston Munitions under their rifle bullet section if you wanted to try some! I’m not one for crazy colors, but I do think the blue and red fit well contrasted against the brass haha
This is a valid point. Also being a super fine ball powder probably means each granule can catch and burn more fully
Charlie98
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If I'm reading it right... 26.4grn is your Huckleberry.
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Alex G
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Which target #? I was thinking 26.4 was one of the less agreeable groups and chrono data points.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I think I’d have to go with 25.8 or 26.0 and possibly test 25.9 as a potential Sweetheart load.
AJC1
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I'm all about 26.0 although I would improve your data set by loading .1 on both sides.
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Charlie98
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Sorry... I meant 26.0grn, target #5. 25.8-26.0grn seem to show very consistent grouping, I would probably try a 10-round group of both of those, and, assuming you get similar performance, call it a day.
bluejay75
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Good looking bullets and excellent shooting and cataloging skills! Check your barrel for leading and fouling. 6-8 May have been impacted by it. Some of my cast rifle loads foul as quickly as 25-30 shots. Powder coat and GCs help you go faster but it’s not 100% guaranteed they won’t foul your barrel at some point. Don’t ask me how I know. If it is a worn barrel (200-400 jacketed) it’s less of an issue. 30 caliber barrels are easy to clean if you do happen to foul it up BTW.
Edit: load number 5 is ten feet tall when it comes to accuracy expectations from a plain base bullet!
Edit: load number 5 is ten feet tall when it comes to accuracy expectations from a plain base bullet!
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AJC1
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Load at least 5 shot groups around your 26.0 load. Considering it's the hottest time of the year I would select the highest part of the node and hopefully you will stay in as the weather cools. Good windows of faster powders are going to be smaller. I did not see temprature or humidity but if you can still capture that data I would add it to the data set. If its 30 degrees cooler and you loose your tune it will be obvious to go up a tenth or two. If this is a target load I shoot 10 round verification targets. If its hunting 3 will work.
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Alex G
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Wow, thanks for all the input, guys!!
Agreed!
Yep! Planning to do larger test groups of at least three tenths on each side of that, with each test group going by one tenth increments.
That’s the plan! Going to test in that range to final verify.
Thanks!! The rifle is a T/C venture, and I’ve got probably 5-600 rounds of jacketed projectiles down the bore. No leading or other serious fouling, and a little bit of Hoppes No 9 soaked for a few hours, then a Parker Hale style jag with some dry patches, then some CLP soaked patches and the bore looks clean as new! After the targets shown above, I let the rifle cool a little bit while I switched targets, and also tested some 200 grain round nose loads. While not my favorite because they’re more expensive than the 150’s and impact a different point than I’m zeroed to, there were some cloverleaf groups as well that were impressive.
That’s a really good idea actually, thanks for the tip! My chrono app does record temperature which is good, but not humidity. How temperature sensitive is IMR 4227? I use IMR 4350 for my 165 Nosler BT’s that was developed to shoot sub MOA in the fall/winter, but when I tested them the other say in 95 degree weather they gave me a 3” group at 100. Needless to say when I developed that load 6 years ago I didn’t take that into consideration.
AJC1
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It's an extruded powder so it's better than other form factors. It's old technology so no stability additives. It's not varget but my opinion is it's better than a lot of others.
AJC1
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Your charts may be more telling with each shot plotted on the graph to show how tight the 26.0 grains were. People look for dips but the es and sd were fantastic in 25.8 and 26.0 which matters.
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Alex G
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Good to know!
Agreed. I was blown away when I looked at the ES and SD for these loads. Granted they are hand trickled, brass annealed, trimmed and the whole nine yards, but they’re also cast bullets going out of a rifle that has a lot of unused case volume, so I expected much worse and was very pleasantly surprised to say the least!
Lofted batting cut into 1/2" squares and then lofted (pulled/stretched out more) put in the 30-06 cases on top of your powder will take up the extra case volume. It will also keep the powder in the bottom of the case by the primer where it should be. This will cut down the es #'s
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Morning-Glory-Great-Glory-III-Extra-Loft-Polyester-Batting/51800360
It's a lot easier to get tight groups @ lower velocities with cast bullets in bottle necked rifle cases. The 30-06 is a good case for cast bullets with it's long neck that provides excellent neck tension along with keeping the bullet's base out of the boiler room.
When you start getting over 2100fps with a 1 in 10 twist bbl little thing show up in a big way on your targets with those cast bullets doing +/- 150,000rpms.
Your pressures are good, in the +/- 30,000psi range.
