Agressive Panhandling

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I don't see what paragraph one has to do with paragraph two

I don't see how I can explain it any more simply. Anyone who is carrying a gun, automatically makes any confrontation they get involved with a potential gunfight, because they brought a gun to the fight. In North Carolina at least, there is this legal concept called mutual combat. Mutual combat means BOTH PARTIES were willing participants in the affray. A legal finding of mutual combat means you have basically blown any claim of self defense you might have had out of the water. While there is no legal requirement to retreat, there is a de facto requirement not to willingly get involved in conflict. And you can bet there is video that will show the progress of events in that parking lot, even if it does not capture the words.

Dealing with the situation in an indirect manner by walking away and taking other action IS NOT "laying down and taking it." It IS NOT "being apathetic to crime and allowing it to continue." It's avoiding what could turn out to be worse trouble over what started out as a relatively trivial event.

As I said, I'm not here to tell anyone how to run their lives. If anyone here wants to escalate the monkey dance that some stumblebum started over blocking access to a vehicle's driver side door, by all means feel free. Heck, you don't even have to find an attorney beforehand and ask if that's really a good idea or not. For all I know, in your jurisdiction it might be considered a good idea - there's that much variation in laws from state to state. You might even get your name in the paper, for all I know. But it's best to know the legal light in which your own jurisdiction will view an incident such as this, before you go kicking it off.

It's a lot more painful and expensive to learn legal lessons like that after the fact...
 
I fully understand being sick of scumbags thinking they can have their way with us anytime they like. Yeah, me too. But I'm older and smarter now. Let the cops take care of it. If you're so intent on being the brave soldier then you'd better have your Last Will & Testament in order or be ready to explain why daddy contracted aids or hepatitis by being a brave bad-azz. Think about it logically.

If the store manager won't keep the fleabags away, by persistent use of law enforcement, then immediately return the groceries you just bought and vow to never come back unless he resolves the problem.

Being smart and responsible is not being a wuss.
 
Let's say this aggressive panhandler is handling his pan at a trailhead back of the beyond? Happens all the time. Can't really run to the man.. no cell service and were there, it'd be a three hour wait for salvation.
 
Certain Deaf said:
Let's say this aggressive panhandler is handling his pan at a trailhead back of the beyond? Happens all the time. Can't really run to the man.. no cell service and were there, it'd be a three hour wait for salvation.
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Sometimes you have to ask yourself "What would Thomas Galludet do?"

Seriously , you're asking an entirely different question.
 
Here in CO, any kind of deliberate, ill-intentioned intimidation is menacing, so if he blocked your access to your vehicle demanding money, he would be guilty of that and could probably be charged with attempted robbery as well. It's no longer begging/panhandling when you attempt to force someone to give you money. It's robbery, plain and simple.
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i think it's called extortion
 
Dealing with the situation in an indirect manner by walking away and taking other action IS NOT "laying down and taking it." It IS NOT "being apathetic to crime and allowing it to continue." It's avoiding what could turn out to be worse trouble over what started out as a relatively trivial event.
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It's trivial here, but not for people being shaken down.

The problem needs to be solved by the bully getting carted off to jail so he learns the error of his ways and others not be victimized by him. Anything less is Chamberlainesqe appeasement, apathy, and/or cowardice.

Ted Nugent: To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.
 
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I think you are wildly misinformed if you think going back inside the store is going to work for you.
1) You can nearly count on needing to see you insurance adjuster about your paint job after you walk back in to the store.
2) My experiance at a local Mall after having my truck broken in to was that it was definatly not their responcability. You park at your own risk signs are often in these lots.
3) It has been also my experiance that by the time you actually reach someone who is paid above minimum wage in these mega stores your vehicle could be on fire and no one inside the store would care.
I'm not sure what you think the manager will do besides call 911 and his Attorney, but I would assume (again from my experiance) not much.
As far as video tape of the incident goes, I'm not sure the store would even be legally obligated to provide it because it is private property.
I would assume if the Store really cared it wouldn't be going on in the first place, they would be calling 911 and running the bums off themselves.
 
The problem needs to be solved by the bully getting carted off to jail so he learns the error of his ways and others not be victimized by him.

I agree completely.

And how do you propose to accomplish this salubrious end without telling someone about the situation who has the authority to cart said bully off to jail?

As far as video tape of the incident goes, I'm not sure the store would even be legally obligated to provide it because it is private property.

A subpoena usually works for that...

I think you are wildly misinformed if you think going back inside the store is going to work for you.

