Agressive Panhandling

[Trunk Monkey]

I heard on the news last night that there is a trend in Colorado Springs of something called “Aggressive Panhandling”.

According to the PIO for CSPD (Barbara Miller) these aggressive panhandlers block you from getting in your car and demand money. The example she gave was, you walk out of Wal Mart, the panhandler is leaning against your car door and tells you “If you don’t give me money I won’t let you in your car”.

(IMO that’s not panhandling, it’s strong arm robbery)

How would you react?

I don’t think a gun would be appropriate but I don’t want to close with an unknown person either.

Pepper spray? Base ball Bat? Shopping cart?

My best guess would be to tell the person I’m calling the police and to do so. If the person becomes aggressive I defend myself.

Let me also add that if the person threatens or appears to threaten my wife all bets are off and somebody is getting a beatdown of Biblical proportions

 

[Rich_S]

You can't touch them or make physical contact in any way or it would be assault. They'd love it if you assaulted them so they could then be "injured" and sue you. Calling the police is the only sensible course of action.

Or....just tell them you shop with a debit card and the cash is in the car so they'll need to step aside to let you in to get it.

 

[Loosedhorse]

You can't touch them or make physical contact in any way or it would be assault.

Actually, touching them would be (in most states) battery. As to assault, the panhandler has already committed assault (in most states) by implying physical violence unless you do what he says.

So you back away, call 911, and let LE know there is an assault in progress. Take a picture with your phone. Sign a criminal complaint.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

So you back away, call 911, and let LE know there is an assault in progress.

I might say an attempted robbery that might speed up the response time and would be true

 

[Black Butte]

Tell him that you typically provide generously for those who are less fortunate, but because he's being a pain, he gets ZERO. Then snap a picture with the cell and contact authorities.

 

[627PCFan]

I feel if you were (legally) open carrying its less of an issue as the panhandler wants nothing to do with you.

 

[308win]

I would call the police and swear out a complaint of disorderly conduct plus anything else I could induce the responding officer to include - assault, attempted robbery, etc. In Ohio disorderly conduct among many acts is:

2917.11 Disorderly conduct.


(A) No person shall recklessly cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to another by doing any of the following:

(1) Engaging in fighting, in threatening harm to persons or property, or in violent or turbulent behavior;

(2) Making unreasonable noise or an offensively coarse utterance, gesture, or display or communicating unwarranted and grossly abusive language to any person;

(3) Insulting, taunting, or challenging another, under circumstances in which that conduct is likely to provoke a violent response;

(4) Hindering or preventing the movement of persons on a public street, road, highway, or right-of-way, or to, from, within, or upon public or private property, so as to interfere with the rights of others, and by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender;

As soon as the person issues a more explicit threat, defend yourself accordingly.

 

[henschman]

It is assault, trespass to chattels, and/or robbery to forcibly prevent somebody from getting in their car or forcibly preventing them from going somewhere they have a right to be and demanding money... and under the law of all states, you have a right to defend yourself and your property using reasonable force. It would certainly be reasonable under these facts to push the bum out of your way, or push him down on the ground. And then if he continues to be aggressive, it would certainly be reasonable to beat the tar out of him. Not that any of this would keep him from filing a lawsuit against you, but you would probably win. I mean, what jury would rule in favor of a piece of filth like that, especially when they have a perfectly valid legal doctrine (self defense) to let you off the hook with?

I am just talking about what it is legal for you to do. Defending yourself with force isn't always the wisest choice though. And this robbery technique probably isn't used on the type of person who would fight anyway... more like little old ladies. Here it is probably wiser for the victim to just run away, back to a safe area with other people, and call the cops.

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

“If you don’t give me money I won’t let you in your car”.

Robbery is a bit strong, although it is in the strictest sense. Yes, Disorderly Conduct would apply. Intimidation is also a crime that could apply depending on the circumstance.

Personally, I have no problem moving someone who tried this, but that won't solve the problem in the long term, merely displace it to someone else.

I like the idea of taking a photo and calling the police to deal w/ the problem. And while waiting for them to arrive, tell the panhandler several times to move out of the way and allow entry into your vehicle.

Smart phones also have voice recorders. Record your warnings and his "threats". In Ohio, giving warnings that aren't heeded moves Disorderly Conduct up one level in severity. Putting these parasites in jail will go a long way towards solving the problem.

 

[fatcat4620]

I would walk back into the store. Demand to see the GM. Tel him/her what happened and ask to return all items purchased at their store. Also tell then I would not be back.

 

[rio nueces]

I lived in Co. Springs for years. Things got worse and worse, the panhandlers basically took over Acacia Park and all of downtown and the cops just stood by. When my wife and I arrived, the downtown area was really nice. Now people and businesses shy away.
I don't get it...what kind of gov't is this? Mayor, City Council, and Police in the Springs need to get on the same page about this.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The proper response would be to ask in a loud clear voice "Are you threatening me?" and any answer besides "NO" would give you reason to fear for your safety and act accordingly provided you did not live in one of those sissy 'duty to retreat' states.
Here in the South that type of behavior would not be tolerated.

 

[JohnM]

I can't believe some of you would fear being charged for thumping a guy pulling that.
Around here you'd be acting in self defense.
We had a similar thing happen here not too long ago, a creep was hassling a woman in a parking lot and a guy in his 70's saw it; he cold cocked the guy with his cane and when the cops got there they cuffed the creep and hauled him off to jail.
City cops watched that parking lot close for quite a while cleaning out the riff raff.