All of these things should be kept in mind (wrote down somewhere) when testing different loads/powders/bullets. You'll find that once you've reached the "max" threshold of either pressure or rpm's. That the only way to improve on velocity/accuracy is with slower burning powders. You'll also be able to pick out poorly designed bullets this way.
FWIW:
2400, rx-7, 4227 are all good powders for accuracy with cast bullets.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Morning-Glory-Great-Glory-III-Extra-Loft-Polyester-Batting/51800360
It's a lot easier to get tight groups @ lower velocities with cast bullets in bottle necked rifle cases. The 30-06 is a good case for cast bullets with it's long neck that provides excellent neck tension along with keeping the bullet's base out of the boiler room.
When you start getting over 2100fps with a 1 in 10 twist bbl little thing show up in a big way on your targets with those cast bullets doing +/- 150,000rpms.
Your pressures are good, in the +/- 30,000psi range.
All of these things should be kept in mind (wrote down somewhere) when testing different loads/powders/bullets. You'll find that once you've reached the "max" threshold of either pressure or rpm's. That the only way to improve on velocity/accuracy is with slower burning powders. You'll also be able to pick out poorly designed bullets this way.
FWIW:
2400, rx-7, 4227 are all good powders for accuracy with cast bullets.
Charlie98
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Something else to add to your cleaning regimen after shooting cast is a 'lead clean' cloth. With the bore absolutely dry, fit a square on top of a tight jag and run it through your bore... you will be amazed what comes out the other end. The tighter the jag, the better.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I've known about using cards and lubricated or unlubricated fiber wads with black powder cartridges - I use compressed vegetable wads and sometimes a fiber wad with .38S&W and sometimes .44-40WCF BP loads - but as far as I know it's discouraged for smokeless, especially bottleneck cartridges. Barrel and chamber rings and such. I could be wrong, it happens from time-to-time.
I've seen a lot of debate over the years about using Dacron and such but the voices of much experience (Ed Harris and Charlie Dell, among a few others) typically warn against using anything for fillers. It's not meant to be used with smokeless (so-called buffers) except what's meant for shotgun pellet buffers. Besides, from the looks of it, Alex has that load dialed in pretty good. I'd say he doesn't need to change a thing, especially if a 25.9gr load turns out to be an all-weather Sweetheart. Either way, with the tested 25.8 or 26.0gr loads, it don't need much improving.
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AJC1
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Based on the level of success and my experience with that powder doing exactly the same thing in 308 a filler is a solution looking for a problem.I've known about using cards and lubricated or unlubricated fiber wads with black powder cartridges - I use compressed vegetable wads and sometimes a fiber wad with .38S&W and sometimes .44-40WCF BP loads - but as far as I know it's discouraged for smokeless, especially bottleneck cartridges. Barrel and chamber rings and such. I could be wrong, it happens from time-to-time.
Besides, from the looks of it, Alex has that load dialed in pretty good. I'd say he doesn't need to change a thing, especially if a 25.9gr load turns out to be an all-weather Sweetheart. Either way, with the tested 25.8 or 26.0gr loads, it don't need much improving.
You need to look at the big picture
While most think that the load is "dialed in" because of low es #'s. In reality you have just backed yourself into a corner.
How do you know that the higher es #'s weren't generated by the powder shifting forward when closing the bolt???
With the limited window at the 25.8gr/26.0gr you found that had low es #'s is 1"+ 3 shot groups acceptable @ 50yds???
Would the use of fillers with the other loads lower the es #'s and tighten the groups up???
Are those es #'s repeatable???
As far as ringing a bbl goes, the only way to ring a barrel using dacron is to pack/smash/stomp huge wads of it in the case. DON'T COMPRESS IT OR ANY OTHER FILLER!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't compress it you will never have a problem. That's where the word "lofted" is used.
Anyway right now you have an extremely narrow window for your powder that is producing so-so groups at best.
While most think that the load is "dialed in" because of low es #'s. In reality you have just backed yourself into a corner.
How do you know that the higher es #'s weren't generated by the powder shifting forward when closing the bolt???
With the limited window at the 25.8gr/26.0gr you found that had low es #'s is 1"+ 3 shot groups acceptable @ 50yds???
Would the use of fillers with the other loads lower the es #'s and tighten the groups up???
Are those es #'s repeatable???
As far as ringing a bbl goes, the only way to ring a barrel using dacron is to pack/smash/stomp huge wads of it in the case. DON'T COMPRESS IT OR ANY OTHER FILLER!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't compress it you will never have a problem. That's where the word "lofted" is used.
Anyway right now you have an extremely narrow window for your powder that is producing so-so groups at best.
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