My experience differs - the only time I've ever known of panhandlers posing an annoyance to a store's customers in the parking lot, the management called the local PD instantly upon being informed, and was willing to press the matter all the way to filing trespassing charges after said panhandlers were informed they were not welcome, if they showed up again. Of course, maybe things are different elsewhere in different jurisdictions, but here, businesses that pay local taxes get response to when they ask the local PD for help.
 
i think it's called extortion
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Though the technical definitions vary only slightly, the common use of extortion in our lexicon is usually more geared toward white collar crime. Physically approaching someone and threatening them unless they give you money is strong arm robbery.

Extortion:

1:the act or practice of extorting especially money or other property; especially : the offense committed by an official engaging in such practice

2: something extorted; especially : a gross overcharge

Robbery:

: the act or practice of robbing; specifically : larceny from the person or presence of another by violence or threat
 
In TX, I am pretty sure if you felt threatened,(which I would if I was told I couldn't enter my car) the use of force would be justified.
I would tell him, as I have my hand on my 1911 that's carried IWB, "I have a gun, move away from my car". If he made a threatening move or if I felt threatened for my life from that point..
I would take my chances with a grand jury. He is committing a felony, and in TX, you can use deadly force to stop the assailant during a felony.
 
The criminal act being committed, as described in the OP, for Colorado would be criminal extortion per CRS. 18-3-207 (1), a class 4 felony. Call the cops and let them handle it if at all possible. Situations like this can easily and quickly escalate into deadly force encounters. It's important to know the laws in the jurisdiction you happen to find yourself.
 
bob barker said:
In TX, I am pretty sure if you felt threatened,(which I would if I was told I couldn't enter my car) the use of force would be justified.
I would tell him, as I have my hand on my 1911 that's carried IWB, "I have a gun, move away from my car". If he made a threatening move or if I felt threatened for my life from that point..
I would take my chances with a grand jury. He is committing a felony, and in TX, you can use deadly force to stop the assailant during a felony.
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In Texas, the threat of deadly force is not considered a use of deadly force. Per statute, it is merely considered use of force. You may use force to stop the unlawful use of force against you, so the threat of deadly force would be a lawful use of force against an assailant. If the assailant does not stop when threatened with deadly force, you may be justifiably in fear for your life (since you would, in effect, be fighting over your gun), IWC, the use of deadly force in self defense would be justified.
 
MachIVShooter, while I appreciate your dictionary definitions, they don't match Colorado law as Snowbandit has pointed out.

I think you are wildly misinformed if you think going back inside the store is going to work for you.
1) You can nearly count on needing to see you insurance adjuster about your paint job after you walk back in to the store.
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Right, it is always better to have to talk to your health insurance provider than it is to a vehicle claims adjuster. With the health insurance provider, you have the doctors on your side to help you with justification for services performed. Yes, this is sarcasm.

If not that route, then you may need to talk to your legal "claims adjuster" after your confrontation turns lethal. The $ per hour for dealing with your lawyer is certainly cheaper than dealing with your vehicle claims adjuster (more sarcasm).

So if the panhandler has made comments to you that indicate that there is a threat to your well being (verbal) but has not made that real (physical show of force, weapon, etc.), why would you want to make sure that the panhandler's threat to your wellbeing comes true by engaging him in a fight?

Last night, local DFW Fox news reported that a Providence bank officer had finished his workout at the gym and took the elevator down to his car in the parking garage. Before the door opened, he heard glass breaking. When the door opened, he saw a man leaning inside the banker's SUV. The banker ran over to the man, grabbed him by the waist, and flung him against the wall. In the tussle, the burglar tried to stab the banker with a punch or ice pick, but the banker got him on the ground and was fighting to keep control of him when two good samaritans arrrived in a truck and asked if he needed any help. The good samaritans were talking to the burglar, not the banker. The burglar got away and the banker was lucky he didn't have his hat handed to him.

When you decide to go toe to toe with a person in a parking lot when you don't have to do so, such as with the aggressive panhandler, how confident are you that you fully understand the situation and the makeup of the opposition?
 
So at church today I asked a SGT from the the sheriff dept and a lawyer.

Sheriff said call 911 as it was unarmed robbery and they would be happy to respond. The lawyer said do not touch him unless he touches you first.
 
When I read how you would have to handle it in some of the states Thank GOD I live in Arizona.
 
Trunk Monkey said:
(IMO that’s not panhandling, it’s strong arm robbery)
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I agree.

Trunk Monkey said:
How would you react?
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I would react as though I were being robbed:

1) Using loud, outside voice, announce to the entire parking lot, "Help! I'm being robbed." At this point, most so-called "panhandlers" will flee.
2) If I'm sure the BG is gone, I'll notify the management of the incident and suggest they call the police.
3) If the BG doesn't flee, I call the police--probably 911. If watching me dial 911 causes the BG to approach in a threatening manner, I'm also prepared to introduce him to the 1911. Given the scenario in the OP, I DO NOT expect it to come to this, but I must consider it a possibility. By now there should be witnesses due to 1) above.
4) Plenty of time to discuss the incident with the store's management once the police arrive to receive my statement.
 