 

[CoRoMo]

Pictures/video with the phone first, back away and call the police so that they can come take a look at the pictures/video.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Owen Sparks: The proper response would be to ask in a loud clear voice "Are you threatening me?" and any answer besides "NO" would give you reason to fear for your safety and act accordingly provided you did not live in one of those sissy 'duty to retreat' states.

"Any answer besides no" does not indicate ability and opportunity to effect death or serious bodily harm, nor does it indicate jeopardy, nor does indicate immediate necessity to employ deadly force.

To "act accordingly" would not involve so doing.

I cannot imagine any panhandler responding in the affirmative to such a question, but I wold not take it upon myself to deal with him and deal with the aftermath.

 

[stumpers]

The best thing to do is call the police. Since I've calmed down a little in the past few years, I call the police quite a bit...situations like the OP's is definitely one where I would call instead of doing ANYTHING myself.

What the panhandler is doing is definitely a violation of some kind in most places. Maybe even a crime if there is threat of injury or a situation where you are not free to leave...i.e. kidnapping if taken to the extreme. Or damage to car/attempted car break-in...just tell the police what you saw and thought was going on.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I can't believe some of you would fear being charged for thumping a guy pulling that. Around here you'd be acting in self defense.

While there is some validity to that, unless there were witnesses willing to get involved it's your word against his and he's the one with all the bruises.

 

[stumpers]

by kidnapping I meant something of an unlawful detainment.

 

[Loosedhorse]

a creep was hassling a woman in a parking lot and a guy in his 70's saw it; he cold cocked the guy with his cane

Anywhere, a prosecutor is unlikely to go after a woman or a 70 year-old who claims they were a victim of young male assaulter. However, if you're an athletic 30 year-old male, and you "thump" a malnourished drug addict who then swears he was only asking for change, well, your involvement with the legal system is now at the complete discretion of the cop and the DA.

Unlike Blanche DuBois, I have no desire to depend on the kindness of strangers.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Interesting topic. There are "many shades of gray" here. Just what constitutes "aggressive" vs what constitutes "robbery" is one issue. Did the guy say flat out "money or else," or did he just imply by body language?

Would it be "brandishing" if you put your hand on your piece while asking loudly if he is threatening you?

I think each such incident is going to be a judgement call.

Hmmm... I'm reminded of the story about the old Amish guy with a shotgun who surprised a burglar: "Friend, I would not harm thee for all the world, but thee are standing where I am about to shoot."

Perhaps a couple of steps back while drawing a police sized canister of pepper spray. "I don't want to hurt you, but I'm about to Mace my car." Heh, heh...

 

[Mike1234567]

I'd just say, "Wait right here", then walk back into the store where I call 911 and ask for the store manager. The LEO's need to know but the manager needs to be aware of the issue also. Then I'd just wait for the cops. It's irritating but there's not really a more appropriate way to handle it.

 

[lemaymiami]

Sorry to hear about this sort of stuff... it usually only gets to this degree when local government, either allows it or is paralyzed by their own attorneys. I can actually remember hearing how bad things in New York were.... before Giuliani took office. It didn't take long to clean things up once the local government found the willpower.....

For those that are putting up with these kind of activities... you need to demand that your local government act or prepare for some other line of employment. Reasonable law enforcement (along with occasional creative thinking) could end this kind of stuff pretty quickly (and I'm not talking about getting physical or any kind of abuse either....).

In the years that I was on the street you could always tell when someone in the City decided not to tolerate a problem of one kind or another.... once the decision was made it never took long to end a problem. All that was needed was the will power (and a little encouragement - most chiefs of police know that it's very easy to get another chief.,...).

 

[bigfatdave]

While there is some validity to that, unless there were witnesses willing to get involved it's your word against his and he's the one with all the bruises.

my word wouldn't even enter into it ... because I'm long gone

"hey honey, I just figured out how to test out these new pepperblasters!"

Seriously, I doubt such a scumbag would hang around if there was anything beyond a balled fist and intent to use it, and if they do ... don't get their filthy hepatitis and BBP laced blood on you or get close enough for fleas/lice to jump.
My vehicles represent a signifigant investment, I wouldn't put up with someone trying to deny me access to them, particularly a parasite like that.

===

A serious thought, though ... do you really think the parasites in your city are organized enough to have a common MO? I'd bet that the "news" was 99% sensationalized off of one or two accounts.

 

[JustinJ]

We've had a number of incidents in which pan handlers actually reach into people's open windows at stop lights to grab change. Supposedly they generally belong to groups posing as charities that move from city to city and mostly employ ex cons. I've never witnessed it though.

 

[XxBulletBendeRXx]

Anywhere, a prosecutor is unlikely to go after a woman or a 70 year-old who claims they were a victim of young male assaulter. However, if you're an athletic 30 year-old male, and you "thump" a malnourished drug addict who then swears he was only asking for change, well, your involvement with the legal system is now at the complete discretion of the cop and the DA.

Unlike Blanche DuBois, I have no desire to depend on the kindness of strangers.

Ahh, I see this falls into the "threat threshold" topic once again!! And the quoted statement paints a very clear picture of what the threat threshold would be in the provided scenarios above.....
Good Post!!

I just wanted to point out once again this was simply a good post from Loosedhorse. that is all.. I will not respond to questions reguarding this matter of "threat threshold". If any question should arise. That is All!!!