MachIVShooter, while I appreciate your dictionary definitions, they don't match Colorado law as Snowbandit has pointed out.
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Read the actual definitions of the laws. Robbery and extortion are more or less the same thing, but extortion is specific about the type of threat.

C.R.S. 18-3-207. Criminal extortion - aggravated extortion.

(1) A person commits criminal extortion if:

(a) The person, without legal authority and with the intent to induce another person against that other person's will to perform an act or to refrain from performing a lawful act, makes a substantial threat to confine or restrain, cause economic hardship or bodily injury to, or damage the property or reputation of, the threatened person or another person; and

(b) The person threatens to cause the results described in paragraph (a) of this subsection (1) by:

(I) Performing or causing an unlawful act to be performed; or

(II) Invoking action by a third party, including but not limited to, the state or any of its political subdivisions, whose interests are not substantially related to the interests pursued by the person making the threat.

(1.5) A person commits criminal extortion if the person, with the intent to induce another person against that other person's will to give the person money or another item of value, threatens to report to law enforcement officials the immigration status of the threatened person or another person.

(2) A person commits aggravated criminal extortion if, in addition to the acts described in subsection (1) of this section, the person threatens to cause the results described in paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of this section by means of chemical, biological, or harmful radioactive agents, weapons, or poison.

(3) For the purposes of this section, "substantial threat" means a threat that is reasonably likely to induce a belief that the threat will be carried out and is one that threatens that significant confinement, restraint, injury, or damage will occur.

(4) Criminal extortion, as described in subsections (1) and (1.5) of this section, is a class 4 felony. Aggravated criminal extortion, as described in subsection (2) of this section, is a class 3 felony.

C.R.S. 18-4-301. Robbery.

Statute text

(1) A person who knowingly takes anything of value from the person or presence of another by the use of force, threats, or intimidation commits robbery.

(2) Robbery is a class 4 felony.



Not that it really matters what text the prosecutor chose, since they're both class 4 felonies. Just saying, any type of threat or intimidation to get someone's possessions is robbery, while extortion has much more specific parameters. If the bum says "give me money or I'm not moving", it's intimidation, hence simple robbery. If the bum says "go back in the store and buy me a sandwich or I'm gonna mess up your car", it's extortion.
 
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lostone1413 said:
Odds here to be very very strong if you said he said he was going to kill you and he reached under his shirt you can bet it would go down as self defense
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Please correct me if I read this wrong but are you suggesting lying to the police about what happened?
 
Certaindeaf said:
Let's say this aggressive panhandler is handling his pan at a trailhead back of the beyond? Happens all the time. Can't really run to the man.. no cell service and were there, it'd be a three hour wait for salvation.
Click to expand...

That's a very different scenario... back woods vs. a busy store parking lot. I'd still back off especially if I had loved ones with me. It's not a good idea to confront the punk because family could be hurt or killed and even if one is alone and willing to stand up to the scumbag there are no witness on your side to defend you in court. If one is forced to defend himself then so-be-it. However, that could happen in the busy parking lot too but at least you may have witnesses willing to testify on your behalf. Also, in the woods, one can't see how many of the scumbag's friends are hiding.
 
^
I hear you. Yes, it is a different scenario. Just thought I'd try to jog some brain cells for the common good.

It just seemed that OP had already answered his own question in the OP and then hammered me for looking outside of his set box. Anyway.
 
bob barker said:
In TX, I am pretty sure if you felt threatened,(which I would if I was told I couldn't enter my car) the use of force would be justified.
I would tell him, as I have my hand on my 1911 that's carried IWB, "I have a gun, move away from my car". If he made a threatening move or if I felt threatened for my life from that point..
I would take my chances with a grand jury. He is committing a felony, and in TX, you can use deadly force to stop the assailant during a felony.
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I know nothing about the law west of the Pecos. To threaten, and possibly use deadly force against someone leaning against your car, to me, is way out there.

Even to engage a pan handler in fist a cuffs, is beyond my comprehension.

Nobody assaulted the OP, or is trying to break in the car.

The perp is intentionally being a pest, so he will be thrown money, just to go away.

Does this mean when a certain very annoying religious group rings my door bell, I have legal justification to empty a 30 round magazine of green tips from my AR into the God peddlers?

Or, when Mr Peepers mutt is taking a crap in my front yard, I can take him out with my M-1? After yelling "Get off my lawn" ?

I do not agree with Mr. Barker.
 
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